Variation of PVP 31/0/10 when 1.1.2 hits

[Leverage]

So I have switched from 23/0/18 early to get used to 31/0/10 for the upcoming patch. Overall, I have found the additional "gain" to survivability negligible with a loss to DPS (I know the patch changes a lot of this but I digress).

 

My thought was that Shield Generators in PVP are so underwhelming, why not try a 31/0/10 build with a focus in Combat Stance.

 

Don't take any of the skills that enhance shield but instead trade off for more DPS and Endurance.

 

Something like this:

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#601rIMkzbskrsZZf0cM.1

 

You still get a lot of the "defensive" talents, just not ones that enhance your shield which is meh anyway. I would still get Impact Control just for the 10% health pop.

 

The 1 point in Expertise is just filler and could easily be put into Shadowsight.

[AstralFire]

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#601rcrozrskrsZZf0cM.1

 

If you're having issues with your burst, let me emphasize that Particle Acceleration is not a must have. You should be casting Project every chance you get. PA buff being active is a bonus, not a necessity; the necessity is the huge amount of damage and healing from your TK throw.

Edited February 6, 2012 by AstralFire

[Leverage]

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#601rcrozrskrsZZf0cM.1

 

If you're having issues with your burst, let me emphasize that Particle Acceleration is not a must have. You should be casting Project every chance you get. PA buff being active is a bonus, not a necessity; the necessity is the huge amount of damage and healing from your TK throw.

 

Thanks. Curious why you like 2% Defense over 2% Endurance? Isn't "Defense" only against some damage where essentially Enduarance raises health for all damage?

 

Admittadly I have not run any numbers so I may be missing something big.

[AstralFire]

Well, two things:

 

- The tooltip is actually misleading and Shadowsight improves not just melee and ranged defense (what the defense score raises), but your force/tech resistance, giving you a 2% chance to resist any kind of attack.

- The higher stealth detection is huge.

[Leverage]

Well, two things:

 

- The tooltip is actually misleading and Shadowsight improves not just melee and ranged defense (what the defense score raises), but your force/tech resistance, giving you a 2% chance to resist any kind of attack.

- The higher stealth detection is huge.

 

Thanks again. I didn't realize about the resist piece of it. So you do use a shield then?

[AstralFire]

Hm? No, I skip a shield entirely for PvP. That's why I don't take K. Ward.

[Suitmonster]

Hm? No, I skip a shield entirely for PvP. That's why I don't take K. Ward.

 

Nice to see others that I respect have arrived at the same decision. It is also nice to see that I arrived there on my own without copy & paste from AstralFire like I did early-game.

[Leverage]

Hm? No, I skip a shield entirely for PvP. That's why I don't take K. Ward.

 

So is the 15% from Rapid Recovery not shield chance but the damage and heals every 4.5 seconds?

 

I think I read that wrong because I had it in my head that's what it was but looking at it now I think I was totally goofed up on that.

 

Thanks again for the feedback.

[AstralFire]

Nice to see others that I respect have arrived at the same decision. It is also nice to see that I arrived there on my own without copy & paste from AstralFire like I did early-game.

 

Hehe. It's always reassuring to know you're not some crazy half-wit, I was pretty uncertain when I decided to skip K. Ward initially.

 

 

So is the 15% from Rapid Recovery not shield chance but the damage and heals every 4.5 seconds?

 

I think I read that wrong because I had it in my head that's what it was but looking at it now I think I was totally goofed up on that.

 

Thanks again for the feedback.

 

Yeah, it's the heal and damage from C. Tech. Very nice benefit there.

[Uppercase]

Why does everybody dog on shielding in pvp? I know most "Big" attacks are force/tech but inbetween every one of those is a damage attack filler. SO yeah 1 point in a skill that gives me a 15% chance to reduce incoming damage from every sniper attack while being useless vs sorcs doesnt seem like such a bad thing.

 

Kinetic ward is off the GCD cost 10 energy and you regen like 8-12 depending on talents a second and can be cast while stealthed. Somebody can correct me if im wrong but arnt all the juggernaught/maurder skills that build up rage kinetic? Seems like in a tree where we have useless talents already with expertise and mental fortitude giving back very little returns id think kinetic ward would be worth a point. Unless im missing something and the extra force power from shield to focus offhand makes your dps go through the roof?

[AstralFire]

Why does everybody dog on shielding in pvp? I know most "Big" attacks are force/tech but inbetween every one of those is a damage attack filler. SO yeah 1 point in a skill that gives me a 15% chance to reduce incoming damage from every sniper attack while being useless vs sorcs doesnt seem like such a bad thing.

 

Kinetic ward is off the GCD cost 10 energy and you regen like 8-12 depending on talents a second and can be cast while stealthed. Somebody can correct me if im wrong but arnt all the juggernaught/maurder skills that build up rage kinetic? Seems like in a tree where we have useless talents already with expertise and mental fortitude giving back very little returns id think kinetic ward would be worth a point. Unless im missing something and the extra force power from shield to focus offhand makes your dps go through the roof?

 

Shield also doesn't work on any critical hits, for starters. So when people are running around with 33% crit, it greater reduces the chance of things that proc shield.

 

Kinetic Ward requires you to spend an extra bind, and costs more Force than it returns unless you're hit with ~20 attacks that are shield eligible in 20 seconds. (Such as, for example, an Infiltration Shadow spamming Clairvoyant Strike for 10 out of her 13 GCDs in that space of time... absolutely none of those must crit, so really you need at least two people attacking you.) Kin is certainly high Force consumption with the 30 Force Slow Time and the 39 Force Project.

 

Not to mention that you lose 200 or so Force Power while carrying a shield gen instead of a focus. That's about 50 damage on Project or Slow Time, and around 600 damage on a fully charged TK Throw. By comparison, while holding a shield generator and using Kinetic Ward, you decrease your incoming damage per second by...

 

let's say 35% shield chance to reduce 20% damage, reduce by half for non-weapon damage attacks and then reduce again by a third for crits...

 

12% chance to reduce damage by 20%. Out of 16,000 damage you take, you've negated 380 damage. A single fully charged TK Throw is dealing almost double the extra damage you managed to negate that way. And that's not adding up all the damage to Slow Time, Project, C. Tech's passive, Breach...

 

Vanguards and possibly Guardians (still learning them) run around with shields anyway because they have a significantly larger portion of their offense predicated on being hit. They are classes designed to tank that have 2 DPS trees. The Shadow is a DPS class with a tank tree. I can DPS HMs in tank stance, though I run a risk of drawing threat; Vanguards and Guardians can't claim the same.

Edited February 6, 2012 by AstralFire

[Bilirubin]

That's a lot to think about. Thanks for it!

 

ETA: Do you repec for raiding or do you not do ops?

Edited February 6, 2012 by Bilirubin

[AstralFire]

I do not do Ops but very casually. I would either farm money for respeccing if I did, or stick with the PvE spec as the PvE spec is better at PvP than the PvP spec is at PvE.

[DjArioch]

Interesting to see the math on Kinetic Ward, I knew it was pretty bad but didn't realize how bad. I was using it in pvp just for the slim mitigation that it was doing but the upkeep on it is over the top. If it would just be a toggle ability then I think it would be worth it.

 

Since no KW then no reason for the shield gen and you have already stated you aren't wearing one. Are you wearing dps or tank gear while in Combat Tech? I would assume the 4 piece tank set just for the bonus but what about the other pieces? The pieces with absorb and shield bonus would be wasted stats then but defense would still help mitigate.

[BroadStreetBully]

Shield also doesn't work on any critical hits, for starters. So when people are running around with 33% crit, it greater reduces the chance of things that proc shield.

 

Kinetic Ward requires you to spend an extra bind, and costs more Force than it returns unless you're hit with ~20 attacks that are shield eligible in 20 seconds. (Such as, for example, an Infiltration Shadow spamming Clairvoyant Strike for 10 out of her 13 GCDs in that space of time... absolutely none of those must crit, so really you need at least two people attacking you.) Kin is certainly high Force consumption with the 30 Force Slow Time and the 39 Force Project.

 

Not to mention that you lose 200 or so Force Power while carrying a shield gen instead of a focus. That's about 50 damage on Project or Slow Time, and around 600 damage on a fully charged TK Throw. By comparison, while holding a shield generator and using Kinetic Ward, you decrease your incoming damage per second by...

 

let's say 35% shield chance to reduce 20% damage, reduce by half for non-weapon damage attacks and then reduce again by a third for crits...

 

12% chance to reduce damage by 20%. Out of 16,000 damage you take, you've negated 380 damage. A single fully charged TK Throw is dealing almost double the extra damage you managed to negate that way. And that's not adding up all the damage to Slow Time, Project, C. Tech's passive, Breach...

 

Vanguards and possibly Guardians (still learning them) run around with shields anyway because they have a significantly larger portion of their offense predicated on being hit. They are classes designed to tank that have 2 DPS trees. The Shadow is a DPS class with a tank tree. I can DPS HMs in tank stance, though I run a risk of drawing threat; Vanguards and Guardians can't claim the same.

 

You may be right overall, but with 33% Critical, you still have 67% chance to shield or take a normal hit. Wouldn't it be advantageous to try to turn most of that 67% into a shielding chance? If you somehow had a shield chance over 67% without Kinetic Ward, then it would seem useless, but otherwise it still seems like a good idea.

[AstralFire]

Interesting to see the math on Kinetic Ward, I knew it was pretty bad but didn't realize how bad. I was using it in pvp just for the slim mitigation that it was doing but the upkeep on it is over the top. If it would just be a toggle ability then I think it would be worth it.

 

Since no KW then no reason for the shield gen and you have already stated you aren't wearing one. Are you wearing dps or tank gear while in Combat Tech? I would assume the 4 piece tank set just for the bonus but what about the other pieces? The pieces with absorb and shield bonus would be wasted stats then but defense would still help mitigate.

 

I use 4pSurv with crit and surge mods mostly, though I'm hitting the point at which I don't really want to actively hunt out either anymore; I have just under +30% crit damage from Surge Rating going to +50% with my adrenals, and I sit at around a 33% crit chance (40% Crit chance being my absolute limit, because any higher and I start clipping the benefit of Potency on TK Throw.)

 

It's very expensive, I've probably spent over a million credits trying out new mods and such.

 

You may be right overall, but with 33% Critical, you still have 67% chance to shield or take a normal hit. Wouldn't it be advantageous to try to turn most of that 67% into a shielding chance? If you somehow had a shield chance over 67% without Kinetic Ward, then it would seem useless, but otherwise it still seems like a good idea.

 

No, because I just showed the math on the damage output you lost relative to the survivability you gained. The only situation in which I would really say 'go for it!' is if you can guarantee that you have a pocket healer and you're always going to be a focal point of attacks in WZes. (e.g. you have the ball most of the time in Huttball, you and your healer are the only defenders at a point regularly in VS and CW, etc.).

 

As a very mobile, high damage tank with a pull, one of your critical missions is going to be castrating their support by yanking their healers away and pummeling them. It is not your only mission or you wouldn't be a tank, but it is an important one. Your defensive stats are particularly non-contributory for that purpose.

Edited February 6, 2012 by AstralFire

[grandmasterub]

Why would you take a measly 2% endurance over increased proc chance on combat tech. The heal on the effect is larger than the hp increase from 2% endurance...

 

Also defense/stealth talent is > extra danage on your controls especially with the ludacris number of sorcs in pvp.

 

As to kward. I see charges being eaten. Therfore I keep it.

[AstralFire]

There are arguments to be made for Ward and Shield Generators such that I won't think less of someone who specs and gears that way. I framed a scenario to make the comparison look extra bad, in part because I don't really want to do a mathematical look at everything. (As it was, that was extensive napkin math.) But I'm strong enough of this opinion that I won't ever recommend it without significant changes to the system as it stands.

[Enduretwentytwo]

Even though what Astralfire said is correct, losing KW for the slight gain in either Nerve Wracking or Rapid Recovery seems rather extreme, unless ALL you want to do is PVP. Without KW you can't tank, and it may be even harder to solo in general. I understand that people like to min/max and a few only PVP, but overall losing out on a large portion of the game seems like a huge loss considering you only gain a 3% DPS gain on stuns or a 7% increase on a proc.

 

Also you might consider that if you switch the 1 point in Nerve Wracking for KW, you gain not just a viable tanking build for PVE content, but a great tanking and PVP build all in one.

[AstralFire]

I wouldn't go quite that far, but I would recommend sticking with the PvE build if you want to do any PvE, at least until you've overgeared. At this point I don't intend to spend any significant amount of time doing operations. This question's come up enough recently I'll address it in the next update of the sticky.

[Varcan]

Shield also doesn't work on any critical hits, for starters.

 

You know, if they just changed this one thing then I think on a BM lvl for KC Shadows the shield would be more beneficial. This would be such a simple fix to allow shield to proc on melee and ranged critical hits...

 

I agree that shields are not worth it, as when you need the mitigation the most(critical hits), the shield fails to proc at all. Which makes absolutely no sense...

 

At least the stats are very nice for Shadows on the BM Power Generator. Get rid of accurracy for Surge, yes please!

[Kunari]

Interesting read, I've just started to level my Shadow and was planning on going with Powerr's tank setup http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=225827

 

I'm still sub-level 20 but I did pick up a Focus OH and was enjoying the increased DPS for lowbie WZs.