What does the 1-49 bracket teach us about PVP gear?

[Jagerinho]

OP, you say you want to be able to obtain gear through PvP, but for gear not to matter in PvP.

 

explain?

[Cherepk]

MMO = gear based, concept of rewarding a player is something that keeps players in the game.

For comparison wow isn't different newly leveled toon will be demolished every-game in BG (not even going in arena) until u get somewhat proper stats. Tho even then u will be behind many since only weeks of playing (accumulating arena points is where the gear is).

 

Lets see how most successful MMO started in their quest to built PVP system:

When BG's came out in WOW they had many issues. Bg's had same imbalances horde vs alliance. Where alliance loose most of the time. Getting ranks 9-12 gear was only possible if you have premade group. Premades became rampant since the only way you could win especially on ally side is having a premade. Often you would play 5 vs 10. No one punished afkers. On many servers BG ques were hours long due to imbalance of sides. Gear was deciding factor in many cases if you're going to loose or win 1v1. Like fully geared tier 3 mage can just two shot you if you were warrior.

 

So comparing to wow swotr isn't doing that bad. They never said this is going to be PVP game purely like warhammer, so compared to beginning of wow pvp swotr isn't doing that bad.

[Sconnoll]

That last paragraph is completely insane. Talent points are so much more effective than expertise in PVP it's not even funny. Talent points are the *only* thing making your character effective in PVP.

 

The gap between a 10 and a 49 in talent points is infinitely more powerful than just a 10% change in damage, damage taken, and healing.

 

It just sounds like you like to quit to me. I started fresh at 50 the same way everyone else did.

 

I went in in greens and killed the battlemasters/champ geared people that were bad. Lost to the ones that were actually good.

 

In a couple days I had enough expertise there was ZERO barrier to PVPing even against the people who had been geared for much longer than me.

 

The people saying it's impossible to beat a Battlemaster are flat out lying. Expertise isn't the reason you're losing.

 

Coordinated teams, in all good gear, versus PUG's, that's the reason you're losing. You don't like it? Start a team. You can all be in Champ gear the first week the way BW set this up.

 

It's sickening how many people want to do nothing to earn their items. End game equipment used to mean something before WoW. Like other people in this thread said, this is part of an RPG - you WORK toward something, then ACHIEVE IT. You don't get a happy meal toy after every match.

 

^^Well said my friend!!!

 

to OP, we all had 0 exp at 50, we start at the bottom and climb our way up. Suck it up and quit whining, or play a fps.

[Killer_Wonka]

The carrot on a stick concept actually makes more work for an MMO develper. It was a very bad idea in the first place.

 

People PVPed for hours and hours in SWG and there was no gear given out because you PVPed. You did it because it was fun. Eventually they put in a PVP raiting, but honestly the reward should be the victory you earned.

 

Now, one thing I think we need is more RVR style objectives in the game worlds so that PVP can actually affect the world you are in. The best PVP I did in SWG was base busting, that is being able to destroy buildings that were usually in the cities of the opposing faction. This had affects on the planets in question, it would determine which faction's NPCs would spawn on that planet, etc. Now I know we can't do that necessarily but PVP where when you "win" you actually feel like you are winning a battle in a war rather then just another meaningless repetitive WZ, is far more rewarding.

 

People who addicted to gear based PVP just want to look at a scoreboard with their character's name on it so for a while they can delude themselves into believing that they are better then the people they rated against.

 

Nope. I don't want gear to matter.

 

Player vs Player.

 

Not gear vs. gear.

 

Come on, if you are a PVPer you don't need the crutch. Don't hide behind your gear.

 

 

Absolutely I was in SWG I really did not care about gear I loved playing in groups vs groups not gear. Gear is not what wins a war its the abilities and classes that wins it and how you play.

 

The gear and pvp needs a serious look at. THIS IS NOT WOW. WARLOCK overload.

 

Come on fix pvp before the hord leaves this game.

[DvDeFrancesco]

ya most of the people in those brackets are still trying to level to 50 though too. And the others that reroll to play in a lowbie bracket aren't good pvpers and are too lazy to grind gear.

 

This is a mmo. You have to reward players for investing their time and energy building a character up. Why should you just be able to ding 50 and come in a WZ and dome me when I've put all this effort into the game that you haven't? Why don't you go play an FPS if that's the kind of equal playing field you want. I want my time and energy to mean something. If you weren't such a brat then you could suck it up and grind the gear out like everyone else in EVERY OTHER MMO

 

 

Give them stuff that looks cool then, not stuff that gives them an unfair advantage over their oppenent.

 

For example take 2 players. One has 2 kids a wife and a job, the other has 1 wife and a job but no kids. The one with no kids has a decent amount more time to spend with the game, especially if his wife plays as well, to gring and all that. Now lets say the one with 2 kids is just as good as the 2nd but he doesn't have the time to grind for the top gear. Is that fair? He pays the same amount of money to enjoy the exact same game, when your talking about something competitive it has to be fair and balanced across the board whether its casuals or hardcore.

 

This would be by changing up the gear system for PvP. Instead of having multiple tiers of armor that only make you stonger. Have 2, 1 for reg pvp and 1 for rated. Only the rated gets the better gear, but everyone can obviously get it if they want to. Then if they really want to offer the people who spend hours and hours grinding something good, give them armor skins, really bad A armor skins. Something they can keep and wear for bragging rights.

[iceperson]

^^Well said my friend!!!

 

to OP, we all had 0 exp at 50, we start at the bottom and climb our way up. Suck it up and quit whining, or play a fps.

 

i went from valor rank 1 to rank 50 without having to compete against a single BM...

Edited February 21, 2012 by iceperson

[L-RANDLE]

lol. i remember consistently getting top dmg and 9-11 medals on my jug throughout the 20s without breaking a sweat. i suggest you spend some time in 10-49 warzones and stop talking out of your @#$%

 

So you go from "not breaking a sweat" to getting facerolled? Umm. Maybe its showing that the bolster was helping to cover up your inadqencies (skill or gear; whichever)? So saying your skills have not changed, lack of gear is making you work for your medals?

 

I played 10-49 warzones and bought lvl 40 pvp gear....like a dumb-azz, before realizing I needed the comms to buy CBs, so I think that qualifies. When I hit 50, I only had one bag, so I could only get a cent belt. When I went into my first game of pvp, I got rolled, BUT i still got 4medals. You can still be effective, even with supar gear.

 

Trust me, the post you were replying to has some credibility, as I agree that you can win (in certain matchups) with crafted/orange/few champ/cent pieces vs champs/BM. The funny part is none of this stuff is 'hard" to get. People constantly QQ about this. If you LOVE PvP so much, then maybe you should get the gear to show these leet skills. Too many entitled brats in this thread, not willing to put in a little minimal effort to get on par with the course.. Makes me sick...

[Nhaok]

Having gear matter in pvp is honestly the dumbest thing about MMO pvp.

 

When you can win a fight before a shot is launched just because you outgear somone does not make a good game.

 

The problem is, how do you get people to pvp if gear doesn't matter and they don't have that carrot on a stick?

 

Leveling up and gearing up is what MMORPGs are about. If you want PvP where all is pretty much equal from the opening gates you should play SC2 or League of Legends.

 

Why would some guy that just hit lvl 50 and is in outdated oranges and greens be on the same rank as some guy who is a battlemaster.

 

It is like you challenging someone with a Nascar to race your Hyundai Elantra and then complaining and saying their car was better.

Edited February 21, 2012 by Nhaok

[AstralProjection]

lol. i remember consistently getting top dmg and 9-11 medals on my jug throughout the 20s without breaking a sweat. i suggest you spend some time in 10-49 warzones and stop talking out of your @#$%

 

I've spent plenty of time in them, I have 6 alts.

 

I suggest you spend some time in the 50 warzones without quitting because someone was better than you.

 

Battlemaster gear is a joke. It's the same thing as champion gear with +single digit increases to a few stats.

 

It's not an automatic win versus another 50. If you have talent, you can kill people regardless of gear.

[iceperson]

So you go from "not breaking a sweat" to getting facerolled? Umm. Maybe its showing that the bolster was helping to cover up your inadqencies (skill or gear; whichever)? So saying your skills have not changed, lack of gear is making you work for your medals?

 

I played 10-49 warzones and bought lvl 40 pvp gear....like a dumb-azz, before realizing I needed the comms to buy CBs, so I think that qualifies. When I hit 50, I only had one bag, so I could only get a cent belt. When I went into my first game of pvp, I got rolled, BUT i still got 4medals. You can still be effective, even with supar gear.

 

Trust me, the post you were replying to has some credibility, as I agree that you can win (in certain matchups) with crafted/orange/few champ/cent pieces vs champs/BM. The funny part is none of this stuff is 'hard" to get. People constantly QQ about this. If you LOVE PvP so much, then maybe you should get the gear to show these leet skills. Too many entitled brats in this thread, not willing to put in a little minimal effort to get on par with the course.. Makes me sick...

 

when did I ever say I got facerolled? the point is, 10-49 is much more skill based than the 50 bracket where BM premades destroy new 50s in quest greens and a few blues and oranges for good measure. my jugg still rocks in pvp (now in mostly champ gear), but the performance difference between when i just hit 50 and when I reached 500 exp had zero to do with skill and everything to do with getting the requisite amount of exp...

[iceperson]

It's not an automatic win versus another 50. If you have talent, you can kill people regardless of gear.

 

if you have full BM (or even champ or cent) and you get beat by a new 50 in greens/blues/oranges then i suggest you try playing with both hands. if you were using both hands then you may well be the worst player of any game of all time...

[Agonisis]

I agree with the OP, 1-49 is fun cuz your for the most part equal, yes the 49 has an advantage over the 10 due to more skills, and better gear, but a 10 can still kill a 49 based on skill. I got into the pvp game late so took my full Columni geared sage into a 50 bracket pvp and got stomped worse than i ever had with my lower lvl alts.

 

the Fix is simple remove expertise. PVP gear and raid gear is for the most part equal minus expertise. This way its equal ground between the die hard PVPer and the Raider, no distict advantage other than skill, and gives new 50's a fighting chance.

 

Also they could award Gear to the winners of a WZ instead of this token/bag crap, imagine if you had to win to gear?

 

And for who ever said would you pay a new guy the same as a 20 year vet...look at our military. A 23 year old kid out of college becomes an officer and is then in charge of and paid more than a 10 year enlisted vet Starting. So your arguement fails.

[sheisty]

Simple fix really. Make everyone at Lv50 bolstered to lv 60 and get rid of expertise on gear.

 

So then your gear still matters, but not to the point of breaking PvP as a whole. And then the fresh 50s still have a fighting chance to do something other than fold if anyone even looks at him.

[AstralProjection]

Give them stuff that looks cool then, not stuff that gives them an unfair advantage over their oppenent.

 

For example take 2 players. One has 2 kids a wife and a job, the other has 1 wife and a job but no kids. The one with no kids has a decent amount more time to spend with the game, especially if his wife plays as well, to gring and all that. Now lets say the one with 2 kids is just as good as the 2nd but he doesn't have the time to grind for the top gear. Is that fair? He pays the same amount of money to enjoy the exact same game, when your talking about something competitive it has to be fair and balanced across the board whether its casuals or hardcore.

 

This would be by changing up the gear system for PvP. Instead of having multiple tiers of armor that only make you stonger. Have 2, 1 for reg pvp and 1 for rated. Only the rated gets the better gear, but everyone can obviously get it if they want to. Then if they really want to offer the people who spend hours and hours grinding something good, give them armor skins, really bad A armor skins. Something they can keep and wear for bragging rights.

 

The guy you're describing is me.

 

I have two kids, a wife, and a job I work at least 40 hours at every week.

 

The rest of my guild beat me to 50 by a couple weeks, as did a lot of my server.

 

When I got there, I still got plenty of wins, regardless of the fact that most of the people I was fighting had battlemaster or champion gear, and I was wearing greens and the level 40 PVP set with a handful of upgraded mods.

 

In 2 weeks, I had the same gear the rest of my guild did, and I pugged half my matches anyway due to my erratic playtime, and NEVER lost a fight that wasn't due to my opponent just being better than me, or playing against a team that was working more cohesively.

 

If you know what you're doing, you can win.

[GrinNfool]

People are leaving the 50's bracket and re-rolling characters so that they can continue to PVP in the 1-49 Brackets.

 

Lets really think about what that means.

 

It means that people would rather do the PVE grind AGAIN then put up with being the equivalent of being grey mobs in WZs who's purpose seems to be to entertain no one but the people who are lucky enough to have more free time or unlucky enough to simply have no life who get to kill you over and over again.

 

It means that PVP is MORE exciting when your adrenaline is pumping because you are in a pitched battle with someone who does the same damage and takes the same damage you do and it really comes down to quick thinking, reflexes and strategy that you EARNED through practice rather then because you have a statistical advantage over your opponent. Where the timing of every shot counts. And obviously that is going to be more exciting then losing simply because your opponent hits far harder and takes far less damage.

 

Gear based "PVP" is not a test of a player vs a player unless people really think that because someone was able to do more repetitive tasks over and over again because they don't have kids, or a job or a life (Or simply are willing to sacrifice those things they should be spending more time on) is somehow something that people can be tested for and be lauded as if they "accomplished" something.

 

The grind olympics? Is that something you want to be remembered for? You were better at wasting more time in your life then someone else so you "win"?

 

If we are going to have brackets, I think we should have a bracket where Expertise is shut off. ESPECIALLY if you are thinking E-sport. And ESPECIALLY if you are going to have a PVP rating system.

 

I have a feeling that bracket would be far more populated.

 

EDIT TO CLEAR UP A MISCONCEPTION: I do not feel that gear should no longer be acquirable through PVP. I feel that gear should be attainable through PVP, and be on par with gear in PVE. And that the advantage gear affords be curbed in PVP across the board. I am not asking for PVE to cause someone to win PVP. Resilience was the wrong answer. Expertise is no better.

 

Actually all it tells us is people don't like the gear differentials and want everyone to have equal stats when PvPing because thats what sub 50 pvp is, no gear scaling of ANY kind. Even if you had PvE gear only you would still have the exact same issue, raiders would be the ones to dominate. Your logic is poor, its not that there is PvP gear or a PvP stat its that there is a difference in stats because of ANY gear. Sub 50 peoples stats are pretty much universal the biggest difference ive seen is around 1.5k health, which is negligible. The only difference generally between a 34 and a 14 is the mastery points and ability unlocks. In some respects it can be more unbalanced than the post 50 brackets as some classes have deal breaker abilities that if they dont have them they can't compete, others have abilities they get around 40 that make them amazing compared to a 20. Skill won't make up for the fact that the guy you are fighting have 2 "invulns" and a nuke, and you don't, unless the guy is awful.

Edited February 21, 2012 by GrinNfool

[AstralProjection]

if you have full BM (or even champ or cent) and you get beat by a new 50 in greens/blues/oranges then i suggest you try playing with both hands. if you were using both hands then you may well be the worst player of any game of all time...

 

Nice try, but I never said I was that person. What I said was that I played against lots of people whose "Battlemaster" was just that - a title, not an automatic win like you're asserting.

 

The current system is so easy to gear up and rank up in Valor that the title is meaningless, and as I said before, the gear itself is barely better, sometimes not better, than the Champion equivalent.

 

Main reason why? Valor is gained primarily in Ilum. Ilum requires zero PVP skill to get gear the way it's being fought 90% of the time. Especially if you're on the high pop faction.

 

If you get to rank doing nothing but warzones, you'll be a lot better off. Another reason you have more success in the lower bracket is people are more laid back and play lazier on their alts in a lot of cases, and take their main characters seriously. It's a matter of pride.

 

TL;DR - I didn't die in BM gear. But I killed plenty of people wearing it. You can too. With effort! It's the only silver bullet out there.

[L-RANDLE]

when did I ever say I got facerolled? the point is, 10-49 is much more skill based than the 50 bracket where BM premades destroy new 50s in quest greens and a few blues and oranges for good measure. my jugg still rocks in pvp (now in mostly champ gear), but the performance difference between when i just hit 50 and when I reached 500 exp had zero to do with skill and everything to do with getting the requisite amount of exp...

 

You implied that you did...and now you imply that the difference was "too great" (ie its was harder than 10-49).

 

The hypocrisy is still running wild in here.

 

Misconception: 10-49 is much more about skill- How in the hell does a 10 hold a candle to a lvl 49? Bolster, so all skills/armor/def are in the same neighborhood.

 

Now, I (when I was lvl 30+)got 2sec CD on something, when a lvl 10 has a 4sec CD. I have more stuff available that are on different CDs. Advantage? Now throw in some macros and 8 button mouses, voice chat with 49 premades.... Lvl 10s are Bantha Poo-Doo.. That bracket is no more about skill than the 50 bracket. People need to stop fooling themselves into thinking there is skill involved in pressing a button. There is a big gap between lvl 10 and lvl 49 in my book. Maybe now, the level 10 players should be in an uproar....that 49s have too much available on their skill tree...

 

 

Please stop the madness, quit the QQ, do some dailies/weeklies, PvP while doing those dailies/weeklies, be HAPPY. Even playing a few hours a day you can get champ/cent lvl gear in 5 days..

 

 

PS: I don't even waste my time with Cent gear. The oranges modded with 51 epics far outshine those pieces. I give them to my compainion to make my dailies pass very quickly....

Edited February 21, 2012 by L-RANDLE

[Aepervius]

That last paragraph is completely insane. Talent points are so much more effective than expertise in PVP it's not even funny. Talent points are the *only* thing making your character effective in PVP.

 

The gap between a 10 and a 49 in talent points is infinitely more powerful than just a 10% change in damage, damage taken, and healing.

 

It just sounds like you like to quit to me. I started fresh at 50 the same way everyone else did.

 

I went in in greens and killed the battlemasters/champ geared people that were bad. Lost to the ones that were actually good.

 

In a couple days I had enough expertise there was ZERO barrier to PVPing even against the people who had been geared for much longer than me.

 

The people saying it's impossible to beat a Battlemaster are flat out lying. Expertise isn't the reason you're losing.

 

Coordinated teams, in all good gear, versus PUG's, that's the reason you're losing. You don't like it? Start a team. You can all be in Champ gear the first week the way BW set this up.

 

It's sickening how many people want to do nothing to earn their items. End game equipment used to mean something before WoW. Like other people in this thread said, this is part of an RPG - you WORK toward something, then ACHIEVE IT. You don't get a happy meal toy after every match.

 

if that were true, as a lowbie I would still have been owned (litteraly) by every 40+ after the bracket introduction, as I had been before the bracket. It was not the case. There was a huge difference before and after the bracket introduction.

[Metric_Tensor]

I just don't see what the confusion is about. Gear grinding is the only reason people continue to play for months and months. Who's gonna pay for a year if everyone is at level playing field once they reach 50? It's a simple time - reward system. They want you to continue paying, you want something back for your time. I reached 50 in 2 weeks, not saying that people can't do better, but i'll be damned if I couldn't take my character beyond that. I'm in for the long haul. My character after 2 months better be much much better than it was after 2 weeks. Isn't this the way all rpgs play out?

[_Marou_]

I just don't see what the confusion is about. Gear grinding is the only reason people continue to play for months and months. Who's gonna pay for a year if everyone is at level playing field once they reach 50? It's a simple time - reward system. They want you to continue paying, you want something back for your time. I reached 50 in 2 weeks, not saying that people can't do better, but i'll be damned if I couldn't take my character beyond that. I'm in for the long haul. My character after 2 months better be much much better than it was after 2 weeks. Isn't this the way all rpgs play out?

 

Heh, lots of DAoC players would disagree with you completely. When we hit cap we got a set of crafted gear tailored to our exact template, and that was it. Then we PvP'd for years and years.

 

You're talking about the WoW model. It's not the best model for PvP. I got sick of it rather quick, tried again when they introduced arenas, geared my mage and priest in full S1, and promply quit the game because I was /facerolling people and it took all of the excitement out of winning.

[L-RANDLE]

if that were true, as a lowbie I would still have been owned (litteraly) by every 40+ after the bracket introduction, as I had been before the bracket. It was not the case. There was a huge difference before and after the bracket introduction.

 

Maybe people on your server were having an off night? /sarcasm.

 

It depends. You can't deny that they have more skill tree things available, which will always give an advantage if used corrctly.

 

 

Maybe they were not good players, or maybe the lvl 50 players on your servers are WAY better than you are and were not in the 10-49 bracket when you were at 10? These are questions that most of the whiners are not willing to ask themselves. Not only that, they think there is something wrong with having to get the gear because their perceived skill is lackluster because of GEAR AND GEAR ALONE and should not have to "grind" to get it.

 

 

On another note...

LOOK PEOPLE, A GRIND IS 30+ HOURS OF GAMEPLAY TO OBTAIN LIKE ONE ITEM (AND A FEW TERTIARY ONES). Don't anyone out there front like this is a real grind, cause it ain't. Seriously, maybe 15 hours tops, 2hrs/day for 7 days, all the while playing PvP to earn valor.... Does that make your head hurt so much that it makes you QQ?

Edited February 21, 2012 by L-RANDLE

[AstralProjection]

if that were true, as a lowbie I would still have been owned (litteraly) by every 40+ after the bracket introduction, as I had been before the bracket. It was not the case. There was a huge difference before and after the bracket introduction.

 

It wasn't true because you started playing better players who actually cared about winning or losing on top of the difference in characters.

 

What makes 50 bracket pvp less fun for people is that it's competitive. I'm a laid back guy too. FWIW, I actually enjoy 10-49 PVP more myself. It has nothing to do with expertise though. It has to do with people's attitudes toward winning and losing, and the fact that most people are too snobby to admit that sometimes when they lose it's because the other person is better than them.

 

I'm not ashamed to admit it. There are plenty of players on my server better than me. Some are a LOT better than me. That doesn't mean expertise stopped me from gearing up, which is the assertion being made here.

 

It's very, very easy to gear up your first week at 50. If you're having that hard a time, practice, and start using all your class' abilities, and start playing with a team. Unlike other games out there, you actually need all the skills your character is given. 2 or 3 hotkeyed bars should suffice.

[iceperson]

TL;DR - I didn't die in BM gear. But I killed plenty of people wearing it. You can too. With effort! It's the only silver bullet out there.

 

killing someone who's in BM while in greens and blues says a lot about the person you killed, but doesn't say anything about you. yes, you can kill a BM who's afk or who is choking on a hot pocket, but the amount of bad that has to be on their part for you to succeed is staggering.

[AstralProjection]

killing someone who's in BM while in greens and blues says a lot about the person you killed, but doesn't say anything about you. yes, you can kill a BM who's afk or who is choking on a hot pocket, but the amount of bad that has to be on their part for you to succeed is staggering.

 

And *my* point is that because of Ilum, there are so many out there it's a common occurrence. If you play Republic side, you see it a lot more, because Ilum is a free valor farm for Imperials on most servers, and it's gained at a ridiculously easy pace. Battlemaster on the overpopulated faction's side means NOTHING 9 times out of 10.

 

Sooo....doesn't matter what gear people are wearing. Bad players will still be bad. And they don't have to be astronomically bad. Just worse than you.

 

I've gotten many wins where the enemy team was even more skilled than my entire team in a raw deathmatch sense, not just better geared, but because we played smart and the entire match we stole voidstar/huttball wins from them. Warzones aren't about farming medals, as it's been said a million times, it's about outsmarting your opponent to complete the objective, and actually talking/planning in ops chat before the match based on your team composition instead of running around like chickens with your heads cut off.

[L-RANDLE]

killing someone who's in BM while in greens and blues says a lot about the person you killed, but doesn't say anything about you. yes, you can kill a BM who's afk or who is choking on a hot pocket, but the amount of bad that has to be on their part for you to succeed is staggering.

 

So gear actually doesn't matter in some cases? /irony