1.1.2 Marauder/Sentinel changes are dps LOSS not increase

[malkavianknight]

Any word on if they are fixing this?

[thierryfying]

Those numbers seems more like a lie:

 

Even going multiplicative I will justt give you 30% dmg bonus on your numbers

 

800*1,3=1040

1200*1,3=1560

 

and then again dots don't even have a range to begin with. They are fix damage.

 

Or dou you see your deadly saber stating something like A to B dmg, not it doesn't it says A dmg per stack over Y amount of time same goes with rupture.

 

you seem to be just the type to have to prove everyone wrong. just because i did not put any math in (purposely avoided it), did you feel you had to show off your math? how about you read carefully, and then make proper evaluations?

 

the point i was making is that it is clearly a dps reduction. but you obviously skipped that since branding me a liar made you feel better about yourself.

 

 

two things i believe u failed to read:

 

1. rough numbers

 

i'm not about to stare and memorise my exact bleed damage from 3x stack crit. i mostly pay attention to the first two numbers. i am giving an ESTIMATE.

 

 

2. depending on target

 

i'm sure your smart enough to realise that different targets have different internal damage resistances? not to mention in pvp, people have different levels of expertise, resulting in different amounts of damage resistance. HENCE i would be seeing different 3x stack crit values?

 

have you not played enough to realise this? how about next time someone is advocating the same thing you are, you dont go shoot them and brand them liars? (i'm assuming of course, that you're against the nerf since you are advertising a marauder guide).

[Renlotho]

Marauders/sentinels need nerf regarding survivability. When u get 2k hp u pop up CD and kill full HP players. So is this balance? We all know the answer. U need more nerfs!

 

If they kill you in 5 seconds that's a l2p issue on your end. What are you a sorc running around with no armor on and refuse to use your bubble out of principle? Yes you can kill a 40 to 60% health toon (assuming they are reasonably geared and not wearing greens) if you are very good and they very bad. 100%? You must be terribad.

Edited February 10, 2012 by Renlotho

[Masterdeathh]

Would really hope the 4 hours it seemingly will take them to fix the ilum bug which is just 1 bug they couldn't fix the warrior "buff"(nerf) or even reply about how the patch notes lied about it being a buff.

[Leobin]

Changes to Hemorrhage and Bleedout result in an overall increase in Damage Per Second.

 

Not intended to be a factual statement.

Edited February 9, 2012 by Leobin

[Vakyoom]

First off, theory and all the niceness was very good and well done, i like these kinds of discusions but i must point out that you're assuming that the old bleedout DID increase bleed damage by 30%... I tested this myself before the patch when i heard that it wasn't working properly and saw NO INCREASE AT ALL FROM ANY ANGLE before and after speccing into bleedout. It's old data and can't be looked at now but those faulty skills pts are worthless if they don't make them work as intended or at least how they're written.

 

Next, assuming that 25% crit chance is normal for marauders is not ok... You've mentioned that it doesn't matter until 100% but that's also thinking that bleedout worked improperly before, instead of just not working at all. Sooo now you can add 6% extra crit from the Malice skill in the rage tree, plus the 15% crit chance from juyo mastery making sure we'll have over 50% crit chance (you can even toss in 5% for IA buff since we're looking at where DPS really matters, places where you are with teammates in ops/wz). Now remember, every step closer to 100% crit closes the gap between YOUR old marauder info vs the new marauder data. Assuming your data is wrong however, it would look more like...

 

131 * 1.04 = 136 regular dot

 

131 * 1.04 * 1.7 = 232 crit damage from dots.

 

Your NEW data would stay the same however (except for the crit chance), being a clear dps increase... Which is what i'm seeing in game every time i murk somebody.

 

Don't forget to include that for every 7.5 attacks that spend rage, you get to use berserk... which gives 6 of your bleeds guaranteed crits for the duration. So fancy math goes in there to make a certain amount of crits come out of that 1000 (since they're not left to chance), so after considering that every 6 out of about 14 dots are guaranteed crits, that only leaves around 600 DoT ticks up to actual crit chance, and as i've said before your crit should be up well over 50% with juyo mastery and Malice. So 50% of the remaining 600 is a 2x modifier crit... Making final numbers a much larger dps increase than you've shown.

 

The new patch must mean something since without any new gear pieces i've seen a 30% total damage increase in just warzones (where i can actually keep track of damage to an extent). I'm now top damage every wz that's not overrun with sorcs/sages, and i'm not even battlemaster yet. Hit 360k in a voidstar that didn't even run the full duration by a few minutes, it was my first 300k medal as a marauder. Big news for marauders in champ gear.

 

 

TL: DR - one of these two things are true, but all marauders that should be worried about "top-end damage" should have more than 25% crit chance lol...

 

A) assuming that bleedout caused extra flat bleed damage (which i never experienced) before 1.1.2 instead of the crit dmg bonus, the new changes to marauders seem like a significant damage reduction.

 

B) since i have never seen or experienced the old "flat 30% bleed damage increase" skill pts, the new "30% bleed crit damage bonus" skill pts is a massive dps increase, especially considering the +9% they added to the bleed dmg in Hemorrhage.

 

My numbers are higher than ever and i've never hit harder, plus i'm still using a 128 rating mainhand from normal EV. It'll be even better after i get my champ Mainhand tomorrow from that juicy new bag system. Don't get downhearted friends.

Edited February 9, 2012 by Vakyoom

[Leobin]

A) assuming that bleedout caused extra flat bleed damage (which i never experienced) before 1.1.2 instead of the crit dmg bonus, the new changes to marauders seem like a significant damage reduction.

 

B) since i have never seen or experienced the old "flat 30% bleed damage increase" skill pts, the new "30% bleed crit damage bonus" skill pts is a massive dps increase, especially considering the +9% they added to the bleed dmg in Hemorrhage.

 

My experience with Bleed Out was that it was applying to the base dmg of the Rupture DoT and not Deadly Saber in any way. Anybody else find this to be the case? I also agree that Berserk/Zen should be included in OP. However if my own math is correct it will still turn out to be a nerf. (I don't like posting math. It normally gets trolled for being .002% off. On EJ that was a ban-able offence! =P)

Edited February 9, 2012 by Leobin

[DizzD]

BW Bizarro Vocabulary:

 

Fix  [fiks] Show IPA verb, fixed or fixt, fix·ing, noun

verb (used with object)

1. to NOT repair; to NOT mend.

2. to break something even further

 

Buff [buhf] Show IPA noun, buffed, buffing, noun

verb (used with object)

1. Nerf

2. to reduce the value of; to render less desirable

[thierryfying]

we probably have to spam this thread and get 1000 replies before we get any official response...

 

then again they didnt say anything regarding the operative changes. meh

[Dragendar]

First off, theory and all the niceness was very good and well done, i like these kinds of discusions but i must point out that you're assuming that the old bleedout DID increase bleed damage by 30%... I tested this myself before the patch when i heard that it wasn't working properly and saw NO INCREASE AT ALL FROM ANY ANGLE before and after speccing into bleedout. It's old data and can't be looked at now but those faulty skills pts are worthless if they don't make them work as intended or at least how they're written.

 

Next, assuming that 25% crit chance is normal for marauders is not ok... You've mentioned that it doesn't matter until 100% but that's also thinking that bleedout worked improperly before, instead of just not working at all. Sooo now you can add 6% extra crit from the Malice skill in the rage tree, plus the 15% crit chance from juyo mastery making sure we'll have over 50% crit chance (you can even toss in 5% for IA buff since we're looking at where DPS really matters, places where you are with teammates in ops/wz). Now remember, every step closer to 100% crit closes the gap between YOUR old marauder info vs the new marauder data. Assuming your data is wrong however, it would look more like...

 

131 * 1.04 = 136 regular dot

 

131 * 1.04 * 1.7 = 232 crit damage from dots.

 

Your NEW data would stay the same however (except for the crit chance), being a clear dps increase... Which is what i'm seeing in game every time i murk somebody.

 

Don't forget to include that for every 7.5 attacks that spend rage, you get to use berserk... which gives 6 of your bleeds guaranteed crits for the duration. So fancy math goes in there to make a certain amount of crits come out of that 1000 (since they're not left to chance), so after considering that every 6 out of about 14 dots are guaranteed crits, that only leaves around 600 DoT ticks up to actual crit chance, and as i've said before your crit should be up well over 50% with juyo mastery and Malice. So 50% of the remaining 600 is a 2x modifier crit... Making final numbers a much larger dps increase than you've shown.

 

The new patch must mean something since without any new gear pieces i've seen a 30% total damage increase in just warzones (where i can actually keep track of damage to an extent). I'm now top damage every wz that's not overrun with sorcs/sages, and i'm not even battlemaster yet. Hit 360k in a voidstar that didn't even run the full duration by a few minutes, it was my first 300k medal as a marauder. Big news for marauders in champ gear.

 

 

TL: DR - one of these two things are true, but all marauders that should be worried about "top-end damage" should have more than 25% crit chance lol...

 

A) assuming that bleedout caused extra flat bleed damage (which i never experienced) before 1.1.2 instead of the crit dmg bonus, the new changes to marauders seem like a significant damage reduction.

 

B) since i have never seen or experienced the old "flat 30% bleed damage increase" skill pts, the new "30% bleed crit damage bonus" skill pts is a massive dps increase, especially considering the +9% they added to the bleed dmg in Hemorrhage.

 

My numbers are higher than ever and i've never hit harder, plus i'm still using a 128 rating mainhand from normal EV. It'll be even better after i get my champ Mainhand tomorrow from that juicy new bag system. Don't get downhearted friends.

 

Am i the only one who saw this post? Because this post is contradicting everyone on this forum and no one has even said anything about it. People are still claiming the new patch was a dps loss. I also didnt experience this dot increase, and to me this is defenetly a buff since we did not have any 30 percent damage in crease to dots nor 30 percent crit damage increase.

 

Why keep saying spam this thread to get it fixed when no one can prove we had the 30 percent damage increase to dots.

 

SHOW ME THE LOGS to back your claims. I to saw my damage increase greatly in warzones after this patch.

Edited February 9, 2012 by Dragendar

[Masterdeathh]

Seeing several people talk about how their dmg actually went up and going with they're trying to white knight the so called "buff" to make it seem like it was actually fixed.

 

You don't need logs to see that crit dmg is atleast 100 less than what it used to be before the patch when the change was actually supposed to increase it, I actually felt nerfed yesterday while doing wzs as i saw my crits critting for less than i normally see them.

[Laati]

I really wish I did have a combat log and could have logged my findings prior to the patch with reference to the bleedout ability. I tested it out using rupture on a guildmate, spending quite a lot of time doing so. Testing and noting my damage prior to spending anything into bleedout, and after putting 1 point into it, then 2 points into it. I noted a definite increase in flat-line passive dps increase. Of course only thing to go on is my word on the matter (and that of the guildmate I was hitting). I did write down some of my findings on a scrap of paper at the time though. Using rupture on a guild mate:

 

No points into bleedout: 175,

1 points into bleedout (15% increase): 198

2 points into bleedout (30% increase): 220.

 

Now, you may be saying, hey! But they aren't the 15 and 30% increases, no. This is because you then need to further take resistances into account, of which I didn't seem to note down. Either way, it showed there was a definite increase, and if you were to look into the class boards, I'm sure people noted their findings into a lot more detail than I just did there. Just may have to do some digging to find the right threads as it was a while ago now that the issue was flagged!

 

End of the day, is it a dps decrease now that bleedout is fixed? Yes, all the math shows that it is indeed a dps decrease, as many of us thought it would be. Is annihilation spec ruined due to it? Of course not, annihilation is still a very strong spec to go down, and played correctly, you can still melt faces!

Edited February 9, 2012 by Laati

[Renlotho]

BW Bizarro Vocabulary:

 

Fix  [fiks] Show IPA verb, fixed or fixt, fix·ing, noun

verb (used with object)

1. to NOT repair; to NOT mend.

2. to break something even further

 

Buff [buhf] Show IPA noun, buffed, buffing, noun

verb (used with object)

1. Nerf

2. to reduce the value of; to render less desirable

 

Lol spot on. Btw I hit my all time high in damage post patch with a watchman. Now admittedly I've gotten MUCH better in the past two weeks. That said I don't think it was an overall nerf due to crit % and zen uptime.

[thierryfying]

Seeing several people talk about how their dmg actually went up and going with they're trying to white knight the so called "buff" to make it seem like it was actually fixed.

 

You don't need logs to see that crit dmg is atleast 100 less than what it used to be before the patch when the change was actually supposed to increase it, I actually felt nerfed yesterday while doing wzs as i saw my crits critting for less than i normally see them.

 

exactly my point!

 

i'm seeing my bleed crits AND non-crits do LESS damage than they used to pre patch. and after noticing my reduced bleed damage, i even remodded my bm gear with crit/surge instead of the stupid accuracy to see if i could try to live with it. damage was STILL lower.

 

people argue that oh, overall its still a dps increase coz you have to factor in berserk/zen uptime.. that while your noncrits might be lower, your crits and effective crit rate with juyo still compensates... etc etc

 

if noncrits and crits both hit lower than they used to, then no amount of berserk/zen/critrate factoring will show a dps increase.

[Masterdeathh]

Dear Bioware the post i am linking that you closed to to surge nerf discussion actually had very little to do with the actual nerf and more to do with the nerf to anni marauders that you stated was a buff.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=2711156#post2711156

 

Since it's pretty obvious you haven't read either this thread or that one i'm going to point it out in hopes it may actually get more than the automated response.

[cosmasterkiller]

Any Bioware devs or community manager up for addressing this?

[Tumri]

Sigh.. I doubt they'll ever address it.

 

On the bright side with the surge nerf the 1.1.2 change might actually end up being the buff they promised since lower surge ratings make increase the value one sees in +30% bonus crit damage vs. the old system. Unfortunately since Annihilation has a large portion of it's damage crit 50% of the time it'll be a large nerf overall.