Carnage Tree and Its Future

[JediMasterKent]

Hi guys Edited February 5, 2012 by JediMasterKent

[CrazyAl]

Carnage is weak:

• Least survivability of all 3 specs
  
• Worst overall damage output
  
• Needs to stay on target the whole dps cycle.
  

 

Now BW buffs the best of all 3 specs: Annihilation =\

 

IMHO Carnage needs about +50% overall damage increase to be remotely viable in WZ. Playing full champ Carnage Mara with about 650exp, rarely break 150k dmg solo and with healer my absolute best score was 250k. Have never ever inflicted more then 3.8k crit. Terrible, BW, terrible spec.

 

youre doing it wrong

 

i played rage from pre 50 to full champ, switched to annihilation about a week ago, i have only played carnage intermittently

 

i popped over to carnage the other day, first game, no practice ... solo queue ... no heals ... 372k damage, 10 medals ...

 

youre doing it wrong

 

ps. big crit is absolutely irrelevant, annihilation, your so called best spec, will only give you about a 3.8k big crit as well ... so thats clearly a nonsensical argument

[CrazyAl]

Carnage isn't nearly as bad as people think. It's just too reliant on Gore and on top of that it lacks a bit of damage. It's far better than Rage, which they can't really buff directly since it's already very good for Juggs due to their +30% Smash damage talent.

 

i think a vast majority of people perform better with rage than carnage, youd be hard pressed to call carnage a better tree, particularly "far better"

 

you may do better with it, thats fine, some people perform better with one spec than they do with another, but by all accounts it seems rage users perform better than carnage users

 

also, juggs may get 30% bonus to smash damage, but it costs more rage (and they dont have battering assault so they build rage slower) and has a higher CD, so over the course of a match they arent really getting 30% more damage from all the smashes compared to a marauder

[Bloodymoon]

Just two things:

 

1. Force Scream does benefit from Gore

2. Ataru procs do scale

[Precurso]

Ok, when I posted OP I had Ataru procs and massacre on my mind that needed fixing/adjusting. Still, nice to see some discussion for carnage tree.

 

I switched to carnage spec few days ago before we did Karagga's palace HM. It's nice to be able to spam massacre and yellow+white numbers flying around. But then at final boss (Karagga) I noticed the horrible thing as someone mentioned on forums before: Ataru doesn't proc on bosses with big hitboxes! I was furious! I basicly had to move right under the thing to see massacre proc ataru hits, else it wouldn't proc at all.

 

I've always played Anni but i kinda got bored by not being able to use berserk in certain places in EV or some other instances. It didn't feel too bursty either. Having 8 rakata pieces and rest in columi set I thought hey I maybe can do some nice bursts with Carnage, so I switched. While the Massacre hit itself did some ok dmg, the ataru proc dmg was still pitiful. Also not being able to force charge at 0m was frustrating. I noticed why I played Anni, it has so many utilities.

 

For Carnage tree to be viable:

 

1- Ataru procs should be a % of our main hand and not a flat number

2- Ataru procs on bosses with big hitboxes dont work, this is a gamebreaker and should be fixed

3- It's hard to squeeze in many hits in Gore's 6 second armor pen debuff.

4- I am not noticing the +15% run speed in ataru form at all! Even Rage tree has speed buff after use of obliterate. Mobility needs to increase in Carnage tree, say +20/30% movement increase for X seconds with ataru procs.

 

i am obviously switching back to Anni spec, but it would be nice to have another viable tree for raiding.

Edited February 5, 2012 by Precurso

[Tumri]

i think a vast majority of people perform better with rage than carnage, youd be hard pressed to call carnage a better tree, particularly "far better"

 

you may do better with it, thats fine, some people perform better with one spec than they do with another, but by all accounts it seems rage users perform better than carnage users

 

also, juggs may get 30% bonus to smash damage, but it costs more rage (and they dont have battering assault so they build rage slower) and has a higher CD, so over the course of a match they arent really getting 30% more damage from all the smashes compared to a marauder

 

Juggs get a 3s lower cooldown on Smash as well as 30% extra damage. It doesn't even out at all. Their rage spec is simply better for both burst DPS and sustained PvE DPS.

 

Rage spec is the only simple "even a monkey could do it" spec that that Marauders have. That's part of the reason why some people use it in PvP. It's also good for having decent numbers at the end on the scoreboard despite being worthless in the game outside of doing some AoE damage once in a while.

[Bloodymoon]

1- Ataru procs should be a % of our main hand and not a flat number

 

Ataru scales with Force Power

[Yescek]

youre doing it wrong

 

i played rage from pre 50 to full champ, switched to annihilation about a week ago, i have only played carnage intermittently

 

i popped over to carnage the other day, first game, no practice ... solo queue ... no heals ... 372k damage, 10 medals ...

 

youre doing it wrong

 

ps. big crit is absolutely irrelevant, annihilation, your so called best spec, will only give you about a 3.8k big crit as well ... so thats clearly a nonsensical argument

 

I demand a screenshot of this.

 

Ok, when I posted OP I had Ataru procs and massacre on my mind that needed fixing/adjusting. Still, nice to see some discussion for carnage tree.

 

I switched to carnage spec few days ago before we did Karagga's palace HM. It's nice to be able to spam massacre and yellow+white numbers flying around. But then at final boss (Karagga) I noticed the horrible thing as someone mentioned on forums before: Ataru doesn't proc on bosses with big hitboxes! I was furious! I basicly had to move right under the thing to see massacre proc ataru hits, else it wouldn't proc at all.

 

I've always played Anni but i kinda got bored by not being able to use berserk in certain places in EV or some other instances. It didn't feel too bursty either. Having 8 rakata pieces and rest in columi set I thought hey I maybe can do some nice bursts with Carnage, so I switched. While the Massacre hit itself did some ok dmg, the ataru proc dmg was still pitiful. Also not being able to force charge at 0m was frustrating. I noticed why I played Anni, it has so many utilities.

 

For Carnage tree to be viable:

 

1- Ataru procs should be a % of our main hand and not a flat number

2- Ataru procs on bosses with big hitboxes dont work, this is a gamebreaker and should be fixed

3- It's hard to squeeze in many hits in Gore's 6 second armor pen debuff.

4- I am not noticing the +15% run speed in ataru form at all! Even Rage tree has speed buff after use of obliterate. Mobility needs to increase in Carnage tree, say +20/30% movement increase for X seconds with ataru procs.

 

i am obviously switching back to Anni spec, but it would be nice to have another viable tree for raiding.

 

Carnage *IS* viable for Raiding. It's just not OPTIMAL. If your footwork is good, you can get in and drop your Falcon Pawnch every time it's up successfully. However, aside from this, your role becomes one of Obsfucation/Disruption/Heal-Debuff/Predation/Bloodthrist Machine.

 

1- Ataru procs should be a % of our main hand and not a flat number

 

Ataru scales with Force Power

 

God really? So if I follow you, in order to get Ataru procs to not be worthless Blood Frenzy strikes, we need to stack a SORC stat?

[Precurso]

1- Ataru procs should be a % of our main hand and not a flat number

 

Ataru scales with Force Power

 

Ataru proc is pitiful damage. Even Anni tree bleed ticks are higher than this proc and bleed ticks are 100% chance every second instead of 20% chance of ataru proc. Are you trying to be an arse or why do you keep repeating the same quote?

Bleed tick > Ataru proc

Bleed ticks stay on target even if u're dead, for ataru proc u have to melee

Bleed ticks heal you for 3% of your hp with Bersek, Ataru procs = ?

Ataru proc dmg should at least be 80-90% of mainhand hit and/or slow enemy and/or heal you for some amount

[CrazyAl]

Juggs get a 3s lower cooldown on Smash as well as 30% extra damage. It doesn't even out at all. Their rage spec is simply better for both burst DPS and sustained PvE DPS.

 

Rage spec is the only simple "even a monkey could do it" spec that that Marauders have. That's part of the reason why some people use it in PvP. It's also good for having decent numbers at the end on the scoreboard despite being worthless in the game outside of doing some AoE damage once in a while.

 

and marauders get a 6 second reduction

 

im not saying that juggs spec isnt better, what im saying is that the 30% bonus to smash, in and of itself, does not make as big an impact as one might think

 

in my experience the reason why a good jugg in a good group will perform better with rage than a good marauder in a good group is because a jugg is a tank class, slap a healer on them and they will live longer than a marauder with a healer, less time dead = better performance

 

ive rarely ever seen rage juggs (even ones i know are good player) do significantly better than me (when i was rage) in a pug WZ group, and generally i would be slightly above them

 

by significantly i mean more than 10% above me in damage/kills

 

 

rage for marauder is anything but worthless, smash being AoE is (or should be) just an afterthought to the player, its your highest damage ability vs a single target, the aoe is a just a bonus when the occasion arises

 

sure you can search for big aoe smashes to fluff your numbers, but then you are being worthless as a player, thats not the classes fault

 

you can play rage as part of a team, not just as a single idiot going for high damage, and be just as effective as you can with annihilation

[CrazyAl]

I demand a screenshot of this.

 

sadly i dont think i took one, as my performance was nothing special in that game

[Bloodymoon]

Ataru proc is pitiful damage. Even Anni tree bleed ticks are higher than this proc and bleed ticks are 100% chance every second instead of 20% chance of ataru proc. Are you trying to be an arse or why do you keep repeating the same quote?

Bleed tick > Ataru proc

Bleed ticks stay on target even if u're dead, for ataru proc u have to melee

Bleed ticks heal you for 3% of your hp with Bersek, Ataru procs = ?

Ataru proc dmg should at least be 80-90% of mainhand hit and/or slow enemy and/or heal you for some amount

 

First, I post it because it is often posted incorrectly.

Second, Carnage is not Anni - from what you are writing, it seems you want Carnage changed to be more like Anni.

 

Also, the formular for Ataru should be this:

 

(Bonus DMG Force / 4,34) *2 + 25

 

Sorry for writing Force Power - altough it does of cource influence Ataru damage (and we get Force Power via our sabers), I meant the Bonus Damage of Force.

 

Unbuffed, I currently have 344 Ataru dmg, buffed I have 375. With some debuffs it usually crits for 800, over 1000 with Gore. Of course it is not as high as Anni bleeds, but imho they should not be.

Edited February 5, 2012 by Bloodymoon

[Yescek]

sadly i dont think i took one, as my performance was nothing special in that game

 

I have a screenshot at home that is of me getting highest hit of 3.8k, total dmg 288k, and that's the BEST I've EVER done and I've been Carnage since Day 1, so I believe I know the spec and how to play it by now. I'll post it when I get home for anyone who doesn't believe that Carnage can do that.

 

I demanded a screenshot because I've yet to see anyone who rolls Carnage break 300k in today's environment. Now, if this was back in late December and you were one of the people who took full advantage of the Warzone bug in EGA and was 50/60 by the first week, full champion by the second, then i'd have believed it. With Relic/Adrenal/Expertise Stim/WZ Buff stacking, i'd have believed 450k+. However, recently, TODAY, I know of no non-full Battlemaster Marauder that can break 300k.

 

Doesn't mean it doesn't happen, I just have yet to see it.

 

First, I post it because it is often posted incorrectly.

Second, Carnage is not Anni - from what you are writing, it seems you want Carnage changed to be more like Anni.

 

Also, the formular for Ataru should be this:

 

(Bonus DMG Force / 4,34) *2 + 25

 

Sorry for writing Force Power - altough it does of cource influence Ataru damage (and we get Force Power via our sabers), I meant the Bonus Damage of Force.

 

Unbuffed, I currently have 344 Ataru dmg, buffed I have 375. With some debuffs it usually crits for 800, over 1000 with Gore. Of course it is not as high as Anni bleeds, but imho they should not be.

 

Thank you for explaining this. Note to self: Stack more Power.

[JediMasterKent]

Hi guys, combat sentinel Ilis here. I don't use any kinds of stims or adrenals when I enter warzones. Just check out my damage done!

 

http://i.imgur.com/rABy8.jpg enjoy!

[CrazyAl]

I have a screenshot at home that is of me getting highest hit of 3.8k, total dmg 288k, and that's the BEST I've EVER done and I've been Carnage since Day 1, so I believe I know the spec and how to play it by now. I'll post it when I get home for anyone who doesn't believe that Carnage can do that.

 

I demanded a screenshot because I've yet to see anyone who rolls Carnage break 300k in today's environment. Now, if this was back in late December and you were one of the people who took full advantage of the Warzone bug in EGA and was 50/60 by the first week, full champion by the second, then i'd have believed it. With Relic/Adrenal/Expertise Stim/WZ Buff stacking, i'd have believed 450k+. However, recently, TODAY, I know of no non-full Battlemaster Marauder that can break 300k.

 

Doesn't mean it doesn't happen, I just have yet to see it.

 

 

 

Thank you for explaining this. Note to self: Stack more Power.

 

well, just for you, since im in a good mood today, ill go respec carnage for you and take a screenie

[AcaciaDragon]

Hi guys, combat sentinel Ilis here. I don't use any kinds of stims or adrenals when I enter warzones. Just check out my damage done!

 

http://i.imgur.com/rABy8.jpg enjoy!

 

Its easy to pull numbers like that on voidstar with a healer.

[Anbokr]

Yeah, gore needs to be fiddled with, as well as ataru scaling. Whoever said make gore charge based or stack based (like annhilate); I like that idea best--it's not good design to have an entire spec revolve around a 5 second buff.

[CrazyAl]

Hi guys, combat sentinel Ilis here. I don't use any kinds of stims or adrenals when I enter warzones. Just check out my damage done!

 

http://i.imgur.com/rABy8.jpg enjoy!

 

2 healers healing, 2 tanks guarding

 

damage doesnt mean much in a game like that, voidstar right?

[Yescek]

well, just for you, since im in a good mood today, ill go respec carnage for you and take a screenie

 

Cool, looking forward to it.

[CrazyAl]

Cool, looking forward to it.

 

first game, solo queue, against a premade

 

270k, 41-6, 8 medals

 

no SS cause it wasnt 300k, but i have to go now (SUPER BOWL!! ... well, beer! really ) so ill try again later

[Deathsvalor]

and marauders get a 6 second reduction

 

im not saying that juggs spec isnt better, what im saying is that the 30% bonus to smash, in and of itself, does not make as big an impact as one might think

 

Both have access to Force Alacrity in the Rage tree(3 second reduction). Juggs get an additional 3 seconds and a 30% boost to Smash damage from Decimate in the Vengeance tree. Marauders get an additional 3 seconds from Quick Recovery in the Annihilation tree.

 

They both get 6 second reductions just juggs have 30% more burst. Marauders may put out similar damage overall in Rage spec due to more rage generation from battering assault allowing more Vicious Slash's to be used between bursts. However, they do not bring the high burst damage that the Juggs do when running Rage.

[CrazyAl]

Both have access to Force Alacrity in the Rage tree(3 second reduction). Juggs get an additional 3 seconds and a 30% boost to Smash damage from Decimate in the Vengeance tree. Marauders get an additional 3 seconds from Quick Recovery in the Annihilation tree.

 

They both get 6 second reductions just juggs have 30% more burst. Marauders may put out similar damage overall in Rage spec due to more rage generation from battering assault allowing more Vicious Slash's to be used between bursts. However, they do not bring the high burst damage that the Juggs do when running Rage.

 

guess i missed that one

 

but its aside from the point ...

 

the question wasnt who has a better smash, thats clear, it was whether or not rage jugg is better than rage mara, and they are pretty equal

[ZakPreston]

A 50% overall damage increase? Really? REALLY?

 

Just buff it's usability in PvP by making Gore weaker with 100% up time. Buff the damage by about 15% to bring it up to par with Annihilation.

 

Carnage isn't nearly as bad as people think. It's just too reliant on Gore and on top of that it lacks a bit of damage. It's far better than Rage, which they can't really buff directly since it's already very good for Juggs due to their +30% Smash damage talent.

 

Carnage is not as reliable as Annihilation:

• Anni: use combo buildup, put bleeds and while you are stunned/rooted, slowed, pushed back your dots still tick. Like properly played Feral Druid who could beat any class in 4.0 till 4.0.6
  
• Carnage: buggy Ravage (a big part of dps) , countered by any scrub, buildup Massacre + Gore + Scream, Berserked Massacre spam are the reasons that demand almost 100% uptime on taget.
  

 

MAYBE their damage is comparable while PvE, but in PvP terms hit-n-kite strategy of Anni is more valuable. And don't forget that while being on taget 100% time means that yo will be hit as well.

 

 

Anyway, can any experienced PvP Raid Leader tell me why would he take Carnage Marauder over:

• Assassin (any)
  
• Rage or Vengeance/Immortal hybrid Juggernout
  
• Any DD-specced Operative?
  

Edited February 5, 2012 by ZakPreston

[Yescek]

Carnage is not as reliable as Annihilation:

• Anni: use combo buildup, put bleeds and while you are stunned/rooted, slowed, pushed back your dots still tick. Like properly played Feral Druid who could beat any class in 4.0 till 4.0.6
  
• Carnage: buggy Ravage (a big part of dps) , countered by any scrub, buildup Massacre + Gore + Scream, Berserked Massacre spam are the reasons that demand almost 100% uptime on taget.
  

 

MAYBE their damage is comparable while PvE, but in PvP terms hit-n-kite strategy of Anni is more valuable. And don't forget that while being on taget 100% time means that yo will be hit as well.

 

 

Anyway, can any experienced PvP Raid Leader tell me why would he take Carnage Marauder over:

• Assassin (any)
  
• Rage or Vengeance/Immortal hybrid Juggernout
  
• Any DD-specced Operative?
  

 

1. Burst MAYBE, but over a period of time I can STILL outdamage any Assassin.

2. Lolwut? Not sure if serious.

3. Pfft, only if you can magically undo the supernerf they got.

[atreyuz]

Been playing carnage since today in PvP, doing good, and I think the spec is overall great fun in terms of gameplay...

 

The roots on ravage/DeadlyThrow are annoying as hell. You can seriously stop one guy from moving for an eternity. Roots not generating any resolve is ******** in my opinion.

Edited February 6, 2012 by atreyuz