caultonpos Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 Of course I use it - its not affected by the gcd so basically it is a free hit - very important in PvP and PvE if you are ever in a hurry to burn down an opponent. If you are worried about rage - use it and then use a normal assault attack to get your rage back - basically thats equivalent damage to one Force Scream. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrazyAl Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 If you are worried about rage - use it and then use a normal assault attack to get your rage back - basically thats equivalent damage to one Force Scream. the problem with that is if you have the rage for retaliate you have the rage for something else if you have the rage for ONLY retaliate, its better spent on a higher damage ability, then you can use assault after, get rage back and you will have done more damage if, however, you have a lot of rage then there is no reason not to use it, and plenty of reasons to use it in wow, where rage was automatic and (essentially) never ending, the only thing that mattered in your priority was damage per second in TOR where you have to actively generate rage you have to factor damage per second of abilities, but also damage per rage if you dont have the extra rage to "waste" on a retaliate, its not worth spending it, as its got a much lower damage per rage than other abilities if you have an abundance of rage, the downside is minimal because you will still have more than enough rage for your higher damage per rage abilities Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caultonpos Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 I disagree. Lets suppose you have 3 rage left, your force scream is up and so is your retaliate. You could a) Use force scream b) Then use Assault c) But by then retaliate may not be up and so you use Vicious Slash On my lvl 18 stats that would be a combined min damage of 810 You have 0 rage left Alternatively a) Use Retaliate + Assault in the same second b) Then Force Scream c) Then Assault and On my stats that is the combined min damage of 898 You have 3 rage left Retaliate is an extra hit, that's what makes the difference plus in the above scenario you have 3 rage left versus being empty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rife Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 Add a small bleed after the initial damage.. or remove the initial damage and make it another normal damage bleed. Same activation requiremets. Fixed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrazyAl Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 I disagree. Lets suppose you have 3 rage left, your force scream is up and so is your retaliate. You could a) Use force scream b) Then use Assault c) But by then retaliate may not be up and so you use Vicious Slash On my lvl 18 stats that would be a combined min damage of 810 You have 0 rage left Alternatively a) Use Retaliate + Assault in the same second b) Then Force Scream c) Then Assault and On my stats that is the combined min damage of 898 You have 3 rage left Retaliate is an extra hit, that's what makes the difference plus in the above scenario you have 3 rage left versus being empty. level 18 doesnt count, the game isnt balance around level 18 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caultonpos Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 level 18 doesnt count, the game isnt balance around level 18 Do you actually have an example of higher dps using alternatives to retaliation Didnt think so Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AcaciaDragon Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 (edited) level 18 doesnt count, the game isnt balance around level 18 His/Her point is valid. Being lvl 18 makes no difference in the example as the same situation would have happened in a level 50. As Carnage if i had a full bar after the situation you described(Charge, BA stunned), I would Massacre, Gore, Scream, Massacre, leaving me with 4 rage left. Enough to pop a root or a slow to make sure my opponent cant move. I would not use that last 4(i got 1 from blood fenzy) rage on retaliate, or build up rage simply to use retaliate. It then just becomes another one of our on GCD moves. However using it while i intentionally need to build rage to setup another combo is different as being off the GCD is a greater benefit. Edited February 4, 2012 by AcaciaDragon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoolJaZ Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 It's gotten me plenty of killing blows, the skill is there, use it or not. Just like Savage Kick or Pommel Strike. You choose what to use. I use it all the time, it's almost always up and doesn't affect my rotation much at all. The only reason why is my rotation is very situational and not static. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrazyAl Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 Do you actually have an example of higher dps using alternatives to retaliation Didnt think so well, for one, neither of those combos you mentioned would be possible as at level 18 scream would cost you 4 rage for two, at 50, where the game is balanced (intended to be at least), you will do other things with such a limited amount of rage that would completely out damage retaliation for three, what ranks are your abilities at level 18, was retaliate more recently trained than VS? either way it invalidates this example unless its being limited to level 18 usage, in which case ... who cares fourthly, at level 50, my VS does 200 more damage than my retaliation retaliation has its place, thats for sure, but only when you have more rage than you can spend, if you have low rage and you use it, you waste your rage on a lesser damage ability and have to build it up again as i said before, its not just about damage per second, its about damage per rage, and retaliation isnt that good in that area, so you only use it with plenty of rage to spare Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrazyAl Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 (edited) His/Her point is valid. Being lvl 18 makes no difference in the example as the same situation would have happened in a level 50. As Carnage if i had a full bar after the situation you described(Charge, BA stunned), I would Massacre, Gore, Scream, Massacre, leaving me with 4 rage left. Enough to pop a root or a slow to make sure my opponent cant move. I would not use that last 4(i got 1 from blood fenzy) rage on retaliate, or build up rage simply to use retaliate. It then just becomes another one of our on GCD moves. However using it while i intentionally need to build rage to setup another combo is different as being off the GCD is a greater benefit. i think you have that completely backwards with a full bar you can unload your big burst combo with rage to spare, add in retaliation and you get even more burst damage going out if, however, you use it while building rage then you need to spend GCDs building that rage back up in order to have enough to pop off your big burst combos, it wastes time on a low damage per rage ability plus, depending on where your BA cooldown is while youre trying to rage build you could end up getting a BA off when you have 6 rage already and then have a full bar to unload your big combo with a possibility to throw retal into your burst rotation Edited February 5, 2012 by CrazyAl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thundergulch Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 I use it all the time since it doesn't affect the GCD, but I'll take it off my hotbar for a couple of days and see how I like it. I never seem to have a problem building rage, but who knows, I might notice a huge difference by not using it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AcaciaDragon Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 i think you have that completely backwards with a full bar you can unload your big burst combo with rage to spare, add in retaliation and you get even more burst damage going out if, however, you use it while building rage then you need to spend GCDs building that rage back up in order to have enough to pop off your big burst combos, it wastes time on a low damage per rage ability plus, depending on where your BA cooldown is while youre trying to rage build you could end up getting a BA off when you have 6 rage already and then have a full bar to unload your big combo with a possibility to throw retal into your burst rotation it all hinges on getting hit though. It would be better if Retal did more damage and could be activated with a chance on one of our abilities. But 3 rage for doing less damage than a Massacre at 2 rage is still not worth it IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EasymodeX Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 I feel like I've posted about this topic at least 12 times before. I wonder if I posted in this thread as well, but I'm not going to check. In any case, this is the bottom line: 1. Retaliation is efficient for all specs, EXCEPT 31+ Carnage. Massacre is a better ragedump. 2. Retaliation is generally not effective when you get your 31 point abilities in any of the specs. It's a very minor DPS increase for Anni/Rage (and a loss for Carn) and requires additional attention / hotbar space. 3. Retaliation is always effective as a potential burst damage tool. 4. Retaliation is always effective and efficient sub-40. You should probably use it while leveling. The end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darne Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 I feel like I've posted about this topic at least 12 times before. I wonder if I posted in this thread as well, but I'm not going to check. In any case, this is the bottom line: 1. Retaliation is efficient for all specs, EXCEPT 31+ Carnage. Massacre is a better ragedump. 2. Retaliation is generally not effective when you get your 31 point abilities in any of the specs. It's a very minor DPS increase for Anni/Rage (and a loss for Carn) and requires additional attention / hotbar space. 3. Retaliation is always effective as a potential burst damage tool. 4. Retaliation is always effective and efficient sub-40. You should probably use it while leveling. The end. I never ran the number or anything, but I feel like I just intuitively did what you said. At lower levels I used it a lot while leveling .Somewhere along the way though, I started to bump it further and further down on my priority. Now it's to the point where I just about never use it. Like what others have said, I find the 3 rage cost for sub par damage to be a waste. It just doesn't flow into the rotation/priority I have going. Bottom line, in PvE I never use it. In PvP it gets used very rarely if I happen to have the rage and happen to have other, bigger hits, on CD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
threas Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 It's off the gcd, it adds burst and it lowers the cd on cloak of pain. I use it all the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beermongerr Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Makes Cloack of Pain permanent => obligatory in PvP at least. Rage is not such a big issue in Anni spec. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts