Sage/Sorc needs a nerf!!

[mondose]

however, that being said....WAAAAAAY too much force, i actually need to work if i want to spend it all...which should not happen, make base force around 300, with the 400 upgrade and i think it would be more balanced

 

wayyy to much force?

 

play a healer and its where it needs to be

 

scrubs shouldnt make balance decisions x.x its part of the reason why this game is already messed up

[longgrassgrows]

wayyy to much force?

 

play a healer and its where it needs to be

 

scrubs shouldnt make balance decisions x.x its part of the reason why this game is already messed up

 

this is the problem...for sorc heals, force runs out fast, i have hear this, have not play on healing spec....however for DPS, it is way to much force...dont know how devs would fix sooooo....

 

Although honestly, i dont really care either way, i have not had problems with sorcs....i eat them for breakfast

Edited February 7, 2012 by longgrassgrows

[Vales]

This is the kinda stuff I'm talking about. Thank you, as someone who hasn't had as much playtime with this class I'm clearly not the most knowledgeable person. It's nice to get someone who is willing to work with me on getting a firmer grasp on it.

 

Since full TK is such a potent PvP specc.

 

wayyy to much force?

 

play a healer and its where it needs to be

 

scrubs shouldnt make balance decisions x.x its part of the reason why this game is already messed up

 

And if it were for scrubs like you the game would have been ruined before beta.

Edited February 7, 2012 by Vales

[mondose]

Not getting hit is the highest form of survivablity. Sure you have to run for it to work but you running leaves all classes in a predicament. Chase you and eventually kill you wasting lots of time and screwing us over, or we let you run you heal up and you are back 5-10 seconds later again screwing us over. This is not the same as kiting.

 

another bad bad player

 

 

highest form of survivability is actually being able to take no damage and do damage back

 

heres the problem with force speed it applies no pressure to the people attacking so its either we die or we dont

 

the problem with your statement is that you seem to think in order to win you have to kill the sorc/sage

 

if you force a sage to force speed away you made him leave the point so he isnt doing any utility for the team and he is being a waste of space

 

its not a kill but it is certainly a beating a sage

 

yes he might come back but he will have less cooldowns then before and you can just beat him back til he runs again.

 

they arent op people just do not understand how to beat them

[sithgrizley]

Again you are describing a situation where a ranged attack class is trying to gain...range and LOS in order to nuke and do damage. Yes, they can open with dots, no in fact they SHOULD open with dots if they are worth their salt, their only real problem is melee range and they can only knockback you once. How do you believe they should work ? Again, consider that not all sorcs are hybrids. Purely healing speced sorcs do not have a snare on knockback or exploding shields. Yes, they will still heal and give you a hard time, but they will be healing THEMSELVES and NOT the team. Balance/Lightning sorcs can't heal for anything outside medpacks and if you do allow them to LOS and cast a 3 second Deliverance, ah well, good game.

 

If a class has a victory condition of "start at range" and all fights start at range don't you think that's a balance issue? Especially combined with a melee avoidance toolkit on the magnitude that Sorcs have?

 

Obviously as hp totals rise if damage doesn't scale to match it then the balance starts to swing away from the ranged classes and more towards melee as in theory the fights will end before the melee closes less often. If that is what the intended is then I guess we will just have to see.

 

All sorcs can heal, even if they don't spec for it. Yes, it's not as good as a specced healer, no it's not something they will be doing all the time. But in practice offspec healing is "good enough" in more situations than not. Possibly solutions to that would nerfing baseline healing while improving the healing related talents to compensate.

 

And yes a Sorc can always pop a CC, use LoS/Force Speed/just stand there and get off a big heal. I'm not saying take all that away but something has to be tweaked in the total heal/utility/damage package because right now in practice it's either too easy to be good with it or it's just too strong. Like I say, people are dropping other classes in favor of Sorc/Sage alts and at this pace in a month or two you will rarely see anything else in pvp. I already have the joy of the major pvp guilds on my server running all Sage premades sometimes with 1 or 2 other classes, usually a tank or marauder. It's about an unfun pvp match as can possibly be.

 

 

Last time I checked, tracer missiles would hit me for ~3k damage @ ~556 expertise. That's a dead sorc in 5-6 hits, unless he LOSes or it happens that the target is already on low health. With shield he can probably take 1-2 more hits. If he tries to heal it, he still dies since Deliverance will be interrupted and the hot plus trance/innervate cannot be spammed due to a cooldown. At the end of the day, it can go either way, depending on the situation, gear and skill on both individuals. I still don't see a problem, other than the fact that hybrid specs have advantages and those advantages are easily fixable, if Bioware deems them OP.

 

Tracer missiles might crit for 3k, but I seriously doubt TM is doing regular damage 3k hits. With the pve set bonus and stacking crit to softcap and putting talents into maxing crits an arsenal merc can hit ~45% crit. Which is very good no doubt, but that doesn't allow surge stacking and severely cuts down the amount of techpower they can stack. From what I've seen of Sorcs they stack far less crit and more surge, then use the autocrits with a very high surge rating and do a ton of damage.

 

Speaking of hybrid specs... Arsenal mercs can't hybrid easily since that HS missile at the top of the tree is one of the only things they can do at range while forced to move, even if it's on a 15 second cooldown having a ranged ability that isn't a windup or channel is very nice. Assassins had their hybrid specs completely removed in the latest patch. Powertechs are mostly a hybrid between Pyro and tanking somehow. Sorcs are usually hybrids. I'm not sure about Juggers or Marauders, I think they Marauders are usually straight specced though. Maybe they plan on removing the rest of the hybrids in a coming patch, but I'm not sure how easy it would be to do. It might require moving some talents up the tree and others down to do and that would be a little more tricky than just forbidding you to get any advantage from talents more than 10 deep in a tree while not in the stance associated with that tree.

[mondose]

Since full TK is such a potent PvP specc.

 

 

 

And if it were for scrubs like you the game would have been ruined before beta.

 

yuh i dont design games but i could balance it better then you obviously x.x

 

i guess if i ruin the game in the beta you would probably ruin it before alpha

 

ahh i cant repell stupidity of this magnitude x.x

[sithgrizley]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA DUDE thats the best pvp swtor vid EVER.

 

Also..anyone that says Sentinals are UP are trolling .

 

They're not trolling, it's just that Sentinals have a much higher skillcap than a lot of classes so they are stuck trying to make it balanced for average skill which makes the really good ones monsters.

 

Also, a lot of those fights were here is me in a 2v1 fight and blowing some cooldowns to win. Cut to next fight. Marauder/Sentinal have very good cooldowns no doubt, but that's really what they're counting on to survive in melee with medium armor.

 

Most of the time any melee gets absolutely blown up as soon as they get in range of anything but another melee. If only because then they're the only ones in range of everyone and get focused by the a whole bunch of people.

[sithgrizley]

25% less damage on top of heavy armor vs ~3k shield which doesnt benefit from resistance whatsoever and afterwards close to nor resistance anyway thanks to light armor.

Also on avarage 15%-20% bigger healthpool.

 

Get your facts straight.

 

Armor doesn't do nearly as much as you think it does in this game.

 

Classes that primarily rely on attacks vs armor reduce armor by a percentage and force/tech attacks ignore armor and defenses completely.

 

The only way the merc has higher hp is if he gave up damage stats to improve his health pool, which is an option available to all classes equally. Admittedly the merc may be more likely to do it since he relys on his hp more but hardly makes them stronger.

 

Shield is a far far stronger defensive cooldown than mercs get, end of story.

[Slashtwo]

Armor doesn't do nearly as much as you think it does in this game.

 

Classes that primarily rely on attacks vs armor reduce armor by a percentage and force/tech attacks ignore armor and defenses completely.

 

The only way the merc has higher hp is if he gave up damage stats to improve his health pool, which is an option available to all classes equally. Admittedly the merc may be more likely to do it since he relys on his hp more but hardly makes them stronger.

 

Shield is a far far stronger defensive cooldown than mercs get, end of story.

 

I would gladly trade energy shield, armor, and 1.5k health for static barrier on a 17s cooldown, that I can precast.

[Trigr_Fingr]

So much fail in this thread, starting with the original post.

 

You think Sage/Sorc is OP cause it can do damage and heals? Are you so noob you haven't seen a hybrid Merc/Commando? Nothing like tracer missile spam while still doing heals equal to two or three damage dealers while in heavy armor. ROFL. Never mind full speced Merc/Commando healers.

 

The bubble from the Sage/Sorc? Its 3.5K HP in high end gear. A good crit is all it protects. Whats under it? Light armor. Get slapped by a well fit Sniper/Merc/Op/Assassin and you're basically spending 100% of your time fighting for your life. Heck, even hybrid tanks can lay a massive beating on you. God forbid you get 2 of these high DPS classes on you and you're done - unless you are facing baddies.

 

So called overpowered utility? Have you ever seen a Jugg jump to friendly, push a enemy from the third level to the line and then jump to them in Huttball? How about the retarded crowd control of the PowerTech.

 

Please. Play the class before you whine about stuff you don't understand or can't/won't learn.

 

This man speaks the truth. Most people need to see all the classes in comparison before they jump on the first thing that "they" see as op. Not to mention 99% of them has no proof to back up their claims.

[Tristanian]

If a class has a victory condition of "start at range" and all fights start at range don't you think that's a balance issue? Especially combined with a melee avoidance toolkit on the magnitude that Sorcs have?

 

Not all fights start at range, the initial opening of a warzone yes, I'd agree, beyond that, anyone can jump on a ranged class and most fights are rarely 1vs1. The melee avoidance "toolkit" of a sorc comes down to : a Tier 4 Lightning talent, a Tier 3 Lightning talent, a Tier 4 Madness talent. Plus the stun and the snare that other classes can mirror to various degrees. There is only one spec or spec type that can have all of those talents. If you argue that this specific spec is powerfull and needs to be adjusted, we are in agreement.

 

But in practice offspec healing is "good enough" in more situations than not. Possibly solutions to that would nerfing baseline healing while improving the healing related talents to compensate.

 

No it isn't. If non healing speced sorc is using Dark Heal, it means he is using it 95% of the time on himself and he won't be getting more than 1.5k, maybe 2k at best out of it, while depleting force rapidly. It often means he is about to die, static barrier cannot be cast due to debuff and he is trying to hide, at which point he contributes nothing to his team and if discovered he is dead. The large heal won't be talented, so it stays at 3.0 seconds. Again I repeat, that if people are so stupid as to leave a person cast a 3 second heal on himself, they do not deserve to complain.

 

And yes a Sorc can always pop a CC, use LoS/Force Speed/just stand there and get off a big heal. I'm not saying take all that away but something has to be tweaked in the total heal/utility/damage package because right now in practice it's either too easy to be good with it or it's just too strong. Like I say, people are dropping other classes in favor of Sorc/Sage alts and at this pace in a month or two you will rarely see anything else in pvp. I already have the joy of the major pvp guilds on my server running all Sage premades sometimes with 1 or 2 other classes, usually a tank or marauder. It's about an unfun pvp match as can possibly be.

 

Not sure about your server, on mine the total number of sorcs/sages that PvP on a consistent basis is more or less the same. The only tweaks that are needed is a small reshuffling of 2 maybe 3 talents.

 

 

Tracer missiles might crit for 3k, but I seriously doubt TM is doing regular damage 3k hits. With the pve set bonus and stacking crit to softcap and putting talents into maxing crits an arsenal merc can hit ~45% crit. Which is very good no doubt, but that doesn't allow surge stacking and severely cuts down the amount of techpower they can stack. From what I've seen of Sorcs they stack far less crit and more surge, then use the autocrits with a very high surge rating and do a ton of damage.

 

Speaking of hybrid specs... Arsenal mercs can't hybrid easily since that HS missile at the top of the tree is one of the only things they can do at range while forced to move, even if it's on a 15 second cooldown having a ranged ability that isn't a windup or channel is very nice. Assassins had their hybrid specs completely removed in the latest patch. Powertechs are mostly a hybrid between Pyro and tanking somehow. Sorcs are usually hybrids. I'm not sure about Juggers or Marauders, I think they Marauders are usually straight specced though. Maybe they plan on removing the rest of the hybrids in a coming patch, but I'm not sure how easy it would be to do. It might require moving some talents up the tree and others down to do and that would be a little more tricky than just forbidding you to get any advantage from talents more than 10 deep in a tree while not in the stance associated with that tree.

 

Depends on the TM. About an hour ago, I had one on me that would consistently crit for 3k and guess what ? I was his most important target. He killed me a couple of times, I killed him a couple of times. Problem ? Not really. Last but not least, I would like to see the gear that offer a very high surge rating on sorcs, while at the same time keeping a reasonable level of expertise (if we are talking about mixing PvE pieces in). The real problem with lighting/TK throw is that energy/kinetic damage is mitigated by armor. Other than the wrath proc, people would mostly use it because of the snare, rather than the damage. This is only annoying for Madness and/or Madness/Lightning hybrids and no contrary to popular belief not all sorcs are hybrids and to be perfectly honest, most that are, have no idea how to play properly (you'd be surprised really).

Edited February 7, 2012 by Tristanian

[Senefera]

Gngh.

This discussion again.

 

PvP right now seem to be filled with people who are just lolling about randomly smacking this and that, hammer a few random keys and then go cry on forums when it doesn't work out.

 

I can tell the difference between a good player and a bad within seconds. First clue is interrupts. It is sad how many times I am left uninterrupted by the 4 melees trying to beat me down while I heal myself and my tank slowly and steadily peel them one by one. All it takes is ONE person who got a clue how to interrupt and when to stun in a situation like that and I'm dead. But I guess tunnelvision RAGE SMACK DAT DPS KEY!!!!111 is how most people roll these days?

 

Second clue is how they deal with force speed. If I sprint away and immediately are slammed with a slow/charge/stun instead of an opponent going "whu? wha happened?? where sage go??" I know I am in for an interesting fight, which will more often that not end up with me dead. Good players are expecting the sprint, and have a counter ready for it.

 

I am specced for healing, so this is from a healing perspective. In a PuG I agree that hybrid spec is very powerful against melee because of the utility and kiting abilities 1v1. But despite what most of you seem to think and want balance around, PvP is not about 1v1 duels. I am sure you got a ranged class lolling about somewhere, pew pewing at that tank. Tell them to switch target and focus mr Spamlightning instead.

 

When the fight is under control and I do damage I will always go for sorcs first. Why? Because they're incredibly squishy for a ranged class. All you need to do is have a clue about how they work as well as expect and counter their tricks. Bubble waste 1, maybe up to 3 of your GCDs if your dps is bad. I know mine is.

Save slow/charge for sprint, interrupt first heal unless it is a healer and you want to force starve, then you wait for channeled heal and interrupt those. Wait with stun until he's at low health, stun, trinket, NUKE, slow sprint, interrupt heal and you got dead sorc.

 

I do this as a healer. You'd think a dps would be able to kill something a healer can.. I mean.. have you seen my dps? I'm happy when I crit for 1500.

Edited February 7, 2012 by Senefera
Failed a few words here and there. Obviously need more coffee. Or maybe sleep? Nah.. can sleep when I'm dead ;)

[Buzzerd]

yeah not sure what moron thought there should be a class that can damage in a wz for 350k+ and heal for 150k+ is freaking amazing.

[DamsonRhee]

If you have trouble killing a sage in 1v1 you really arent that good. (same gear) You really arent good enough.

 

AoE damage to multiple targets isnt the same as when a heavy dps is doing similar numbers but its more concentrated on single targets at a time.

 

Think about if we had live read on damage output.

Oh noes his meter shot up 5k in one blast OP OP

but he was lucky to hit 5 people trying to zerg someone and it did 1k damage to them all.

 

Bubble counts as heal points to bolster heal numbers but yes we are very good healers its to counter the squishy light armor we wear.

 

Stop looking at the End numbers at the scoreboard to accuse someone of being OP

thats the same type of people that think oh they are number one on the scoreboard therefore they really are the MVP of the match (instead the mvp is somewhere down the lower half)

 

If you see a sage/sorc and they are healing or doing damage. Try looking for them they are usually hiding by some kind of wall or column because they know if they get spotted they're dps and even heals will drop considerable because they are trying to survive.

 

The difference why Sage/sorc are better in raw numbers is because quite frankly they are smarter by necessity. we think of angles of where we will heal or do our aoe and dots from . We dont just jump in there and try to kill kill kill. Because if we come out of hiding we get noticed and we get pummeled. Problem is that the generic DPSer is too lazy to work and chase down a person LoS them. Countless times ive seen a dpser especially melee continually attacking a target that im healing with my hybrid heals. and they get close but takes them twice or three times as long .. not once do they think let me get that healer. Some times they even die without killing anyone and yet same WZ rinses and repeat.

Ranged people make errors when they change targets to us. what they should be doing is running up to us and then combo us. one cc we are dead some times. if we speed away well its a good thing you were close so now youre still in range for most of that speed burst. Its when you sit on your lazy *** and just pew pew just because you can reach me from there doesnt mean you will reach me when i zoom away in a few secs

(Get up close! what are you afraid of ? our mad lightsaber damage? we prefer you as far away as possible)

 

any healer worth anything or dpser for that matter will put good numbers out if you leave them in their sniper spots. do some work and find them and kill them and youll see numbers drop drastically

 

there is a couple of things that could be addressed which im unsure how it will through balance they could but the CD on bubble after the effect is gone and not at the start or up the CD time my vote would be have like a 27 sec timer on cast or something like that

and second is that commandos HoT channel Draws a lot of attention but the sorc/sages has a hazy line and sages i think is slightly harder to notice.

 

get some real evidence

try fighting in Open world in reasonable small groups where there is no where to hide and maneuver and see how well that OP Sage/sorc can last compared to other healers or even other players

[StankFace]

Srsly, quit ************ about sorcs.

 

Only nerf they may need is something that nerfs their imba hybrid spec...

 

and/or - make their pushback+root fill resolve bar.

[MaxJenike]

They need to be nerfed now!!! This isn't even funny... Maybe thats why all your servers are empty bioware............. Gotta be freaking kidding me. Or should everyone play sorcs and sages?

[Senefera]

Srsly, quit ************ about sorcs.

 

Only nerf they may need is something that nerfs their imba hybrid spec...

 

Word. Switching a few abilities around is all it takes.

Also, a 30% slow on a main damage ability is a bit over the top, I wouldn't mind it getting changed to 10% and 30% if you spec into it. Right now it is a bit retarded.

 

This coming from a Sage.

[Drunkasaurus]

I love that sorcs are saying "but we die to tracer missile spam, or juggs have much more utility in huttball" to justify their incredible utility.

 

1) Tracer missile is also overpowered. It needs to get nerfed because it's 1 dimensional play.

2) AFAIK, Juggernauts give up a lot of damage for their utility. They don't have the all around utility that Sorcs/Sages do.

[ColeWorld]

Get to 50 and get full gear.

 

 

If you complain after than then you may validly have something on your hands but I havn't seen it.

[Greyfeld]

So much fail in this thread, starting with the original post.

 

You think Sage/Sorc is OP cause it can do damage and heals? Are you so noob you haven't seen a hybrid Merc/Commando?

 

And that's where I stopped reading.

 

See, I left this thread to fester after the first 3 pages, while I logged into the game and actually played (even spent a couple hours with my own healing-specced Sage doing warzones). Now that I've come back, it's amusing to see people harp on about how much damage a Sage/Sorc can or cannot do (DPS, burst, or otherwise), when that wasn't even the original point of the thread.

[PloGreen]

Whirlwind alone is enough to fill the resolve bar to almost 90%.

 

Actually it fills it.

[Greyfeld]

1) Tracer missile is also overpowered. It needs to get nerfed because it's 1 dimensional play.

 

Not, really. I have a feeling you haven't actually played a Merc before. Tracer Missile is necessary as an Assault-spec merc, because it's part of their core burst rotation. Not only that, but it's easy as hell to interrupt.

 

Since Mercs require cast times and channeling for the majority of their rotation, using LoS is also the perfect tactic to avoid getting blown up.

[ninjashadowdark]

This iswhy i cant wait for guildwars 2 and diablo 3 thos are 2 games i will play over and over this game is going to the unsup section theres to much caster love on this game

 

seen guild wars 2 ant what i expect to be not my flavor of game ..... not fan boy just saying got sick of the fantasy dragons stuff >.>

[PloGreen]

Gngh.

This discussion again.

 

PvP right now seem to be filled with people who are just lolling about randomly smacking this and that, hammer a few random keys and then go cry on forums when it doesn't work out.

 

I can tell the difference between a good player and a bad within seconds. First clue is interrupts. It is sad how many times I am left uninterrupted by the 4 melees trying to beat me down while I heal myself and my tank slowly and steadily peel them one by one. All it takes is ONE person who got a clue how to interrupt and when to stun in a situation like that and I'm dead. But I guess tunnelvision RAGE SMACK DAT DPS KEY!!!!111 is how most people roll these days?

 

Second clue is how they deal with force speed. If I sprint away and immediately are slammed with a slow/charge/stun instead of an opponent going "whu? wha happened?? where sage go??" I know I am in for an interesting fight, which will more often that not end up with me dead. Good players are expecting the sprint, and have a counter ready for it.

 

I am specced for healing, so this is from a healing perspective. In a PuG I agree that hybrid spec is very powerful against melee because of the utility and kiting abilities 1v1. But despite what most of you seem to think and want balance around, PvP is not about 1v1 duels. I am sure you got a ranged class lolling about somewhere, pew pewing at that tank. Tell them to switch target and focus mr Spamlightning instead.

 

When the fight is under control and I do damage I will always go for sorcs first. Why? Because they're incredibly squishy for a ranged class. All you need to do is have a clue about how they work as well as expect and counter their tricks. Bubble waste 1, maybe up to 3 of your GCDs if your dps is bad. I know mine is.

Save slow/charge for sprint, interrupt first heal unless it is a healer and you want to force starve, then you wait for channeled heal and interrupt those. Wait with stun until he's at low health, stun, trinket, NUKE, slow sprint, interrupt heal and you got dead sorc.

 

I do this as a healer. You'd think a dps would be able to kill something a healer can.. I mean.. have you seen my dps? I'm happy when I crit for 1500.

Qft.

 

Spot on.

[Grubfist]

And this doesn't take into account that all of their damage bypasses almost all types of armor and defenses.

 

That's actually not true at all. A majority of their damage is kinetic/energy, which is mitigated by armor like any other physical attacks/blaster fire.