ANALYSIS: Scoundrel is the Worst Class in the Game at Everything

[Bodhidharma]

I am soloing all the heroic the 2 and both 4s on Belsalvis. No other class can do that. So I dont see why you think other classes are better. Just wish everyone would stop complaining and looking for a bone on their favorite class. In the end it just causes all classes to be nerfed pve.

 

So ya if you wan to solo a champion and still be dps well that just won't happen. I think sawbones rocks and would not change the class one bit.

[megamacka]

About the pvp healing part. It's pretty damn easy to kill a souncdrel or operative healer. I barely notice that they are healing at all :-P They just..... die....

Whilst the trooper/bh and sorc/sage are SO ANNOYING and can be almost impossible to kill

[Bodhidharma]

Geeze lol the more i read from people complaining the more I realize they really don't understand how to play this class at all. Ya sure devs give me a boost I will be able to solo Operations soon.

 

You have stealth and heals. Those two combined gives this class a huge advantage pve.

 

As for PVP complaints suck it up or roll up another toon for pvp geeze.

 

Not all classes should be equal, once that happens this game will die. I have seen it on EQ2. The game was perfect each class had a role. Then they added pvp the whole game slid after that making adjustments and trying to balance every class against the other classes.

 

I really hope they don't change much for the classes they all have their purpose. It just takes someone with some time and experience playing the class to understand what to choose on the skill tree and how to maximize its effectiveness.

 

Being able to solo heroic 50 that are for groups of 4 players is clearly not a gimp class. It is epic in pve just learn to play it correctly and roll up something else if you are a pvp fanatic.

Edited February 7, 2012 by Bodhidharma

[Rhego]

Geeze lol the more i read from people complaining the more I realize they really don't understand how to play this class at all. Ya sure devs give me a boost I will be able to solo Operations soon.

 

You have stealth and heals. Those two combined gives this class a huge advantage pve.

 

As for PVP complaints suck it up or roll up another toon for pvp geeze.

 

Not all classes should be equal, once that happens this game will die. I have seen it on EQ2. The game was perfect each class had a role. Then they added pvp the whole game slid after that making adjustments and trying to balance every class against the other classes.

 

I really hope they don't change much for the classes they all have their purpose. It just takes someone with some time and experience playing the class to understand what to choose on the skill tree and how to maximize its effectiveness.

 

Being able to solo heroic 50 that are for groups of 4 players is clearly not a gimp class. It is epic in pve just learn to play it correctly and roll up something else if you are a pvp fanatic.

 

I second this!

 

I would also like to add that even in PvP the healing has a big advantage as Scrapper wether people agree with me or not. The problem I have found in PvP and PvE for that matter is that people either Barely or NEVER use their Interrupts and then go to these topics and cry like 10 year olds.

 

I die 3 or 4 times in a losing or winning match and am able to Solo many of the Imps classes, I know the weaknesses and strengths of these classes and perhaps knoweledge is my advantage but I do not believe that the lack of a knockback or gap closer is the definition of a fight, we have utilitys to end the fight in our favor (Or at least I have the utility to end the fight in my favor). I do not disagree with any of you about the nerf but it is not in any way the reason you people can or cant be up to par with other classes in Healing or DMG. I am having none of those issues as a Scrapper and Sawbones I know dont seem to have them as a Healer.

Edited February 7, 2012 by Rhego

[utuwer]

I only die 2-3 times regardless win or lose. How? Stay in stealth, jump on half hp targets, avoid anything with bubbles+sabers. I found out killing an healing smug/IA 10 times easier than a sorc/sage. Reason? I can interupt all smug/IA's healing casting skills while its pretty useless to interupt sorc/sage. They just bubble up, wait for 4 sec and "sorry, bud. Get lost please."

[LordBanjax]

Things seem unbalanced at first glance....

 

Last night my buddy let me play his lvl 28 Sage, which wasn't even heal spec. About half way through the warzone I was just fumbling with his dmg abilities so decided to just heal....I did two warzones and got top heals in both and wasn't even trying.... on my 41 sawbones, I always feel like i'm struggling to make top heals...

 

I'll get a better sample pool later tonight as I realize 2 warzones isn't really enough to form a firm judgement but at first glance....hrmmm

[DunsparrowSolo]

Numbers mean everything in a game THAT IS BASED ON NUMBERS.

 

Also, WZs does not count overhealing, so his numbers do matter.

 

Also, why'd you leave out the commando in you options comparison list seeing as the title of this thread is about scoundrels being worst at everything, and not scoundrels aren't as good as sages.

 

Total healing numbers have nothing to do with effectiveness in Warzones. The winner of a warzone is not the team with the most damage or most healing. If I deal 300k damage with DoTs, its entirely possible I didn't kill anyone. If I heal 300k damage with HoTs, its entirely possible I didn't save anyone. Kills matter. Deaths matter. Total healing/damage does not matter.

 

I used the Sage as an example. I could have done the same with Commando. Are you conceding that Sage is better than Scoundrel, or are you just nitpicking like a sniveling failure?

[DunsparrowSolo]

Things seem unbalanced at first glance....

 

Last night my buddy let me play his lvl 28 Sage, which wasn't even heal spec. About half way through the warzone I was just fumbling with his dmg abilities so decided to just heal....I did two warzones and got top heals in both and wasn't even trying.... on my 41 sawbones, I always feel like i'm struggling to make top heals...

 

I'll get a better sample pool later tonight as I realize 2 warzones isn't really enough to form a firm judgement but at first glance....hrmmm

 

Pre-50 gives you absolutely no idea what real warzones are like. As you demonstrate, most of the players are still learning their class and have no idea what they are doing. At 50, you will face groups and teams that work together and know exactly what they are doing. Its a completely different and far more competitive game.

[Azzkickrr]

I agree with OP, bump

[Jahor]

I am soloing all the heroic the 2 and both 4s on Belsalvis. No other class can do that.

 

Wrong.

The daily H2 from Ilum and Belsavis are easy soloble by Guardians and Commandos. The right H4 which isn't an instance can be soloed too by both. And it's hard to belive, that you can solo the left where you enter the instance.

Some spawns there are 2 Sith Addept + 1 Sith Sage which are deadly as hell with their casts. If you can't CC and interupt them you'll die horible.

[Jahor]

Pre-50 gives you absolutely no idea what real warzones are like. As you demonstrate, most of the players are still learning their class and have no idea what they are doing. At 50, you will face groups and teams that work together and know exactly what they are doing. Its a completely different and far more competitive game.

 

Does it matter if it is much harder with Scoundrels pre 50 or with 50?

Scoundrel 20 v other healer 20 => Scoundrel has the much harder time.

Scoundrel 50 v other healer 50 => Scoundrel still has the much harder time.

 

And I can imagin Scoundrel 50 in premade against other premades will be kicked damn fast to replace him with other healer (mostly Sage).

 

Sorry but it feels like they created the Sage first, put all the realy cool stuff on him and then saw "ok, we have one healing class but we should have more". After the commando was finished they started with the Scoundrel and as the other two allready got all the nice tools and Scoundrels shouldn't be to similar ... they trashed the desigen

 

But hey, it does NOT matter if classes are similar in some points. And constant HPS + group/singel heal + protect abilitys are far to important for healing classes to not be similar!

And for some stuff you need no HPS-proll meter like "AoE heal 4 targets only", LOL-Oh-What channel heal numbers and broken upper hand mechanic, no bubble.

 

Players today are a harsh folk. If one class isn't as good as others while doing their job ... they will get no place in groups. Equal if PvP or PvE.

If one class has problems to reach the same healing/protecting level as other classes ... this class has no place in raids!

 

And yes, there will allways be this 1 or 2 anti-excamples, where a great Scoundril managed to have a fixed groupe.

Edited February 7, 2012 by Jahor

[Covalent]

People keep saying that class A has low sustained dps or that class B has probably the best sustained dps... etc. etc. But where are your numbers to back up any of those claims? Anything, please just anything solid that is a little more than a subjective "feeling" of what the dps might be. I know there are no dps meters but you need to test this stuff out in some other way or do the math using proven formulas. Without any of that everything you say about dps is meaningless.

[DunsparrowSolo]

People keep saying that class A has low sustained dps or that class B has probably the best sustained dps... etc. etc. But where are your numbers to back up any of those claims? Anything, please just anything solid that is a little more than a subjective "feeling" of what the dps might be. I know there are no dps meters but you need to test this stuff out in some other way or do the math using proven formulas. Without any of that everything you say about dps is meaningless.

 

Good players have a feel for these things, but we can also tell when we run heroics with different classes and time the boss kills, which we do. Its certainly not an exact science but it gives a ballpark.

[Malambus]

Good players have a feel for these things, but we can also tell when we run heroics with different classes and time the boss kills, which we do. Its certainly not an exact science but it gives a ballpark.

 

Subjective anecdotal "evidence" and your "feel for these things" are by definition completely unreliable.

[pinkink]

Seer Sage is so boring to play, it was fun at the early lvls, but hit 50 its so dull,

Scoundrel is much more fun. Overole Healing that i do in WZ with both classes is the same.

 

Role both see the diffrence for youself. If u cant do same overole healing with Scoundrel the reason is pretty simple. You just cant understand the role of Scoundrel Healer.

[Larce_Apollo]

Now I am not going to go into technical debates, or even read through most of this thread, but I did read the first bits and although I agree we don't do anything as well as another class if you look at ONE specific function, we do really well when you use everything we have, that others don't get.

 

Yeah we can't heal or DPS better or on equal grounds of other classes, but we can do both well, especially since we have stealth, CCs, nades, and even cover at our disposal. A lot of this is situational and you have to keep track of the people around you, enemy and ally.

 

I'm gonna throw up a screenshot of a game that happened 2 nights ago.

 

Stats compared to other classes are not the greatest by themselves, together though they aren't bad, and I wasn't even trying (Imp team REALLY sucked):

 

http://i402.photobucket.com/albums/pp110/Mst3krocks/SWTOR/Screenshot_2012-02-05_19_09_25_885478.jpg

 

24 kills, 0 deaths, 159k healing, 89k damage, 7800 objectives, and 8 medals. I also got voted MVP by 3 people, none were clan mates either, I was running alone with a PuG.

 

Why did I get voted MVP you wonder? I kept them away from 2 turrets alone at one point 3 v 1 (Just heal tanked), kept team mates up when they were being fired on, a shadow in our group got saved 3 times by my heals (He had no gear), I popped the stealthers, and watched our turrets patrolling in stealth to make sure no one ninja'd them. We facerolled them so bad you can see in the end we had all 3.

 

I'm not trying to brag or beat my chest here, this is common day stuff for me now and I enjoy the class and the ability we have to change things up on the fly. I'm also trying to point out that although we don't shine in one subject, we shine when you use everything together properly.

 

I'm a heal scoundrel if anyone is wondering, a 33/8/0 build, so not the heaviest of damage dealers, but I can drop heals like crazy. With almost a full cent suit as well I've started to really shine in my playstyle a lot more.

 

I proc'd 14 times in a row 2 nights ago in a civil war map with a maurader beating on me, that was 14 insta-cast heals in a row. He gave up and walked away... lulz. Seeing stuff like that happen puts a smile on my face.

 

I do agree that shoot first needed a change/nerf, but what I don't agree with the changes to the DPS lines was not adding in more long term survival options when out of stealth OR at least some other group role option. I have a few options with what I can provide to a group, not the same for the other 2 lines if you spec heavy in them.

 

If anyone has noticed, but the WZs have turned into a heal war with sages and sorcs now as well. I've been in WZs where is was 4-5 of each on each team..... no DPS, and no way to knock a healer out flat in a few seconds anymore, they took that job away and only 1-2 people on my server at least can still pull it off. It takes EVERYTHING to do it now though and I still see them fail at it sometimes.

[Raice]

Oh but it is easy to compare. Count the force armor as healing done, which it is directly equivalent to. The next steps are simple:

 

1) Run your healing rotation with a 50 sage for 10 minutes (including force armor) and record it with fraps.

2) Run your healing rotation with a 50 scoundrel who has the same stats as the sage for 10 minutes. Record that with fraps as well.

3) watch the recorded movies and note down exactly how much is healed (raw healing + absorbed through force armor) and compare them.

 

That's the way we do in the scientific world and it has worked out just fine for the last couple of thousand years - why should it all of a sudden not be a valid approach?

 

Btw, I'm not trying to undermine your work, I only would like some numbers on it, because I am very interested in knowing the exact strengths and weaknesses of my class!

 

Dude - get off this BS. Everyone knows the Sage is a better healer. We don't need metrics and video proof of evidence.

 

You don't hear people asking for Sawbones in the Ops and Flashpoints. You don't see Sawbones NOT dying in PvP.

[ajaaxx]

/signed

 

I agree.

 

Very disapointed. Looking for another class to roll, possibly will just unsub. I played swg off and on for years, i am not going through this all over again with the constant nerf and major changes.

 

Bioware, stand behind the game you spent 200 million on. Stay away from major nerfs.

 

Fix the issues with game mechanics first (example was the stackable buffs in WZ), and buff lackluster classes.

 

Then incremental nerfs would be ok, but not before then.

 

However, I feel like we are just talking to a wall. The amount of disdain Bioware has shown for the community is shocking.

 

For example, no word on the very much needed complete crafting overhaul of crafting. Also the unwillingness to admit they ruined the loot/gearing system in this game with too many commendations and trash gear (ex. shield absorption and aim on shotguns!?!? or the fact that we get imperial memorabilia for companion gifts on republic side)

 

Just sad, I really have been looking forward to this as my new game for a few years. I am getting older and have a job and family so I can really only devote my attention to one game.

 

This may not be the game afterall.

 

***

 

Prediction: If Bioware doesnt change their tune, stop listening to cries for nerfs, and start fixing the broken parts of the game, then begining of the end will start with games like GW 2 and within 2 years they will shut the game down completely. So much for still playing this game a decade from now as EA/Bioware have stated in the media, at this point that is totally laughable.

 

And no lots of these issues arent because its a new game. Bioware has made foolish choices in game design and responses to whiners in the community.

[DunsparrowSolo]

Subjective anecdotal "evidence" and your "feel for these things" are by definition completely unreliable.

 

I'm sorry that you're bad, but I am rock-solid reliable.

[Jahor]

Another thing I just noticed.

 

"Wounding Shot"

Range 10m

requiers Upper Hand

 

When I spec deap into this tree I can get Upper Hand just from Shoot First or Blaster Whipe which are both 4m range skills. And if I'm at 4m ... I'm very likely Scrapper and not Dirty Fighting speced. As Scrapper 1) I will not have Wounding Shots 2) I have better skills to use Upper Hand.

 

There is absolut NO synergy with the rest of the tree .

 

Either remove the need of Upper Hand or give this tree a posibilty to gain upper hand by DoTs.

 

Maybe change "Black Market Equipment"?

Increase the critical changs of all DoTs by 4%/level and you get a 33,34%/level changs to gain Upper Hand from critical DoTs.

 

I mean hey, this hole tree is focused on DoT-Damage. NOT close combat!

 

And why 10m at all? Both skills (Wounding Shots AND Hemorrhaging Blast) should be 30m to have a synergy with Vital Shot and Shrap Bomb.

Edited February 7, 2012 by Jahor

[offbeatpaladin]

Another thing I just noticed.

 

"Wounding Shot"

Range 10m

requiers Upper Hand

 

When I spec deap into this tree I can get Upper Hand just from Shoot First or Blaster Whipe which are both 4m range skills. And if I'm at 4m ... I'm very likely Scrapper and not Dirty Fighting speced. As Scrapper 1) I will not have Wounding Shots 2) I have better skills to use Upper Hand.

 

There is absolut NO synergy with the rest of the tree .

 

Either remove the need of Upper Hand or give this tree a posibilty to gain upper hand by DoTs.

 

Maybe change "Black Market Equipment"?

Increase the critical changs of all DoTs by 4%/level and you get a 33,34%/level changs to gain Upper Hand from critical DoTs.

 

I mean hey, this hole tree is focused on DoT-Damage. NOT close combat!

 

And why 10m at all? Both skills (Wounding Shots AND Hemorrhaging Blast) should be 30m to have a synergy with Vital Shot and Shrap Bomb.

 

It's focused on DoT damage close combat. Like it or not, you have rolled a melee class.

[Falcon_Smide]

I think we are number one in suggestive cut-scene and smart-*** comments.

 

This is all I have to add, aside from I completely agree with the OP and am likely going to roll an Inquisitor on another server.

 

I will un-shelve the toon if they can provide a decent fix to something about this class.

 

[DarKenigma]

I love the scoundrel class and realize that utility = mediocrity, that said. I still find myself disappointed when playing other classes and realizing how much easier it is.

[Jahor]

It's focused on DoT damage close combat. Like it or not, you have rolled a melee class.

 

I have no problem with 10m only. But this hole talent is borked.

 

IF you start with close combat to get your upper hand ... you will for sure NOT have any DoT running as you use your high damage burst attack before you use any DoT.

 

IF you have DoTs running allready it is very unlikely, that you go into meele ... as you know ... you use the DoTs when you aren't close enough for your high damage bursts. And so if your DoTs run .. you have no posibility to gain upper hand.

 

See the problem?

Either upper hand or DoTs but nearly never both at the same time.

 

Without DoTs this talent does less damage then other, basic attacks. So without DoTs there is no reason to use it at all.

 

Not even counting the fact, that it has compareble high energy cost where you need to spend another 2 points to bring them in line with your other high damage abilitys.

 

It's just broken/borked/bad designer or what ever you like to name it.

 

PS: after some moments I just come to the conclusion, that upper hand is just crap.

- some skills can be used out of cover only

- some skills can be used from behind only

- some skills can be used when stelthed

- some skills can be used only with upper hand

 

Sorry ... this is just TO MUCH of a mix.

Edited February 8, 2012 by Jahor

[Aetou]

Shrap Bomb then Vital Shot while approaching the target (assuming an objective with a fight around it rather than the complete freedom for them to kite away.) Add in a Thermal Grenade too often if there are at least a couple of guys there and I'm not already close enough to swap to Blaster Whip, Wounding Shot, <Defensive Move x2>, Blaster Whip, Wounding Shot...

 

I've also started to get into the habit of dropping into cover to quickly through a sabotage charge as it does very healthy damage.

 

Still, I'm not going to argue that if I didn't have SRMP to use while closing the gap there would be even bigger issues than I currently experience. I'd like Sabotage Charge for Dirty Fighters not to require cover (gives us another ability to use while closing the distance, on a long CD so not too dangerous.) I'd also like them to make it so that Wounding Shot (and also Kolto Pack, for Sawbones) doesn't consume Upper Hand (ideally don't require it either.) We have harsh enough energy management issues without needing a clunky secondary resource that is quite a pain to generate in PVP. The need to keep 2 bleeds on a target and still pay 19 energy a shot for it to be nasty means that Wounding Shot wouldn't be broken by losing the restriction. It does mean that Scoundrels would be a lot less frustrating to play... no more 'Effect Condition Failed!'