Endgame PvP as seen from a skilled Marauder

[Whamie]

So I see a lot of posts about how people hate Marauders or they are fine and leave them alone, but any decent Marauder that PvP's enough to know the regulars in matches can see glaring issues.

 

The answer isn't that everyone sucks if they are having an issue, but that might be the case for some My biggest gripe is CC, but it doesn't end at the constant barrage of knockbacks, roots, snares and stuns of which some classes have multiple AOE versions of.... Even without that I can kill indiscriminately though I choose healers first for obvious reasons. I've learned to cope and over come these obstacles even though the 50's bracket has made it clear that CC is definitely in abundance.

 

However Tanks in PvP ruin this game for me. between their protection (50% damage reduction) and constant taunts (30% damage reduction unless attacking the tank) along with any targets personal shields I have had my Annihilate (@ lvl 50 it should do 2190-2666 base damage) with around 600 expertise hit for a whooping 500 crit. As a purely melee dps class I am now no longer rendered ineffective, but rather completely useless.

 

Now since we have probably one of the most easily identifiable classes its easy to spot and ensure we are handled appropriately. In the mean time I have no way to avoid, counter or otherwise prevent one of the only things I can bring to the table from being controlled in this way. Normally I'd say switch targets, but usually enough tanks are in the match to ensure any healer and sometimes even all the dps have guard (not to include taunts, cc's and heals). So I highly doubt with the issues BW is facing they would even consider this, but to me I find it useless to have dps only classes in the game. It feels as though this class and a few others could be completely omitted from the game without any major consequences.

 

So in conclusion if you're looking for a high skill capped challenge that only appears sparsely in endgame with a richly rewarding experience my 8 ball says you should ask again later... Oh wait... Now it says No... that pretty much covers it. Marauders... No!

[berserknick]

I was pretty sure I have read posts about shields not blocking crits. Maybe they fixed that. Seems like a huge reduction did they have their cooldowns up?

[Tyrpak]

My biggest issue is:

 

If you have time to select the target and go for it, pick your fight, marauder is devastating.

 

If you are in the melee brawl (at doors, gun turrets, ball carrier), I have serious issues selecting targets.

The worst are the ones bunny hopping circle strafing you, that you can't mouse click on and constantly get the "not facing" red message until you die.

 

Tab targetting is aweful, dunno what's the logic in it, but when I face 4-6 people, and tab cycles only between 2 of them, than tab targetting is not helping.

 

I tried keymapping "target nearest", but found that one thing is working better, pressing esc to drop target, and hitting anything, because the auto select works.

 

 

On the positive side: with all the constant knockback, root, snare (who had the major idea to give knockback+root in 1 skill for ranged classes?), at least now you won't trigger GCD for pushing a skill that does nothing.

[Deviltreh]

My biggest issue is:

 

If you have time to select the target and go for it, pick your fight, marauder is devastating.

 

If you are in the melee brawl (at doors, gun turrets, ball carrier), I have serious issues selecting targets.

The worst are the ones bunny hopping circle strafing you, that you can't mouse click on and constantly get the "not facing" red message until you die.

 

Tab targetting is aweful, dunno what's the logic in it, but when I face 4-6 people, and tab cycles only between 2 of them, than tab targetting is not helping.

 

I tried keymapping "target nearest", but found that one thing is working better, pressing esc to drop target, and hitting anything, because the auto select works.

 

 

On the positive side: with all the constant knockback, root, snare (who had the major idea to give knockback+root in 1 skill for ranged classes?), at least now you won't trigger GCD for pushing a skill that does nothing.

 

Not facing? There's auto face in the game, you're doing something really wrong. :/

[Makhbet]

Not facing? There's auto face in the game, you're doing something really wrong. :/

 

It doesn't work on instant abilities genius.

[Sabbathius]

It doesn't work on instant abilities genius.

 

It does, but you have to let go of the controls and stop moving. Which isn't viable when playing a melee class as they will immediately get out of your 4m range.

[Sidiuz]

I agree that there are way too many stuns/knockbacks/pulls, but that's why you try to keep F-Charge off cd. I use it situationally (then again, I play Rage), so I normally don't have issues with knockbacks. The best thing you can do is just learn how you play the class. Everything in this game (especially Marauder) is directly relative to your skill. Learn how to use your defensive cooldowns, and you can survive a hell of a lot more. It took me quite sometime to get used to the class, and I still fumble every now and again.

 

We need tweaked, I'm not asking for a major "buff", but I'd like to see some of our skills get a little more utility. For example, why not have force scream interrupt?. Not saying that should be introduced, but some more utility behind some of our skills would make up for the "lack" of CC.

 

P.S. Intimidating Roar'ing half a team over a fire-pit in huttball makes me smile ^.^

[SeppoTheHated]

resolve needs changes. melee isn't deemed a threat... as kiting, peeling, or assisting don't appear to be necessary strategies in this game.

[EasymodeX]

Your observations are only true for low-end pug vs. pug.

[HBninjaX]

Your observations are only true for low-end pug vs. pug.

 

You're right his observations are true.

 

also, balancing a class around elite level organized PVP is a ridiculous notion to say the least.

 

in the end the customers are going to vote with their dollars as to whether the marauder is a 'finished' class or not

Edited February 3, 2012 by HBninjaX

[Hoseman]

Your observations are only true for low-end pug vs. pug.

 

False. Its present in all PVP environments.

[SeppoTheHated]

Your observations are only true for low-end pug vs. pug.

 

Nope.. the game mechanics just aren't built for coordinated group oriented pvp.. and that's fine for casual players. Marauder is an excellent class for 1 v 1... but the primary objective of what a marauder is supposed to do in group pvp is lessened by the current state of resolve.

 

Theoretically, competitive pvp strategy with group specific roles would state that a marauder would be to put pressure on the healers and casters while maintaining line of sight of their own healers / casters.

 

With current game mechanics including resolve, that can't happen. When every class has 2 forms of cc and defensive shields, people don't need to peel off others. That's fine for casual ranged gamers, but makes melee a frustrating and less rewarding experience.

[darkonnis]

Being honest, i find that my assassin gets much better results for a lot less work.

Don't get me wrong, against a shambles of a group, regardless of their gear i do rather well. I consistantly win just about any 1 on 1 i encounter. The excpetions are ofc getting knocked down off a ledge in huttball and subsequently geting kited for the next 12 seconds, and in the BH's case, only to charge and get knocked down again.

Against an organised group i am rendered completely ineffective, i just get CC'd then blitzed, i haven't got much in the way of aoe, and whilst my single target destruction is great, any team with a dedicated healer in range > whatever i can do.

I'd like to see some changes, not huge mega buffs, just something to make up for the constant snare/root/knockback and endless CC. We certainly don't need more damage, That isn't the issue. We just need something to keep us up close, or at the very least, stop us being endlessly kited.

For example,

a talent which reduces the CD on force charge whenever cc'd/snared by X seconds

Crippling slash lasting a bit longer, not so long that they cant get away because then that would be too much and we'd just get ***** by the nerf bat again.

Force scream being talentable to 15m, and or have a disorientating effect increase cast times for X seconds

Undying rage making you immune to cc/snare for its duration. The amount of times i've popped this only to be slowed/stunned while my target runs is stupid.

Quite simply lowering our total resolve to 800 from 1000, meaning that knockbacks/snares need a bit of thought instead ofthe constant spam, no one class that i can think of except mercs can fill a resolve meter through just their own abilities.

 

I will admit, alot of it comes down to clever play to do well, however, when you fight another class who is equally skilled, the mechanics seem to always work against us.

[Hoseman]

Being honest, i find that my assassin gets much better results for a lot less work.

Don't get me wrong, against a shambles of a group, regardless of their gear i do rather well. I consistantly win just about any 1 on 1 i encounter. The excpetions are ofc getting knocked down off a ledge in huttball and subsequently geting kited for the next 12 seconds, and in the BH's case, only to charge and get knocked down again.

Against an organised group i am rendered completely ineffective, i just get CC'd then blitzed, i haven't got much in the way of aoe, and whilst my single target destruction is great, any team with a dedicated healer in range > whatever i can do.

I'd like to see some changes, not huge mega buffs, just something to make up for the constant snare/root/knockback and endless CC. We certainly don't need more damage, That isn't the issue. We just need something to keep us up close, or at the very least, stop us being endlessly kited.

For example,

a talent which reduces the CD on force charge whenever cc'd/snared by X seconds

Crippling slash lasting a bit longer, not so long that they cant get away because then that would be too much and we'd just get ***** by the nerf bat again.

Force scream being talentable to 15m, and or have a disorientating effect increase cast times for X seconds

Undying rage making you immune to cc/snare for its duration. The amount of times i've popped this only to be slowed/stunned while my target runs is stupid.

Quite simply lowering our total resolve to 800 from 1000, meaning that knockbacks/snares need a bit of thought instead ofthe constant spam, no one class that i can think of except mercs can fill a resolve meter through just their own abilities.

 

I will admit, alot of it comes down to clever play to do well, however, when you fight another class who is equally skilled, the mechanics seem to always work against us.

 

/signed

[Whamie]

Your observations are only true for low-end pug vs. pug.

 

Actually quite the opposite. Its usually when a few battle masters run into another group of battle masters in premade that nobody dies. PUGS usually don't know eachother well enough to even stay within 15m's of eachother. Its usually well coordinated enough just heals alone would be enough to keep people up for the majority of the game. With all the mitigation and CC going around nearly nobody dies... except on the inside a little.

 

Heals have healed nearly 1.5 times more than any dps and whoever capped first usually keeps the point throughout the match, whoever controls middle in huttball or picked it up first usually might as well have capped already and voidstars are usually draws.

 

Not to mention if you PvP regularly enough to know any player worth mentioning and you are one of those that happens to be a Marauder... you always targeted in this manner. Matchs where people are not focusing on dps as much as they are on CC's. Which goes back to the issue of killing players via the environment using CC. Which we cannot do effectively when compared a lot of the other classes. Though I think Carnage is a perfect example of how CC should work in this game. Single Target control, but not complete control as most of it is roots and not stuns vs what BW actually did multiple AoE CC's with multiple effects of CC on some of the AoE's.

Edited February 3, 2012 by Whamie

[HBninjaX]

increase the healing debuff on deadly throw

[Tilure]

This is just another 2v1 , not fair I can't win argument.

 

A tank guarding another player means that player has to stay within 15 m of the tank, the tank then taunting you when you are attacking the guarded player means you are fighting 2 v 1.

 

A tank can't guard himself, and if he taunts you while you are attacking him, its a wasted gcd. So I cannot , in the slightest agree with this argument.

 

in the 2v2 scenario where its a tank+healer vs dps+dps if you put 1 dps on the healer (who can keep the healer mostly interrupted) and 1 on the tank, you will likely break the chain before the tank and healer can kill either of you.

[CrazyAl]

This is just another 2v1 , not fair I can't win argument.

 

A tank guarding another player means that player has to stay within 15 m of the tank, the tank then taunting you when you are attacking the guarded player means you are fighting 2 v 1.

 

A tank can't guard himself, and if he taunts you while you are attacking him, its a wasted gcd. So I cannot , in the slightest agree with this argument.

 

in the 2v2 scenario where its a tank+healer vs dps+dps if you put 1 dps on the healer (who can keep the healer mostly interrupted) and 1 on the tank, you will likely break the chain before the tank and healer can kill either of you.

 

add to that .... OP can "kill indiscriminately" except for tanks? sounds pretty fair to me, it would be garbage if we could indiscriminately kill everyone across the board with ease

 

1 class shouldnt be stronger than every other one

 

paper rock scissors, ya know

[EasymodeX]

Actually quite the opposite.

 

I was responding to the person above me who had stated something along the lines of "NO ONE NEEDS TO KITE/PEEL BECAUSE MELEE SUX".

 

I wasn't responding to your post since it was mostly skewed QQ.

 

Since we're on the subject: your overall post is /shrug fine, except for the part where you pretend Marauders get the shaft more than any other [DPS] class.

 

I'm not sure if you realize it or not, but any other class gets rickrolled by guard+crossheal way faster than a Marauder. Do you think a Sorc will ever be able to unload enough burst damage to make a guarded Commando/Merc healer blink? Nope. Will a Merc/Commando DPS ever be allowed to freecast? Nope. Do either of those classes have the ability to survive a burst target switch? Not really.

 

A Marauder on the other hand is in a much superior position -- a Marauder burns harder than a Sorc, cannot be interrupted, and has significant defensive cooldowns.

 

 

Conclusion: There's no reason to QQ about Marauders when the real issue is heal x guard x stacking damage reduction buffs. Specifically Commando/Mercs and their pve set bonus / talent (not sure which). Your complaint applies to all DPS classes, and I mentioned earlier, Marauders are actually better off than most.

 

Separately, the ****** resolve system also factors in, as you imply, which enables too much CC across the board (affecting melee more than anyone else, since it's the roots that grant nearly zero resolve and bypass resolve in many cases).

 

However, this is a CC-resolve x melee issue, not a "MARAUDER" issue.

[Tilure]

Nope.. the game mechanics just aren't built for coordinated group oriented pvp.. and that's fine for casual players. Marauder is an excellent class for 1 v 1... but the primary objective of what a marauder is supposed to do in group pvp is lessened by the current state of resolve.

 

Theoretically, competitive pvp strategy with group specific roles would state that a marauder would be to put pressure on the healers and casters while maintaining line of sight of their own healers / casters.

 

With current game mechanics including resolve, that can't happen. When every class has 2 forms of cc and defensive shields, people don't need to peel off others. That's fine for casual ranged gamers, but makes melee a frustrating and less rewarding experience.

 

 

This , imo , is terrible assessment of the current state of pvp. I'm not sure how you would even come to these conclusions.

 

When every class has 2 forms of cc and defensive shields, people don't need to peel off others.

 

You are suggesting that because every class has 2+ forms of cc that each player working as an individual produces the same result as players working in a coordinated team?

 

Theoretically, competitive pvp strategy with group specific roles would state that a marauder would be to put pressure on the healers and casters while maintaining line of sight of their own healers / casters.

 

There is no theoretically about it, it is true, a marauder can put pressure on healers and casters while maintaining los to their own healers. I'd say that the marauder(anni spec) is the best choice for healer pressuring. A guarded healer can mostly ignore 1 ranged dps, but the damage aspect of the pressure isn't what makes the marauder the best at it, its the intelligent use of CC+ interrupts, Which means that a coordinated effort is MORE important in order to ensure that you can keep the healer from healing without your team throwing cc on him while you are trying to keep him from healing.

[Garroda]

However, this is a CC-resolve x melee issue, not a "MARAUDER" issue.

 

 

 

Agreed. I suspect that at some point in the future we will see a PvP lvl spec ability system (similar to renown abilities in Warhammer if you are familar) So, you might see something like this:

 

Ability = Resolute Cloak

Cost 5 Valor points

"Cloak of pain will allow you to generate resolve 50% Faster"

 

They will have to give PvP folks another carrot at some point, they just want 6 months of PvP charting to create something ballanced.

[CaptainInsano]

Maras require a group to support them for maximum effectiveness. It's a rage resource based class that doesnt run out of steam the longer the fight drags on. In guarded healer+tank fights, they're the best dps you could want.