Who has tried both the vig/def hybrid tank build AND straight def tank build?

[Ulfr_Lynnedslag]

The sithwarrior analysis you linked was simple spreadsheet math that assumed no randomness. Randomness in favor of the Defensive build (ex: Courage procs always being at 3 stacks whenever Force Sweep is used) tended to be biased in favor of the build. Randomness in favor of the hybrid-vig build (ex: Blade Storm crits) were assumed zero, even if the build has a +60% increased chance of occurring.

 

Anyone who has played both specs knows both of those assumptions are strictly invalid. The focus usage of the def build is incredibly unpredictable/volatile based on those procs. Also, the vig build has a 75% crit rate with high end gear on blade storm, so that additional damage is not insignificant (especially with the 9s cd).

 

Shield & defensive chances were assumed straight multiplicative across the damage types. Again, not exactly true.

 

He also assumed a play-style for the hybrid build that isn't exactly realized in-game, just to put it at a further disadvantage.

 

Yet, his results still favored the vig build, at which point he dismissed them with some unsupported handwaving that assumes the build is critically dependent on playing leap-frog -- something that's also not true.

 

The reason the vig-hybrid build is viable is because tank damage isn't a huge concern in fp's, hm fp's, or normal/hm 8-man ops (I can't speak to 16m ops), and the damage (+threat) output is substantially greater. The threat generation of the defensive build is absolutely terrible and is dependent on taunt* being part of your rotation to maintain aggro. The vig build has significantly more dps, which directly equates to threat because we have no real "high threat" abilities (our only one is on a 1m cd, making it one of our worst tps abilities on anything that matters).

 

I've played both, and I'm currently running the vig hybrid build because it works better for my ops group. My survivability is not a concern -- threat and raid dps is. This is where the vig-hybrid build shines, and why I'm still using it.

 

The Guadian's threat problems stem from absolutely abysmal gear scaling (we only increase strength with better gear) coupled with no "high threat" abilities that are core to the rotation. Something on a 1m cd is not core to the rotation, and the extra abilities you can use after it aren't even useable on stronger mobs.

 

*Yes, taunt gives you threat based on who is on top of the aggro table. None if you are (the focus target isn't necessarily the top person on the aggro table), but it does give you at least the difference between the person on top and you. Just test it out.

 

ok let me point this out to you then, Crits can be done on both specs, hence why they were not included, the chance of a crit, even if it ends up being at a higher chance 40% and above, is still just that. you have a 50% chance on any Parry, deflect, shield or resist to gain a stack, Force sweep or blade storm being used with 3 stacks on cooldown would, will, is extremely common, almost completely outside the realm of possibility, since every attack made against you has a chance to be defended against, and, for the purposes of force sweep, you are likely fighting multiple enemies, which equates to more hits per second, thus more defences per second, meaning more courage stacks per second.

 

at the same time, you have to basically play leap frog in order to gain the 20% Damage Reductions from force Leap and the ally saver ability on the Jedi side.

 

dont get me wrong of coarse, I think the Defense tree needs a buff, but, at the same time, I do not think its as gimped as everyone wants to claim it to be and the fact still remains that the advantages of the "vengence / Vigilence" hybrid are selfishly minimal and, survivability issues or not, the loss of flexibility to gain that extra threat can be painful.

[RDeanOU]

ok let me point this out to you then, Crits can be done on both specs, hence why they were not included, the chance of a crit, even if it ends up being at a higher chance 40% and above, is still just that. you have a 50% chance on any Parry, deflect, shield or resist to gain a stack, Force sweep or blade storm being used with 3 stacks on cooldown would, will, is extremely common, almost completely outside the realm of possibility, since every attack made against you has a chance to be defended against, and, for the purposes of force sweep, you are likely fighting multiple enemies, which equates to more hits per second, thus more defences per second, meaning more courage stacks per second.

 

at the same time, you have to basically play leap frog in order to gain the 20% Damage Reductions from force Leap and the ally saver ability on the Jedi side.

 

dont get me wrong of coarse, I think the Defense tree needs a buff, but, at the same time, I do not think its as gimped as everyone wants to claim it to be and the fact still remains that the advantages of the "vengence / Vigilence" hybrid are selfishly minimal and, survivability issues or not, the loss of flexibility to gain that extra threat can be painful.

 

 

What is painful is how badly you and the post you linked overstate the loss of flexibility with the hybrid build. You don't *have* to leapfrog around constantly in the hybrid build. Just because you can do it doesn't mean that you have to. Even if I used my leap abilities sparingly in the hybrid build I am still gaining 4% damage reduction and 4% endurance and what have I given up mitigation-wise to get it?

 

You dismiss a 60% crit chance on blade storm because it is still "just a chance" and then go on and on about the 50% chance to gain a stack after a defense. Are you listening to yourself?

[Ulfr_Lynnedslag]

What is painful is how badly you and the post you linked overstate the loss of flexibility with the hybrid build. You don't *have* to leapfrog around constantly in the hybrid build. Just because you can do it doesn't mean that you have to. Even if I used my leap abilities sparingly in the hybrid build I am still gaining 4% damage reduction and 4% endurance and what have I given up mitigation-wise to get it?

 

You dismiss a 60% crit chance on blade storm because it is still "just a chance" and then go on and on about the 50% chance to gain a stack after a defense. Are you listening to yourself?

 

I dismiss the 60% because its 60% on a single attack that only happens once every how many seconds? 15?

 

how many times are you going to Defend against an attack within 15 seconds? out of those, even assuming only 1/3rd will proc the stack, the chances are still very good, and get better with every extra enemy you face, to gain the stacks, so the point is, your still more likely to see 3 stacks every time within a 15 second time frame, then you are of Critting once.

[lotj]

ok let me point this out to you then, Crits can be done on both specs, hence why they were not included, the chance of a crit, even if it ends up being at a higher chance 40% and above, is still just that. you have a 50% chance on any Parry, deflect, shield or resist to gain a stack, Force sweep or blade storm being used with 3 stacks on cooldown would, will, is extremely common, almost completely outside the realm of possibility, since every attack made against you has a chance to be defended against, and, for the purposes of force sweep, you are likely fighting multiple enemies, which equates to more hits per second, thus more defences per second, meaning more courage stacks per second.

 

In the same paragraph, you dismiss a 15% chance versus a 75% chance as insignificant because "crits can happen in both specs," yet claim three defensive procs (~30% chance for one) in less than a 12s window "is extremely common."

 

You realize how inconsistent that statement is, right?

 

fact still remains that the advantages of the "vengence / Vigilence" hybrid are selfishly minimal and, survivability issues or not, the loss of flexibility to gain that extra threat can be painful.

 

What facts? Have you even tried the build?

 

The only reason I stick with the vig-hybrid build is because every single person I group with insisted I do. That's how big of a difference it is between the two builds. How is that selfish?

[lotj]

I dismiss the 60% because its 60% on a single attack that only happens once every how many seconds? 15?

 

how many times are you going to Defend against an attack within 15 seconds? out of those, even assuming only 1/3rd will proc the stack, the chances are still very good, and get better with every extra enemy you face, to gain the stacks, so the point is, your still more likely to see 3 stacks every time within a 15 second time frame, then you are of Critting once.

 

Blade Storm has a 9s cd with the vig-hybrid spec. With a base 15% crit rate, you expect to get 3 Blade Storm crits in a 5-minute fight using the def build. The vig-hybrid build yields 25.

 

Also, you don't automatically get a 3-stack of Courage when you def proc once -- you get one Courage buff per def proc. You need 3 def procs in a <15s window in order to get a 3-stack of Courage, like the sw analysis assumes. Mobs seem to hit at a ~2s frequency, so the probability of seeing 3 stacks on one 15s window is ~44%. The probability of seeing 3 stacks in every 15 second time frame in a 5m fight is around 0.000007%.

 

You are not more likely to see one crit from Blade Storm using the vig-hybrid spec than seeing 3-stacks of Courage every time Force Sweep is up.

[clearsighted]

I dismiss the 60% because its 60% on a single attack that only happens once every how many seconds? 15?

 

how many times are you going to Defend against an attack within 15 seconds? out of those, even assuming only 1/3rd will proc the stack, the chances are still very good, and get better with every extra enemy you face, to gain the stacks, so the point is, your still more likely to see 3 stacks every time within a 15 second time frame, then you are of Critting once.

 

Reading your posts have convinced me that the hybrid vig spec is better, and the spreadsheet followers are deluding themselves.

[FalcoLombardi]

I've actually got a great triple hybrid, kind of anyways. Suppose you could call Defevigicus.

 

It's 34/5/2. In Defense, no Solidified Force, or Profound Resolution, 1 point in extra Focus chance from Sundering Stike, 2 points in Pacification I think it is, the one that increases Hilt Strike, Force Sweep, and Cyclone Slash. In Vigilance, 3 points in Swelling Winds, and 2 points in the extra Sunder Armor chance (this could be flipped around with the extra focus I suppose). And in Focus I lowered Stasis and Master strikes cool down because Stasis is a nice stun and you want it around quicker and Master Strike is a nice powerful attack when opportunity presents itself, but its more for Stasis

[clearsighted]

I've actually got a great triple hybrid, kind of anyways. Suppose you could call Defevigicus.

 

It's 34/5/2. In Defense, no Solidified Force, or Profound Resolution, 1 point in extra Focus chance from Sundering Stike, 2 points in Pacification I think it is, the one that increases Hilt Strike, Force Sweep, and Cyclone Slash. In Vigilance, 3 points in Swelling Winds, and 2 points in the extra Sunder Armor chance (this could be flipped around with the extra focus I suppose). And in Focus I lowered Stasis and Master strikes cool down because Stasis is a nice stun and you want it around quicker and Master Strike is a nice powerful attack when opportunity presents itself, but its more for Stasis

 

That's not a hybrid build.

 

It's only a hybrid if you don't take the 31-point talent in one of the trees.

[angrydurf]

Without Unremitting/Protector being in the mix the trade looks like this with regard to defenses.

 

Defense gets 4% Internal/Elemental resistance 4% shield chance, and blade barrier (roughly 1257.5 per 12 seconds)

 

Vigilance gets 4% all damage and 4% endurance.

 

So if your absorb rating gets you 50% absorb the shield is 4% mitigation. If Internal/Elemental Damage is half of your overall damage taken (many say that it is higher but as 2 of the 4 damage categories I feel half is fair) it's worth 2% overall mitigation. So those two talents equate to Commanding Awe in mitigation (because the devs think enure is that awesome? ... yea ...just yea)

 

That would mean that Blade barriers absorb would be compared against Protectors 4% endurance. 4% endurance is 4% of your endgame HP. the turning point is where 1257.5/12 seconds exceeds 4% of your HP. Say you manage 1300 Endurance at 50, Thats 520 HP from Protector. To put it another way you need 3143.75 Endurance to have that 4% be equal to 1 blade storm shield.

 

So no without Unremitting/Protector buffs you are not managing to be better on mitigation/defense as Full defense. That requires sufficient use of Unremitting and protector. Those two talents are what makes Tanking as vigilance work as well or better than Full defense spec on pure mitigation.

 

However the more you need to use those the more restricted your other output becomes. The spreadsheet over on Sithwarrior shows the extreme example of useing them basically on CD to maximize their benefit. In that case they end up being better than Defense on defense (once again way to go devs) the less uptime for that 20% mitigation the less true that become until a certain point where the bladestorm shield actually will be generating better overall mitigation. That point depends largely on the bosses hit timers, damage per hit, when they are used and of course specifics of the fight (is there a burst phase? how long is it? etc) Both also require adjusting position possibly missing GCDs or moving a Boss and for the same reason are harder to use well without impacting other duties.

 

Does this leave Hybrid as non-viable? Absolutely not. It is in fact situationally superior to Full defense. Full defense is likewise situationally superior to Hybrid. Defense is easier to play effectively. Most of your defenses are passive and emerge naturally from normal play. Defense also has superior AOE threat due to Pacification which stacks with swelling winds to make Force sweep decent AOE threat (not like Vanguard decent but that's a separate issue) Hybrid is more flexible you can choose ot play more defensively by using unremitting/Protector at the expense of threat GCDs and with skill scale all the way to the other spectrum of superior threat for lesser mitigation. It also has better burst threat to open a fight with if hilt strike is on CD (Totally possible with a 1 min CD) since guardian strike is worse than OH slash per use without a full stack of sunders.

 

The final thing I will mention is that if you look at the most recent patch notes it seems likely that soon OH slash will require Shien form and the Hybrid spec will just straight up not work.

 

Honestly I'd say pick what appeals. They both work fine (if not as well as Vanguards) and it's mostly down to which is more to your style. Some people like to constantly be changing up what buttons they hit. Others prefer a relatively stable rotation or priority list.

[Stncold]

 

The final thing I will mention is that if you look at the most recent patch notes it seems likely that soon OH slash will require Shien form and the Hybrid spec will just straight up not work.

 

Eh, that's debatable. I wouldn't be surprised if it happens, but I don't particularly think it will.

 

Shadow/Sin hybrid was just really strong. Guard/Jugg isn't that much. Guardian Slash and Plasma Brand are both good 31 point talents, enough to justify getting them.

 

Also it's been said several times in this thread from me and others with experience that you don't need to leapfrog in order to tank with hybrid. But go ahead, keep quoting spreadsheets and people who have probably never stepped foot in a HM or Nightmare.

Edited February 3, 2012 by Stncold

[Netherwolf]

I'm at 47 at the moment, and I'm using hybrid build for now.

 

I should say that for leveling it's the best, lot of resources and moderate damage.

 

On the other hand, I'm not so sure of the build for OPs and FPs (HM/Nightmare).

 

I guess from this interesting reading that your build depends on your fellow raiders (sorry for the WoW therm), but my experience on tanking says me that damage reduction / avoidance is important, but you can't forget the agro management. I want to try to balance both but, to be honest, I'm getting a bit confuse with your replies. :confused:

 

Can someone link the best builds in both sides (Hybrid vs Pure Defense) so I can take a side? :D:rolleyes:

[Ulfr_Lynnedslag]

Also it's been said several times in this thread from me and others with experience that you don't need to leapfrog in order to tank with hybrid. But go ahead, keep quoting spreadsheets and people who have probably never stepped foot in a HM or Nightmare.

 

I love how people come and claim experience, want recognition for the specs they choose over others and dont listen to anything anyone says at all.

 

Vigilence / Vengence spec is viable, but its not necessarily the 'hands down better choice' like you want to claim.

 

Do you 'NEED' to leapfrog to make the spec viable, no, do you 'NEED' to leapfrog in order to maintain the 'superior Damage Reduction' that it has? yes.

 

we need more threat generators, this is not in question. the question is which one is better, and while the hybrid works for you, the pure spec works for others.

 

Edit: and just to say it, in this discussion, though it does equate into the specs as a whole, having more health is only NECESSARY, note im saying necessary, not that its a bad thing to have, the worse your healers are. if you have an amazing healer you dont need that extra 4% health. And to be fair, the fact that this 4% bonus health is not in the Defense tree, leads me to believe that most of the testing, and work done by bioware for balancing the bosses, was done without this additional health, thus making it an unnecessary buff that should be deprioritized for the purposes of this discussion.

Edited February 3, 2012 by Ulfr_Lynnedslag

[Stncold]

I love how people come and claim experience, want recognition for the specs they choose over others and dont listen to anything anyone says at all.

 

Vigilence / Vengence spec is viable, but its not necessarily the 'hands down better choice' like you want to claim.

 

Do you 'NEED' to leapfrog to make the spec viable, no, do you 'NEED' to leapfrog in order to maintain the 'superior Damage Reduction' that it has? yes.

 

we need more threat generators, this is not in question. the question is which one is better, and while the hybrid works for you, the pure spec works for others.

 

Edit: and just to say it, in this discussion, though it does equate into the specs as a whole, having more health is only NECESSARY, note im saying necessary, not that its a bad thing to have, the worse your healers are. if you have an amazing healer you dont need that extra 4% health. And to be fair, the fact that this 4% bonus health is not in the Defense tree, leads me to believe that most of the testing, and work done by bioware for balancing the bosses, was done without this additional health, thus making it an unnecessary buff that should be deprioritized for the purposes of this discussion.

 

Where did I claim it was better? Stop putting words in my mouth.

 

All I said is that you don't need to leapfrog.

 

Trust me I would have made a video of me tanking HM/NIM without leapfrogging by now just to prove it if this game's terrible engine allowed me to do it.

 

Both specs are great, I don't necessarily believe one is far superior to the other, they each have their advantages, I just prefer the threat gen because after talking to both my DPS and healers after trying both, my healers say they have to put a little more work in, but it's countered by my DPS saying it's a good bit harder for them to pull stuff off of me.

Edited February 3, 2012 by Stncold

[FalcoLombardi]

That's not a hybrid build.

 

It's only a hybrid if you don't take the 31-point talent in one of the trees.

 

It is Hybrid because I'm not using one skill tree, I'm using traits from 2 others. Maybe not as hybridy as others but a hybrid none-the-less

[hassansabbah]

Good discussion about survivability of both builds.

 

Btw maybe it's just me. But i found myself in a focus-starvation for 14/27 very often. Very rarely i can use slash and sometimes i miss riposte because of lack of focus.

 

We havent got any dpsmeter. How we can automatically admit 14/27 build have a higher dps? Maybe we underestimate +focus from courage and cyclonic sweeps in defensive tree. With 34/7 i can spam slash much more. And its damage per focus is greater than bs crit damage per focus.

 

Im not really sure 14/27 has greater sustained dps than 34/7 in practice...

 

Have you got similar experience with two builds?

 

ps. Bad English, i know :/

[Asnine]

It is Hybrid because I'm not using one skill tree, I'm using traits from 2 others. Maybe not as hybridy as others but a hybrid none-the-less

 

So by your asinine definition of hybrid, technically every build in this game is a "hybrid"

 

 

 

lol

[HeroMystic]

Good discussion about survivability of both builds.

 

Btw maybe it's just me. But i found myself in a focus-starvation for 14/27 very often. Very rarely i can use slash and sometimes i miss riposte because of lack of focus.

 

We havent got any dpsmeter. How we can automatically admit 14/27 build have a higher dps? Maybe we underestimate +focus from courage and cyclonic sweeps in defensive tree. With 34/7 i can spam slash much more. And its damage per focus is greater than bs crit damage per focus.

 

Im not really sure 14/27 has greater sustained dps than 34/7 in practice...

 

Have you got similar experience with two builds?

 

ps. Bad English, i know :/

 

I have never been focus starved as 14/27. Never.

 

Well I'll take that back: If you miss your Force Sweep > Force Leap opener you'll be starved at the beginning of the fight and will have to immediately use Combat Focus + Sundering Strike to get my Focus up to sufficient levels for OH Slash > Riposte > Blade Storm, which is then followed up with another Sundering Strike, then to Force Sweep, then Riposte if it's up again.

 

Maybe I'm missing something but how is Slash even in the equation for this? In order for Slash to be good you have to dip into the Focus tree up to tier 2, and the damage from OH Slash > Riposte > Blade Storm is better than Guardian Slash > Riposte > Slash spam.

[Hydrolix]

in lvl 50 PVP I like the full tank build better. I've tried the dps/tank hybrid, and while it is entirely possible I wasn't playing it right, I always ended up with about half the damage as I would normally on the WZ scorecard at the end of a fight.

 

Might be a play style or a heavily gear based thing, but I didn't do well in the hybrid build. The full Vig build works well too, but you lose guard and as a guardian, your score is going to be heavily dependent on your ability to protect.

[angrydurf]

Eh, that's debatable. I wouldn't be surprised if it happens, but I don't particularly think it will.

 

Shadow/Sin hybrid was just really strong. Guard/Jugg isn't that much. Guardian Slash and Plasma Brand are both good 31 point talents, enough to justify getting them.

 

It is. There definitely seems to be an opinion on the Dev team that they want forms/stances/techniques to be tied strongly to certain skill trees. It's not guaranteed but wouldn't surprise me at all as they have already stated that they are looking at guardians tanking ability. Really depends if the Shadow changes were due to PvE philisophical ideas or PvP balance issues. The Hybrid isn't actually that spectacular in PvP from what I've heard (Never tried it in PvP personally) so it's probably not going to get nerfed for that.

 

Also it's been said several times in this thread from me and others with experience that you don't need to leapfrog in order to tank with hybrid. But go ahead, keep quoting spreadsheets and people who have probably never stepped foot in a HM or Nightmare.

 

To complete content you don't necessarily NEED to leapfrog around. But leap frogging is the ONLY way in which a 14/27 will beat a 31/10 on mitigation. The 4% health from Protector is less than half of 1 Blade Barrier shield, the Commanding Awe 4% DR is at best equivalent to Shield Specialization and Inner Peace combined (Granted for half the Skill point cost Defense does have some issues with the trees construction). Those are the mitigation talents in comparison with NO leapfrogging. Thus some degree of Leapfrogging is needed to make the Hybrid build perform better at mitigation than Defense.

 

The more you use the Protector and unremitting buffs the better your mitigation will be. However the more you use those the less GCDs you have for threat generation and useing them effectively is more complex than a defense spec. Flexibility begets complexity and as Protector and Unremitting are effectively activatable mitigation abilities on the GCD thier use reduces opportunity to use threat generation maneuvers.

 

Single Target the Hybrid has a not insignificant advantages on threat gen. Particularly early in a fight as OH slash is better per use than guardian strike before GS gets a full stack of sunders going on the other hand the CD on hilt strike isn't nearly as much of a factor as an opener giving the Defense tree a good option for early snap threat as well.

 

Defense spec will have 15% more damage on our aoe threat generators (Force Sweep and Cyclone slash) making AOE threat less of an issue for them (though still an issue as this is an overall weak point for Guardians).

 

The Focus generation on the Hybrid is also weaker, lack of cyclonic sweeps alone guarantees that not to mention courage and Stasis mastery. This doesn't however mean you're really focus starved as Hybrid just that you have less margin for error. Defense will be getting more focus without using GCDs but Hybrid will still get ENOUGH focus that so long as you don't miss a key generator or two you'll be fine. Both over the course of a long fight tend to end up with more focus than they have GCDs to spend it on. Defense does however get more so missing a generator or two is less likely to drop them below being able to pop Blade Storm or Guardian Slash on CD.

 

Really it's a matter of playstyle preference Both perform closely enough that given equal skill they will both do well enough to complete content effectively Hardmode or otherwise. At absolutely peak skill levels Hybrid will pull slightly ahead due to it's flexibility on threat and mitigation. However even in that case both will be performing well enough to down bosses. At a lower skill level Defense starts to work better as it has less room for user error. Once again however if you are good enough to clear content in one spec you are probably good enough to do so in the other, if you are not a spec change is really unlikely to fix your problem. So go with what appeals to you to play.

[Truck]

Defense does have some issues with the trees construction

 

This.

[RydelFox]

 

Defense gets 4% Internal/Elemental resistance 4% shield chance, and blade barrier (roughly 1257.5 per 12 seconds)

 

Vigilance gets 4% all damage and 4% endurance.

 

So if your absorb rating gets you 50% absorb the shield is 4% mitigation. If Internal/Elemental Damage is half of your overall damage taken (many say that it is higher but as 2 of the 4 damage categories I feel half is fair) it's worth 2% overall mitigation. So those two talents equate to Commanding Awe in mitigation (because the devs think enure is that awesome? ... yea ...just yea)

 

Addressing some math here:

With 50% absorption, 4% Shield = 2% mitigation, not 4% mitigation. Additionally, you can only shield against Kinetic and Energy damage. If that is half our incoming damage, as implied above, 2 points in this talent is worth 1% overall mitigation, not 4%

 

I'm not sure where you got the Blade Barrier was that much stronger than the damage reduction of Commanding Awe - Its protection seems negligible if you aren't stacking power, and there doesn't seem to be any power on a tier gear, which uses Accuracy for its threat stat.

[Drakks]

I'm not in favor of hybrids. lol I'm a pure tank myself, I've tried and trashed my hybrid schemes because I feel like they don't do any one thing well, they are mediocre at a plethora of things though, whereas a pure tank couldn't keep pace doing dps, a hybrid will have an easier time doing that at the cost of tanking ability

 

List out the total defensive losses a hybrid can miss out on -- and, to be clear, by hybrid let's say someone going at least 30 points in Vig, and running in Soresu.

 

Keep in mind, you can even shift a point and pick up to warding call.

 

Here is what you lose:

 

- Blade barricade (6% defenses on riposte)

- Blade barrier

- 4% shield

- 4% internal and elemental mitigation

- 15 seconds off AE taunt

 

And gaining:

 

- 3% accuracy

- 4% endurance

- Unremitting

- guardian leap effect applied to you

- 15 seconds off AE CC timer

- 4% all damage mitigation

 

The problem is the upper defense tree is really just garbage -- it's horribly designed to the point that mid level Vig actually is questionably comparitive almost across the board.

Edited February 3, 2012 by Drakks

[Smashbrother]

Assuming hybrid spec doesn't leap frog, survivability isn't really an issue with either spec and is pretty much a wash. However, the hybrid spec when not leapfrogging constantly has much better threat due to overhead slash >>>>>>> guardian slash, and the 60% extra crit on bladestorm and dispatch, and 9s bladestorm cd. Holding threat is the greater issue than survivability as your dps gets better geared.

[Meranos]

I read the first page and then skipped the stuff in the middle, so forgive me if I missed a gem of some sort, but I've tried both a pure tank spec and the hybrid tank spec in hard mode flashpoints and found that I prefer the hybrid spec.

 

I felt that with the hybrid spec, I was holding threat a lot better. My HP and mitigation jumped by a non-trivial amount, and I didn't find that I had any rage generation issues (my tank is a juggernaut *gasp*). With the pure tank spec, I'd lose aggro more often, and it felt like the hybrid spec allowed me to control the fight a lot better - which is ultimately what it's about.

 

The pure tank spec has it's highpoints though. Missing out on the stun and the channel-free stasis/choke took some time to get used to, but I feel like I've gained more than I've lost.

[SoldieroftheOne]

I did not read the entire thread nor did I want too. The discussion of def spec vs hybrid vig is really on what the player likes doing. If you like hoping all over the place for guardian leap proc too each its own, not my game play stay. But the reason for the post. Gear bonuses. You get a 20% increase to blade barrier every time you use it. Maybe been stated before but this makes hybrid spec nuked if you want to take advantage of the bonus.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

TL;DR Maybe been mention before, 20% increase in blade barrier mitigation with gear bonus which make hybrid nuked. Blade barrier FTW.