How to fix Tracer/Grav spam?

[Tyrpak]

If they were to change Tracer, then they would have to change the whole Arsenal spec: we are meant to use tracer as our bread and butter attack because 1)it applies buffs/debuffs 2)it makes our barrage proc 3)it vents 8 heat if you crit 4)It is the only real attack (not counting basic attack and missile blast for obvious reasons) without a cooldown. That, and Power shot, which Arsenal mercs are not really meant to use.

 

You have very clearly summed up the problem with Tracer Missile.

 

Please name me any other skill (Grav Round doesn't count), that does the same on any of the other classes.

 

You don't need to push anything else with all this built in functionality.

 

Look an agent for example: he has 1 skill (acid blade) for armor debuff, none of his other attacks get any form of armor debuff.

He has 2 skills (shiv and hidden strike) for TA proc.

He has 2 skills to regain energy, that do nothing else, but regain energy (and hp if specced)

He has all of his major attacks on cooldown. All of them!

 

So Tracer Missile either needs:

- funtionality spread to other skills

- a 6 sec cooldown like agents shiv

- damage lowered by 20% to make it even with spammable low cost abilities (without any other function) of other classes. That never ever crit for 2k

 

Or just, why not all of the above?

[AndrosX]

You have very clearly summed up the problem with Tracer Missile.

 

Please name me any other skill (Grav Round doesn't count), that does the same on any of the other classes.

 

You don't need to push anything else with all this built in functionality.

 

Look an agent for example: he has 1 skill (acid blade) for armor debuff, none of his other attacks get any form of armor debuff.

He has 2 skills (shiv and hidden strike) for TA proc.

He has 2 skills to regain energy, that do nothing else, but regain energy (and hp if specced)

He has all of his major attacks on cooldown. All of them!

 

So Tracer Missile either needs:

- funtionality spread to other skills

- a 6 sec cooldown like agents shiv

- damage lowered by 20% to make it even with spammable low cost abilities (without any other function) of other classes. That never ever crit for 2k

 

Or just, why not all of the above?

 

Because all our other skills are on a cooldown, yet we are supposed to stick our STACKING debuffs and buffs before our DPS begins to shine: they stack "up to 5 times" for a reason.

 

So, if you want us to do that without relying on Tracer Missile only to apply all the effects we need, then you need to change ALL our skills to make sure we can still apply the debuffs and buffs the way the Devs intended us to.

And you have to make sure our DPS stays consistent to the amount of DPS our class was designed to do.

Given that Pyro mercs can deal less burst but more sustained dps than we (Arsenal) can, I would say our DPS is balanced.

 

If you don't like Tracer doing all it does, then change the whole classe BUT make sure it will work as intended.

 

Edit: and don't go comparing with other classes, it doesn't work: agents have stealth and mobility, we are turrets.

Sorcerers can spam lightning and permasnare you, they also have force speed etc.. classes are too different to be compared.

All you have to consider is:

-Was Arsenal meant to be a "dmg turret"? It would seem so, given our abilities.

-Is it effective at that? Yes it is.

-Can it be countered by other classes? Yes, interrupts and melee abilities can tear us apart.

-Is the DPS balanced? Given that Pyro can deal as much if not more damage and that often you will find other classes (including sorcerers, but not limited to them) topping damage charts in arenas, I should say so.

 

That's it.

Edited February 6, 2012 by AndrosX

[Yazule]

to the OP

 

you clearly do not get it, to maximize our ability we need to stack 5 tm's on you, it is inherent in the build.

 

TM is not our big damage hit, but to maximize we need to hit you 5 times with it before our big hits are as good as they get.

 

 

Almost NOBODY is hitting 2-2.5k non crit, that is crit damage in champ gear

 

so with a normal hit being between 1.3 and 1.8k x5 fyi puts you at 6.8 to 9k damage DEBUFFING YOU and then we hs/rail/unload and you are dead.

 

They WANT us to hit you with 5 tracer missiles per 3 other attacks... it is how they designed us.

 

it is not OP, takes me 7.5seconds to hit you 5x with TM... that is an eternity in a pvp fight for you to run out of range, los, stun, interrupt, knock ....

 

you speak of what you do not understand

Edited February 6, 2012 by Yazule

[PullinStuff]

Once again your argument just comes down to "All mercenaries are bad players that just spam tracer missile and do too much damage and are too powerful." I can make the same argument for sorcerers, and it will be just as ignorant and incorrect, but you dont see the correlation.

 

No Its worse than that, this guy seems to understand Sorc.'s have a rotation, but all we see is FL, but does not bring that understanding to Arsenal. He is deliberately idiotic.

 

What I do (only lvl 24) is

TM TM RS UL (MOVE) PS QS TM PS QS (MOVE) RS UL TM TM QS (MOVE/VENT)

 

What he sees is TM TM TM TM TM TM TM TM TM TM TM TM TM

 

This kid is copping out, he knows if he really played an arsenal that it is more than TM spam...

[Rendour]

I cannot wait for a combat log so people can start to understand that they are not just being hit by tracer missile. Best thing to happen to our class would be a change to the animation and sound. I think people are more annoyed when getting hit and that translates to anger at our class in general.

 

I have played my fair share of PvP but am no way an expert (only valor 43 atm) but I do not fear other mercenaries or commandos that much. I have more problems with PT/Vanguard because of grapple, and if I run into another hybrid merc/trooper I just move on because I know I am wasting my time and will not out damage their heals even with my OMG OP tracer missile.

[Tyrpak]

Because all our other skills are on a cooldown, yet we are supposed to stick our STACKING debuffs and buffs before our DPS begins to shine: they stack "up to 5 times" for a reason.

 

That's it.

 

What you don't get, even after reading my post (thanks) :

 

All of the other classes, including sorc, have cooldown on their major skills.

Some classes have cooldowns even on their bread and butter skills.

None of the classes can hit more with his filler skill than any other skill.

 

If you compare the damager per cast time of all skills, tracer missile would be after the big finishers of other classes, but before any of the regular skills of other classes. It's just too much damage on 1 spammable, armor debuffing skill.

 

BH is not hit at dps if he uses tracer missile spam, he still beats most of the classes in the dps race, if he is using nothing but tracer missile (sorry, can't find the video, where a guy cleared all his toolbars and used only 1 button for tracer missile and still topped the dps chart).

 

If BW nerfes the tracer missile, or puts a cooldown on it, you will not be hit at the dps, cause you will have to use other skills.

 

You don't have to stack armor debuff to 5. Noone else is able to stack their buffs/debuffs that high. An agent would ... ahemm "worship" the devs, if he could gain 5 TAs.

[DervimNorth]

You have very clearly summed up the problem with Tracer Missile.

 

Please name me any other skill (Grav Round doesn't count), that does the same on any of the other classes.

 

You don't need to push anything else with all this built in functionality.

 

Look an agent for example: he has 1 skill (acid blade) for armor debuff, none of his other attacks get any form of armor debuff.

He has 2 skills (shiv and hidden strike) for TA proc.

He has 2 skills to regain energy, that do nothing else, but regain energy (and hp if specced)

He has all of his major attacks on cooldown. All of them!

 

So Tracer Missile either needs:

- funtionality spread to other skills

- a 6 sec cooldown like agents shiv

- damage lowered by 20% to make it even with spammable low cost abilities (without any other function) of other classes. That never ever crit for 2k

 

Or just, why not all of the above?

 

Because mercs don't have their burst potential, nor utility?!

 

 

Think before you compare?

[Yazule]

You have very clearly summed up the problem with Tracer Missile.

 

Please name me any other skill (Grav Round doesn't count), that does the same on any of the other classes.

 

You don't need to push anything else with all this built in functionality.

 

Look an agent for example: he has 1 skill (acid blade) for armor debuff, none of his other attacks get any form of armor debuff.

He has 2 skills (shiv and hidden strike) for TA proc.

He has 2 skills to regain energy, that do nothing else, but regain energy (and hp if specced)

He has all of his major attacks on cooldown. All of them!

 

So Tracer Missile either needs:

- funtionality spread to other skills

- a 6 sec cooldown like agents shiv

- damage lowered by 20% to make it even with spammable low cost abilities (without any other function) of other classes. That never ever crit for 2k

 

Or just, why not all of the above?

 

 

so you want us to be an agent? why not just roll an agent?

 

you clearly just DO NOT GET IT...

 

They will not completely rebuild a class from the bottom up, they built, tested, and debugged for years on these classes, what you suggest is a NEW CLASS.

 

get over it already.

 

Something nobody told you yet is our buffs/debuffs only last 5 seconds, and TM takes 1.5 to cast, meaning we need to start casting TM within 3.5 seconds of the last one cast to keep the stack up... fyi that means after every non instant attack we make we need to follow with a TM... it is the design.

 

THEY DESIGNED US TO USE TM OFTEN... GET OVER IT.

[DervimNorth]

What you don't get, even after reading my post (thanks) :

 

All of the other classes, including sorc, have cooldown on their major skills.

Some classes have cooldowns even on their bread and butter skills.

None of the classes can hit more with his filler skill than any other skill.

 

 

You...haven't played other classes much, haven't you? At least sorc you didn't, coz I'm pretty sure that their bread and butter nuke, force lighting loses the cooldown at lvl 21? And the rest of their abilities are INSTANT, just like the rest of classes, save for mercs and snipers. However snipers get lots of instant+reduced channeling time power as they lvl up, where as merc are always stuck doing 1.5x3+3+1.5x2 casts. Even as pyro, merc still has to rely on powers with channeling time.

Edited February 6, 2012 by DervimNorth

[Rendour]

Everyone always brings up that video. If you sit and watch the entire thing and all you come away with is Mercs can use 1 button to dominate PvP, I can assume you have no idea what you are talking about or never played in warzones before the 50 bracket.

 

Expertise makes a world of difference on damage in PvP, more than just looking at the numbers would suggest. Before the brackets, high expertise level 50s were completely untouchable by everyone else. I was only lvl 50 for a few days before the brackets and did not have much expertise, but it was still like night and day to me and warzones were not fun or challenging instantly. I always thought I was missing something or doing something wrong when my entire team couldn't take down a battlemaster ball carrier in Huttball.

 

If you watch that video again armed with that knowledge, you will see all that Merc does is target low level players most of whom are already low health and avoid the one or two lvl 50s. (he actually runs from a 50 sage a few times and gets bailed out by healers on his team more than once) You also have to know the key to leading in damage is staying alive, which is not that difficult when no one can do any significant damage to you due to the unreasonable advantage of expertise. What that video should teach you is that a 50 bracket was desperately needed and that players who rushed to lvl 50 and high valor at launch were basically playing with god mode against everyone else, and that even an idiot spamming one high damage skill could destroy "bolstered" players as long as he avoided even-level enemies, no one CC'd or interrupted him, and he got healing from his teammates.

[DervimNorth]

And on top of that, most of the time there a sniper with him.

[PullinStuff]

What you don't get, even after reading my post (thanks) :

 

All of the other classes, including sorc, have cooldown on their major skills.

Some classes have cooldowns even on their bread and butter skills.

None of the classes can hit more with his filler skill than any other skill.

 

If you compare the damager per cast time of all skills, tracer missile would be after the big finishers of other classes, but before any of the regular skills of other classes. It's just too much damage on 1 spammable, armor debuffing skill.

 

BH is not hit at dps if he uses tracer missile spam, he still beats most of the classes in the dps race, if he is using nothing but tracer missile (sorry, can't find the video, where a guy cleared all his toolbars and used only 1 button for tracer missile and still topped the dps chart).

 

If BW nerfes the tracer missile, or puts a cooldown on it, you will not be hit at the dps, cause you will have to use other skills.

 

You don't have to stack armor debuff to 5. Noone else is able to stack their buffs/debuffs that high. An agent would ... ahemm "worship" the devs, if he could gain 5 TAs.

 

 

Ummm.... 5 seconds, that is what we get, this "OP" buff lasts for 5 *********** seconds...

 

There is a reason there is no cooldown, for the intended mechanic to work you would have to extend the life of the debuff. If you put a cooldown on TM along with the 1.5 cast time it is UNSTACKABLE and therefore useless as it's intended mechanic, unless of course you would like to see tracer turrets laying down long term 5 stack debuffs for all to enjoy. There is a logical reason it is the way it is, stop crying and L2P, Please.

 

Arsenal Mercs are Ranged DPS, and that is all they are, they have to stand still and take the hate while other DPS classes can move, stealth etc. It is a trade off, better damage, brighter target...

 

One vid where dude uses one ability against lower level dudes... lesser equipment lesser ability...

 

"Waaaa" No one else can stack that high...

BH can't do it from cover, move and do it, AND they have longer gains...

 

Suck it up and be a better player.

Edited February 6, 2012 by PullinStuff
Typos

[Yazule]

What you don't get, even after reading my post (thanks) :

 

 

 

If BW nerfes the tracer missile, or puts a cooldown on it, you will not be hit at the dps, cause you will have to use other skills.

 

 

there is no other sentence that can possibly be posted that would in any way show you to be more ignorant of our class than this one.

 

 

TM is the hub of a wheel, EVERY SINGLE ABILITY I USE IS BUFFED/HELPED by TM

 

Tm is a 1.5 second cast and every effect that it puts (both buff and debuff) lasts 5 seconds... if you are not being hit by a tracer every 5 seconds then that arsenal is an idiot.

 

that leaves 3.5 seconds between tracers for us to do something different, BY DESIGN...

 

you put any kind of cooldown on it and it would be impossible to keep a 5 stack up.

[Stormlorr]

Tracer missile isn't broken nor is it OP. The reason your hating on Tracer missile is because of a brain dead rotation. Other classes can match or even beat our dmg output but they need more than 3 buttons to do it.

Its simple, its powerful and it happens to be the most efficient way to produce damage. Is it OP? no. Is it boring? yeah.

[MajinUltima]

Once again your argument just comes down to "All mercenaries are bad players that just spam tracer missile and do too much damage and are too powerful." I can make the same argument for sorcerers, and it will be just as ignorant and incorrect, but you dont see the correlation.

Abilities like Snipe, Thrash, Vicious Slash, Lightning Strike, etc all cost ~1/6 of the user's resource pool after talents (except LS cuz Sorc's resource functions different from the other 7 classes), same as Tracer Missile, and serve a similar role of being a filler ability for when other things are on cooldown... they have LESS talent interactions, and all do 25-40% less damage. Mathematically, the imbalance in damage is plainly obvious.

 

So Tracer Missile either needs:

- funtionality spread to other skills

- a 6 sec cooldown like agents shiv

- damage lowered by 20% to make it even with spammable low cost abilities (without any other function) of other classes. That never ever crit for 2k

 

Or just, why not all of the above?

Pretty much this. An ability like Snipe or Lightning Strike or Vicious Slash or Thrash will do ~1200 damage, Tracer Missile will do ~1600. The ability serves the same role and is used with similar frequency, and similar cost... except one does ~33% more than the others in base damage, on a spec with base 35% armor penetration, and stacks multiple buff/debuffs.

 

It's overpowered, blatantly so. Power Shot is in a similar (though less egregious) position.

[Rendour]

Then give arsenal mercs all the utility that the other classes have and I'm sure everyone would be fine with a damage reduction to tracer missile. You cannot just compare damage on one ability and ignore everything else.

 

Imagine if we had cover and were unable to be charged or pulled, that alone would be worth it.

[Lothland]

Abilities like Snipe, Thrash, Vicious Slash, Lightning Strike, etc all cost ~1/6 of the user's resource pool after talents (except LS cuz Sorc's resource functions different from the other 7 classes), same as Tracer Missile, and serve a similar role of being a filler ability for when other things are on cooldown... they have LESS talent interactions, and all do 25-40% less damage. Mathematically, the imbalance in damage is plainly obvious.

 

 

Pretty much this. An ability like Snipe or Lightning Strike or Vicious Slash or Thrash will do ~1200 damage, Tracer Missile will do ~1600. The ability serves the same role and is used with similar frequency, and similar cost... except one does ~33% more than the others in base damage, on a spec with base 35% armor penetration, and stacks multiple buff/debuffs.

 

It's overpowered, blatantly so. Power Shot is in a similar (though less egregious) position.

 

 

Yeah blatantly, you don't have any real numbers to talk about, you are talking about completely separate classes that work completely different. Tracer Missle/Grav Round with a CD is probably the dumbest idea I've seen, the only way that works is if you change it similar to a sorc/sage and make unload the filler similar to Force Lightning/Tele throw. Tracer would then have to do actual damage compared to what it does now and not the fairy tale numbers everyone here likes to post, or base it off of a BM merc against fresh 50's.

[DervimNorth]

Abilities like Snipe, Thrash, Vicious Slash, Lightning Strike, etc all cost ~1/6 of the user's resource pool after talents (except LS cuz Sorc's resource functions different from the other 7 classes), same as Tracer Missile, and serve a similar role of being a filler ability for when other things are on cooldown... they have LESS talent interactions, and all do 25-40% less damage. Mathematically, the imbalance in damage is plainly obvious.

 

 

Pretty much this. An ability like Snipe or Lightning Strike or Vicious Slash or Thrash will do ~1200 damage, Tracer Missile will do ~1600. The ability serves the same role and is used with similar frequency, and similar cost... except one does ~33% more than the others in base damage, on a spec with base 35% armor penetration, and stacks multiple buff/debuffs.

 

It's overpowered, blatantly so. Power Shot is in a similar (though less egregious) position.

 

Mathematically speaking, please do provide the numbers for those abilities. Also, it's Force Lightning that is sorc's main bread and butter power, not lightning strike. As for the snipe, well you're missing something out. It becomes a fraggin instant nuke+it gets an auto crit power AND it reduces the cd of Ambush to that of a TM. On top of that, later on it serves as a pre-requirement for the main powers and it is used again only when all other powers are on cd, but by that time, nothing stops you from re-entering the cover again and renewing the insta-snipe buff.

[PullinStuff]

Abilities like Snipe, Thrash, Vicious Slash, Lightning Strike, etc all cost ~1/6 of the user's resource pool after talents (except LS cuz Sorc's resource functions different from the other 7 classes), same as Tracer Missile, and serve a similar role of being a filler ability for when other things are on cooldown... they have LESS talent interactions, and all do 25-40% less damage. Mathematically, the imbalance in damage is plainly obvious.

 

 

Pretty much this. An ability like Snipe or Lightning Strike or Vicious Slash or Thrash will do ~1200 damage, Tracer Missile will do ~1600. The ability serves the same role and is used with similar frequency, and similar cost... except one does ~33% more than the others in base damage, on a spec with base 35% armor penetration, and stacks multiple buff/debuffs.

 

It's overpowered, blatantly so. Power Shot is in a similar (though less egregious) position.

 

Would like you to realize this is what you are afraid of...

http://www.torhead.com/ability/74A88UM/tracer-missile

 

Torhead bases these numbers on 50'd in greens, granted there are not many 50's in greens, but that is a gear issue, not an ability issue...

 

L2P.

 

Doing what the other willfully ignorant poster suggested will make the REST of the BH abilities useless and then you will actually see TMTMTMTMTMTMTMTMTMTMTMTMTMTMTMTMTMTMTMTMTMTMTM with a couple missiles/PS and rapid shot in between to soak CD.

 

The solution is easy, be better, seek improvement.

 

It is easy to bring everyone down to nerf levels, it is much harder for a bad player to be good. It is why super nerf games fail and good players are always better than bad ones.

 

I have a suggestion, go to a PVE server and then you do not have to be troubled by us arsenal spec'ed mercs...

[niela]

Working as intended!!

 

[darkonnis]

I'd like to see the Merc that hits for you for non-crit for 2k, let alone 2.5k with Tracer Missile. The only way you'll be seeing numbers even close to that is if the Merc is in Rakata/Battlemaster level gear and possibly popping Adrenals/Relics while the opponent is a fresh 50 in light armor. Its probably closer to 1700-2100 depending on target.

 

 

 

Thats a matter of your opinion. I save those CD's because if I do get interrupted, I need something to fall back on that's not my amazing Rapid Shots ability.

 

 

 

 

So you don't like 3.3-3.8k Crit Tracer Missiles, but you're content with buffing an ability that regularly crits for 5-6k?

 

 

My stats for PvP (self-buffed)

18775 HP

1884 Aim

33.5% Crit

84.3% Crit Multiplier

450 Power

 

Meh, i am inclined to agree with the OP, spamming 1 button shouldn't do as well as it does, regardless of class. Though he isn't wrong, you're making out like being a light armour class is some big thing, considering the vast majority of players are sage/sorc, this is an actual problem. Being honest, it should generate more heat the more its spammed.

 

On my marauder its instantly noticeable that this class gets more bang for its buck with this ability, because when i interupt it, most mercs/commandos just stare at me blankly or entirely give up and run for their lives until its off cd. That to me signifies a huge problem, that alot of players havent even thought of a back up plan for something so obvious. Especially when PvP is such a big part of the game, albiet, the only thing to do at 50. I imagine, this would probably work a little like arcane mage did back in wow, build charges with blast, use with any other skill, reseting the cost and bonus damage buff. Ofc, not exactly the same but anything to break the 1 button spam cant be bad. I played merc in beta and i'm doing so again now, and it is easy compared to sith assassin and faceroll mode compared to marauder. Seriously, 1 button should never = or > than an arsenal which this seems to be.

[Lothland]

Seriously, 1 button should never = or > than an arsenal which this seems to be.

 

This is the perfect example of the community all thinking that they know something when they can't even verify it. Without combat logs all people see is the numbers that flash by their char so numbers they see they assume is one ability. It doesn't help that grav/tracer have a very distinct sound so everything seems to be associated with it.

Can you spam this one button and do damage (mostly ranged DPS)? Yes just like almost every other class in this game

 

Are you terrible and doing garbage damage if you do? Yep

 

How about people start talking about their feelings about an ability now too?

Edited February 6, 2012 by Lothland

[Mapex]

Why can't Tracer Lock proc off something other than Tracer Missile, such as Power Shot and Unload? This way you are required to keep one stack of debuffs and one stack of buffs at all times using multiple abilities. It would be way more fun than using the same attack over and over again to get double the bonuses without breaking any hybrid builds.

 

All that would need to be done is to tweak the Heat costs and damage values of some abilities when the desired playstyle is being followed.

[Verakith]

I played merc in beta and i'm doing so again now, and it is easy compared to sith assassin and faceroll mode compared to marauder. Seriously, 1 button should never = or > than an arsenal which this seems to be.

 

Wait until all the other players learn to use all their buttons. Playing a simple class poorly isn't much different from playing the same class well. But playing a complex class poorly is much different from playing a complex class well. The more complex classes tend to excel when played to its fullest.

 

We can call it "Skill Tax". Of the currently few people that play the more complex classes well, they really hurt. But currently, the vocal majority is pretty bad at this game. You know how many melee just sit there and take it while I Tracer Missile away? A lot. But of the few that have the common sense to use an interrupt and possibly a short CD CC. They find that they keep my damage output low while they whittle down my health. There isn't a lot I can do other than a quick knockback and hope my TM got off a few stacks so I can use Railshot/Heatseaker/Unload. If you lock me out of TM, you lock me out of my buffed attacks which rely on TM.

Edited February 6, 2012 by Verakith

[FerrusPA]

If you lock me out of TM, you lock me out of my buffed attacks which rely on TM.

 

And this, right here, is the core of the problem with TM.

 

TM however is just one aspect of a greater, fundamentally flawed system. TOR does not, to my best knowledge, have any real rotations that build up on each other and are needed for the best possible damage. At most you use 3 skills in succession, at worst as seen with TM it's enough to spam one button and do sufficient damage in PvE and apparently PvP too.