SalvorHardin Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 (edited) I think we all read Georg's post (if you haven't, please do) about what we can expect from crafting in general. I'm quite excited about all this. One thing I'm concerned about though is the "reverse engineering better chance" part. I don't think we actually need better chances. We just need some kind of system to optimize reverse engineering. Now there was also this other post by Georg and it got me thinking about what I would like to see those workbenches do... As I said, I don't think there is fundamentally anything wrong with RE'ing. It's supposed to be a time/money sink, it's supposed to be hard and tedious enough so that only commited crafters can actually benefit from it. Now if there is something that I hate about RE'ing, it's the "you already know that schematic". I mean, this is just a kick in the balls. So with all that in mind, this is the system I would love to see going live : Workbench Options Small increase in chances to learn a new random schematicChoice of what schematic you want to learn (but no chances increase) For example, if you input a base item, you can choose "Redoubt", "Critical" or "Overkill". If you input a Tier 1 item, you can choose Tier 2 prefixes ("Veracity", "Endowment", "Supremacy", "Rampart"... etc.) For linear evolution items, it would only give the chances increase. Don't get me wrong though, I am aware that being able to choose ahead of time what schematic you will find actually constitutes a big increase in chances... That is actually why I suggest the "increased random chances" option : balancing those 2 (and the possibility of RE'ing without a workbench) can very well results in originally intended RE'ing success rates. That brings me to my second idea : Reverse Engineering Gauge Some people asked for a cap to RE'ing attempts before learning the new schematic. I do not agree with that. But there is one solution that can, I believe, please most of the people : Every crafted item would have a RE gauge going from 1 to 1000 (or any other number really !) when put in the workbench. Each RE'ing attempt would get a score that fills up the gauge. When you reach 1000, you find the new schematic, no matter what. So you might RE 15 times in row for a 1 to 10 score and then get an awesome 1337 crit... Making it work basicaly the way it is working right now ! But with this system, we would know a little better where we're at while not necessarily changing RE'ing chances. This is how it would work : You put the item you want to RE in the workbench. You select "Redoubt" (for instance). A gauge appears and it says 0/1000. You RE the item and you see a system message "Reverse Engineer Score for Redoubt [item] : 12". You put a second identical item in the workbench, the gauge indicates 12/1000. You RE the item and you see a system message "Reverse Engineer Critical Score : 1034 - You have learned the new schematic Redoubt [item]". Now if you payed attention to what I said, you'll realize that I'm against the whole idea of RE caps and yet I'm suggesting one... Well that's only because I can only hope that nobody would be unlucky enough to go through a 1000 attempts without successfully finding the schematic they want. Which would be the (very unlikely) absolute worst case scenario in the system I'm describing. That being said, this system can be balanced so that already existing RE'ing success rates can still apply. All in all, this is just about giving more visibility and flexibility to the Reverse Engineer System. This leads me to my final wish : Reverse Engineer XP To be perfectly clear, I'm only suggesting that for a mere "cosmetic" or "psychological purpose". The way I see it, RE XP would not be a good thing if it was actually effective ! People would just grind it mindlessly before even attempting to RE "for real". I just want some sort of recognition for my Reverse Engineering commitment. Something that grows very very slowly and gives me a very very little bonus to find a new schematic. Also, it could increase quantities of materials you get back after each attempt. I don't want something that becomes mandatory to be efficient, but at least some sort of XP that makes you feel like you're getting better at RE'ing and that it's not pure luck only from level 1 to 400 ! So that's basicaly what I would love to see... And I wanted to know what you fellow crafters think about all this. Would you like it ? TL;DR ? Well too bad... Edited February 8, 2012 by SalvorHardin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iCanUseTheForce Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 I'd like to see a chance to increase Crew Skill level by RE level relevant item. Maybe a 1 in 25 chance. Might help to level crafting skills with fewer mats needed and without the time cost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaphael Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 Very good ideas! I hate the randomness of the current RE system and would love to have some visual gauge that tells me when I finally learn my new blue/purple schematic. However I don't think we should be able to choose which upgraded schematic we will receive. Simply taking that "already know this schematic" message away would already help a lot! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SalvorHardin Posted February 2, 2012 Author Share Posted February 2, 2012 Very good ideas! I hate the randomness of the current RE system and would love to have some visual gauge that tells me when I finally learn my new blue/purple schematic. However I don't think we should be able to choose which upgraded schematic we will receive. Simply taking that "already know this schematic" message away would already help a lot! But see, I don't think the ability to choose which schematic you want to find should increase the chances to learn it compared to the system we have now.... All the changes I'm talking about are almost "cosmetic only". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady_Alyria Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 (edited) I love it. I wish you had been on the dev team, I'd probably have been drooling all over this game with you making suggestions. Edited February 2, 2012 by Lady_Alyria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Velaxi Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 I approve of anything that minimizes or eliminates the RNG factor. (I.E. Curve approaching 1). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GnatB Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 IMO, before Bioware makes *any* changes to RE, they have to decide what they want crew skills to be. The post by Georg says they don't want a specific crew skill to be the ticket to end game play. That still leaves open the very real possibility that having A crew skill (maxed) will still be virtually required to compete. If that is true, then knowledge of "good" schematics will be the only thing that separate the professional from the person who just got the skill up in order to play end-game. If learning those schematics is trivialized, then you're in a totally fubar system where everybody is basically a crafter, and nobody needs to buy. So, *if* they decide to give all crew skills some sort of skiller only perk like Biochem has, then they should definitely NOT do anything to make REing new schematics easier, but rather should, if anything, do the exact opposite. make them harder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SalvorHardin Posted February 3, 2012 Author Share Posted February 3, 2012 So, *if* they decide to give all crew skills some sort of skiller only perk like Biochem has, then they should definitely NOT do anything to make REing new schematics easier, but rather should, if anything, do the exact opposite. make them harder. I'm not suggesting RE'ing should be easier.... Either my post wasn't clear enough or you didn't pay attention while reading. In any case, I'm only making suggestions to have more visibility over RE without changing current success rates of finding new schematics. I love it. I wish you had been on the dev team, I'd probably have been drooling all over this game with you making suggestions. I'm drooling at what the dev team already came up with actually But thank you ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SalvorHardin Posted February 8, 2012 Author Share Posted February 8, 2012 The reverse engineering return rate is not currently working as intended. In an upcoming patch, we are improving the reverse engineering rates – especially for the higher-level items. We are also looking into the issue where a player receives "You already know that schematic" instead of learning a new research variation. Patrick Malott Systems Designer Great news on the "You already know that schematic"... Very bad news on the "improving the reverse engineering rates" !!! This would be a slap in the face for us dedicated crafters. Please don't give into the whiners. SWTOR is all about hiding the grind EXCEPT for crafting, to make sure the best crafted stuff could only came from real crafters. This was an intentional design choice and a good one too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flegg Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Why RE for months when you can just raid? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dezeit Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 I like this concept because it has a cap. One suggestion would have is that a normal item increses the meter from 1-99 (a 100 is a crit for automatic schematic). RE'ing a mastercrafed item could potentially give you double or triple the value. If the cap was 1500 this means the average RE is 30 RE's You still have a 1% chance to crit on aeach go but is never more than 150 and you can see your progress. (Not knowing is one of the biggest fustrations). Now the challange is you ideally need a counter per item, which would be very resource intensive. You could have one counter for Green to Blue and one for Blue to Purple. If the meter resets after a succesful RE it would stop someone trying to pad the RE chance with low level items. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackardin Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 As I said, I don't think there is fundamentally anything wrong with RE'ing. It's supposed to be a time/money sink, it's supposed to be hard and tedious enough so that only commited crafters can actually benefit from it. Above and beyond anything stated, I want to know who made this declaration and who promulgated it into law? Crafting is a side bar item. It should be both fun and entertaining, not frustrating. It should produce results, not take longer to make then the level in which it is being crafted for. Challenge is determined through a set of circumstances that the participant can both control and overcome. A random number generator presents no challenge, no circumstances to be overcome. Its just there, hit or miss, like gambling. The "extreme challenge" assertion has failed in ever aspect of this genre that it has been attempted on. It will not succeed with crafting any more then it has any other aspect of the game as people are not in the game for the purposes of achieving some level of video game greatness above all others, but to simply achieve goals and have fun doing so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackardin Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 The simplest solution is to just implement an acceding percentage gain per attempt. Five percent chance on the first try, 10% on the second, 15% on the third. It does not have to be so complicated. Its just crafting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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