PvP Problems

[Aneu]

Hi All,

 

Before I start I would like to give you some information on the perspective given. We are proficient gamers, we focus on PvP and have done for many years. We have been used to fighting hard for what we have gained and gaining in equal amounts to effort put in.

 

We neither expect or demand people be of the same view as us. We would like this discussion to be kept constructive and on topic.

 

---

 

Casual Wars: The Old Republic

Currently the game is focused primarily on casual gamers. While this is not a supprise for such a mainstream and commercial IP we were very much expecting something for those of us who want a little more to sink our teeth into.

 

Currently the fundamental problems being faced by like minded groups are:-

• Commendation Conversion NPC
  
• Daily/Weekly Quests for endgame PvP gear
  
• RNG on Endgame PvP Items
  
• PUG Groups
  
• Synergy between Warzones and Ilum
  
• Warzone Input > Reward
  

 

Lets tackle these problems individually.

 

Commendation Conversion NPC

 

As it stands it is far more beneficial to spend at max 15min in a warzone to gain generally a minimum of 60 Warzone Commendations which can then be converted into 20 Mercenary Commendations. You can go to the Outlaws den and have the possibility of getting 20 Mercenary Commendations (Which from start to finish will take more than 15min) however there is no 100% guarantee of any Merc Commendations, with Warzones there is a 100% guarantee. You could also go to Ilum and possibly get the chance to engage in Open world PvP however you will find most people are in Warzones.

Daily/Weekly Quests for endgame PvP gear

 

Added in the final launch build, the only way to get battle master gear currently is to do daily PvP or weekly PvP quests. That means that everyone, no matter of time spent or effort put in will get the same chance at getting gear, but worse than that is the RNG effect that has been implemented (next point). I feel that if you put the effort and time in to gain gear faster than someone else then why should you not be rewarded? Hence the title "Casual Wars". No casual player in their right mind should expect to keep up with a hardcore player in terms of gear progression however this has been nullified by Bioware anyway.

 

RNG on endgame PvP gear

With the ability to get Battlemaster Cases from the PvP vendor removed and the only way to get them through daily and weekly quests added I really feel this has added insult to injury with the RNG factor.

 

As mentioned in a previous post which has now been deleted (Of which almost 300 people voted in) I high lighted how the RNG works within SWTOR. That has been reduced somewhat by taking away 4 items of a possible 14, meaning the sets are now 10 piece. The problem comes with the fact that a random number generator decides what gear, if any, you get. The possibility is you now can get 11 items, the most common being "Champion Commendations" which give you access to the lesser gear.

 

Once again this brings up the point of effort > reward mechanics. If a player puts in more effort and spends more time, you would expect them to have better gear, with this in place that is once again nullified by Bioware. Effort is not rewarded so you could have a hardcore pvp player running around in one or two battlemaster items however some very lucky individual who is not good at pvp who doesn't put the same amount of time in as said hardcore player running around in a full outfit simply due to luck. That doesn't send a good message for anyone in terms of gaming or real life. Effort and time spent must have a reward to it.

 

PUG Groups

 

One of the many arguments given by core PvE players are that they have had to deal with randomness throughout their game time. With SWTOR a new mechanic was added where all raid players get a loot bag with individual items assigned to their class (please confirm or deny) which has alleviated that problem (somewhat). The other thing is that PvE players get to choose who they group up with, even if its a PUG. As a competitive PvP group we would like to choose who we group up with fully. That is not the case.

 

There are many fixes to this such as adding tick boxes, premades only vs premades and a huge plethora of others, sadly they have all been ignored.

 

Syngery between Warzone and Open World

 

This was previously touched on however we feel it requires far more attention. Currently there is absolutely no reason to go to Ilum or the Outlaws Den. The speeders added to the OD's vendors are for vanity use only and serve very little purpose, the possibility of getting Merc Commendations doesn't add up to the guarantee of getting them from Warzones. The Commendation Vendor completely distorts any viability of Open world PvP. Those of us who love and enjoy the chaos and fast action of large battles seem to be penalised by this very peculiar addition to the game.

 

Warzone Input > Reward

 

As proven by a few of my members in this current build, you are able to run against a wall, deal no damage, protect nobody and heal absolutely nothing and still gain 60 Warzone commendations, almost max XP and full credits. This to me is ludicrous!? What are you thinking Bioware? People should be rewarded on effort and attention given, currently it is a complete shambles. As well as finding 3 bugs that are incredibly exploitable (in a final build I may add) the current back end system used to formulate rewards is an abomination. Its quite simple and easy to design a reward system, you require 8 tiers of rewards for each section (damage/healing/protection/objectives), decide on what is the max commendations you want people to earn (60) add 12 for good measure (and to make it easier) then divide 72 by 4 which means you have 18 to split between 8 ranks.

Best

1-5

2-4

3-3

4-2

5-2

6-1

7-1

8-0

worst

Spread that along all 4 sections and there you have it, a system that rewards people who do damage or heal/protect/score. Obviously those numbers are just random and can be put up or down to what is wanted/desired.

 

Conclusion

 

Currently the PvP in SWTOR has no real meaning to it, there are no objectives no catalyst to promote fighting from both sides (Considering this is called Star WARS one would expect people fighting). The canvas that Bioware currently has is great however it will not hold onto any form of dedicated PvPer for long with its current lack lustre attitude.

 

Our desire when we started testing was that Bioware would make a story focused game and implemented both PvE and PvP with equal measure, sadly this has not come to pass, I am not sure how the PvE currently stands but the PvP really leaves a huge amount to be desired.

 

The only way within which Bioware can come out of this and keep us ticking would be to provide us with a taste of what they have planned for the future (Obviously with corporate types and the "SPIES ARE ALL AROUND" attitude they cant provide concrete information), the other side to that is acknowledgement that the current PvP system is not fit for purpose and a commitment to fix what is currently a very poorly designed system. This really is not a lot to ask of a developer such as Bioware especially not in the current climate of such social interaction and vast array of tools that can be used to communicate.

 

Great starting blocks are founded however a commitment to us, your future subscriber base will be required in order to keep us on board with such a system. Great work on a good product and lets hope that major leaps and bounds are made on every front (especially PvP in our view ).

 

Kind Regards

Aneu

Edited December 13, 2011 by Aneu

[Izola]

agreed

[Twitchx]

I'm sure PvP will get stronger as the game matures. I don't have any worries.

[Brimestar]

It's the first day....Rome wasn't built in a day. Everything takes time.

[Tonhl]

I'm sure PvP will get stronger as the game matures. I don't have any worries.

 

I think exactly the same

I didnt had the chance to betabesta the game, but every game will develop in time, so SWTOR will do in my opinion.

Ancyase, thanks for you input m8!

[Izola]

lot of resources for PvP, we should be fine.

[Austegard]

Yea I agree as well. The PvP is def lacking. I wish they would really concentrate on world PVP.

This might be the game that takes RvR to a whole new level. Honestly Im tired of controlled pvp (BGs/Arena). The MMO world needs RvR and for it to be done correctly.

[Vil-lynne]

Yet still allowing the Casual Gamer majority of players to remain reasonably competitive against the minority full-time gamers; otherwise, the Casual Gamer majority will get frustrated and cancel. A discontent majority is far worse than a discontent minority. Edited December 13, 2011 by Vil-lynne

[Cassion]

I think op makes some valid points. PvP should strike a balance between where casual and hardcore players find it enjoyable. I'm more of a casual PvP player but if I get bored with pve I'd like to know the pvp environment supports a very competitve level of gaming. The game is only just starting and will continue to evolve. Should be a fun ride!

[Rhinoplat]

Yet still allowing the Casual Gamer majority of players to remain reasonably competitive against the minority full-time gamers; otherwise, the Casual Gamer majority will get frustrated and cancel. A discontent majority is far worse than a discontent minority.

 

EvE, a PvP game built from the ground up, strikes a good balance between their PvP content and their PvE content, and allowing players to enter PvP. The problem is when PvE games try and add on PvP. A game needs to be thought of as PvP from the outset.

 

SWTOR is story driven, as good as that story is, BioWare needs to make a shift in their thought if they are ever going to get PvP right.

[eroscastaldi]

Honeslty?i dont agree with your point.

Im working 8 hours per day, im married and i like to go out and drink with friend sometime. i am also a HUGE gamer, i love playing mmorpg and im doing it since i was 15(im 25 now)and i dont see why i shoul get killed by someone who have more free time than me.

you talking about skill but it only seems that you are intrested in gearing faster than casual gamer in order to pew pew.

and abut the efford stuff, i dont see any efford in someone who play 18 hours out of 24 per day.

try to work, pay your bill, make a woman happy and find the time to play, thats an efford mate or at least the one that should be rewarded.

[Aneu]

Honeslty?i dont agree with your point.

Im working 8 hours per day, im married and i like to go out and drink with friend sometime. i am also a HUGE gamer, i love playing mmorpg and im doing it since i was 15(im 25 now)and i dont see why i shoul get killed by someone who have more free time than me.

you talking about skill but it only seems that you are intrested in gearing faster than casual gamer in order to pew pew.

and abut the efford stuff, i dont see any efford in someone who play 18 hours out of 24 per day.

try to work, pay your bill, make a woman happy and find the time to play, thats an efford mate or at least the one that should be rewarded.

 

Simply no...

[Lheoryk]

Honeslty?i dont agree with your point.

Im working 8 hours per day, im married and i like to go out and drink with friend sometime. i am also a HUGE gamer, i love playing mmorpg and im doing it since i was 15(im 25 now)and i dont see why i shoul get killed by someone who have more free time than me.

you talking about skill but it only seems that you are intrested in gearing faster than casual gamer in order to pew pew.

and abut the efford stuff, i dont see any efford in someone who play 18 hours out of 24 per day.

try to work, pay your bill, make a woman happy and find the time to play, thats an efford mate or at least the one that should be rewarded.

 

Yes...

 

@Aneu...saying no to please a woman... I'm questioning your priorities in life!!!

[Lemmy_DB]

Hmm.. Surely hardcore PVPers should be winning due to co-ordination+skill rather than a gear advantage..

 

Do you actually want competition or just to faceroll?

 

Facerolling gets boring quick (been there) as does being facerolled (been there too). Even fights are where its at.

 

Personally, I've always been for a level playing field for gear in PVP.

 

Giving better players the better gear is like asking me to fight the heavyweight boxing champ - and then giving him a baseball bat and me a herring. Overkill?

[eroscastaldi]

simply no what?please state Edited December 13, 2011 by eroscastaldi

[Mishmashmoo]

agreed

[Gvaz]

Ridiculous points of view, OP is ********? Pathetic ideas...

 

Not at all. There were quite a few of us permatesters, we're familiar with the problems.

Edited December 13, 2011 by Gvaz

[Teiranis]

This sort of instance is going to happen, the hardcore vs the casual. This spans out into every aspect of our real world.

 

For instance,I go the the gym (I know most look at a gym like a manual transmission)and work out as much as I can. When I go, there is always that Hulk dude that is all hardcore to the hilt because it is what he does. Does this influence the way I spend my work out time, or even the end result of working out? No. Will I ever be that huge, I hope not. I just want to spend a little time blowing off steam and enjoy the company of others and have some fun.

 

This goes for everything just about. Cooking, driving, art, sex...there will always be the hardcore and the overly devoted fanatics. Why worry about being hardcore and being able to keep up with the Jones', just have fun.

 

I like some of the topics the OP posited and Im sure some will make it in game at some times, but man that sounds a lot like what WOW has going on, just my opinion. Yet here is the fundamental issue I have with his argument about PVP being valueless: It's PVP son, if you spend the time to write this wonderfully manicured post about PVP, then you truly love PVP. And if you do, that is all the reward you need from killing.

 

tl;dr: PVP to PVP, we dont need PVP awards to feel strong.

[Zo-So]

this isn't a hardcore vs casual post or a debate.

 

it's simply the case of another carebear wanting an easy button (that is you OP). the whole nature of PVP is to pwn faces. if you're PVP'ing for the gear - YOU'RE DOING IT FOR THE WRONG REASONS.

 

you want the best gear by smashing PUGs? you deserve gear for that just as much as a joe-married - which is NOT AT ALL.

Edited December 13, 2011 by Zo-So

[Fenriswolve]

Honeslty?i dont agree with your point.

Im working 8 hours per day, im married and i like to go out and drink with friend sometime. i am also a HUGE gamer, i love playing mmorpg and im doing it since i was 15(im 25 now)and i dont see why i shoul get killed by someone who have more free time than me.

you talking about skill but it only seems that you are intrested in gearing faster than casual gamer in order to pew pew.

and abut the efford stuff, i dont see any efford in someone who play 18 hours out of 24 per day.

try to work, pay your bill, make a woman happy and find the time to play, thats an efford mate or at least the one that should be rewarded.

 

Exactly, Pvp should be skill based not gear based. This garbage about getting high lvl pvp gear faster only because you play ALOT more ruins endgame pvp. This was one of the reasons T4 pvp in Warhammer sucked, the new 40's had no chance against us. Some of the best fights in any pvp is when there is a risk of death, there is very little risk of death when you have your enemy outgeared unless you ...... or don't try. Anyway i'm sure BW will go the way the OP wants eventually because thats how every other MMO's has gone. The very vocal minority will push BW for the changes they want and the casual to semi hardcore will get ... Either way i will be here.

[xneoxxx]

HAHAH check out this guy, he made a video abotu swtor EGA hahaha hes angry!!

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIDZ0kTI2Uw

[Ajeee]

It's the first day....Rome wasn't built in a day. Everything takes time.

 

There's been months of beta testing buddy. Do you honestly think that is based on today?

 

With that said thinks can and most likely will change. The fact that they cater casuals is quite worrying though, even though I'm not so surprised. I do however feel its important to express our thaughts on the issue and push for the better in the future.

[Synpheous]

I agree 100%. Very constructive and informative post.

 

Rift lost my sub when they did nothing dynamic with pvp. WoW is losing my sub- they've watered down rated pvp and completely destroyed world pvp. I have faith in Bioware.

 

 

You have my sword OP!

[Apollonel]

i read a bit of what the OPer says, very quickly,

and if i'm not mistaken he believes that the rewards arent good enough to make people want to pvp.

 

well, i pvp for the win, and for fun. the rewards will not change that.

in fact, i hope this game is not gear-based, and pvp is competitive, and not judged by your /played.

 

and i'm not some casual pvper, been rank14 in wow, and on the best EU guild in warhammer.

and i dont want my teammates to want to pvp for their epeen or loot. pvping is about victory, and fun.

not a carrot-on-a-stick race.

 

but then again, i might have misread the OP, and not understood it correctly,

so dont mind my arguments.

Edited December 13, 2011 by Apollonel

[Yurtalpus]

Honeslty?i dont agree with your point.

Im working 8 hours per day, im married and i like to go out and drink with friend sometime. i am also a HUGE gamer, i love playing mmorpg and im doing it since i was 15(im 25 now)and i dont see why i shoul get killed by someone who have more free time than me.

you talking about skill but it only seems that you are intrested in gearing faster than casual gamer in order to pew pew.

and abut the efford stuff, i dont see any efford in someone who play 18 hours out of 24 per day.

try to work, pay your bill, make a woman happy and find the time to play, thats an efford mate or at least the one that should be rewarded.

 

 

 

So, I should be able to call my boss and tell them I have other things I would like to do and they should keep paying me that same for doing less? Gotcha.

 

Yeah, this is basically what your saying.

 

And before you decided to attack me, I have a full time job, I go out with friends, and I DONT spend every waking hour playing games.