Delekii Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 what fictional 20% are you spouting about? Its 13.5% in head-to-toe battlemaster. Expertise has diminishing returns. And no, i dont think that 340 cunning is a 20% dps increase. But the better stats on the off-pieces of the gear will certainly be more than a 10% increase. Just for one skill (Ambush) Going from my PvP gear (full champ): 1379 Cunning/358.6 bonus damage - Ambush is 2607-2807 1450 cunning/408.1 bonus damage - Ambush is 2770-2970 Thats a 163 damage loss on that one single skills, and my PvE gear is lower level than my PvP gear - im in mostly orange gear with daily quest mods and a few stripped enhancements from spare PvP pieces or Columi gear (from tokens for other classes from HMs). If i was in full Columi-level gear, it'd be more like 300 damage difference (acutally the spreadhseet says 330 damage, but well round down). That's more like a 14% difference in dps. And that isn't even taking into account the extra 5% crit and 30% surge in my PvE gear. Rakata will take.. slightly more damage, but you EASILY lose the 13.5% damage you can from full battlemaster in lost stats. All it is doing is bringing you back up to where you would have been. 13.5% expertise is a 27% damage spread in practice. If you both start at 100% damage, and you gain 13.5% expertise, you do 113.5% damage and you take 86.5% damage. That is a 27% damage spread. In terms of TTL in PvP, that is extremely important, and increases every point of healing you receive by _atleast_ 27% in efficiency. I am not 100% sure on the math, but I have a feeling the value grows as the expertise does (ergo: the "DR" on expertise actually only combats its increasing value as far as survivability goes). The same situation exists in WoW - PvE gear has more damage stats, but PvP gear has resilience. Resilience has only one facet in wow - damage reduction - but still it is by far the greatest TTL tool in WoW PvP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mhorlok Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Had the following medals: 2.5k single hit solo kill killing blow 2.5k heal 5k heal 75k damage done 300k damage done 1k defender 3k defender Ok where to start... Solo kill if you get lucky I guess Killing blow usually 2.5 heal 5k heal as a tank? someone is using the Frozen Water Exploit 1k Defender 3k Defender not an option to Commando's 300k Damage done - once I get Full BM gear perhaps... Now I am lucky to break 200k and I am usually in the top 3 damage dealers for my side. I just finished a typical Warzone. I will admin I was unlucky but I got 1 medal, 75k Damage no killing Blow, no Solo kill the next highest damage done on my team was 57k so I was top Damage dealer. Heals - no even as a Commando I usually die to fast to take the 2.9 seconds it takes to cast a heal for a shot at the 2.5 heal medal So 5 Commendations total of 30... No one votes for MVP's... While most of the imp's when I targeted them had over 7 medals showing.. Once again the Have's vs the Have Not's and once again you are clueless in your assuptions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyranoc Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Not going to quote the entire novel, but you need to do some research on effective health vs. actual health, and time to live. A 20% damage spread from expertise is FAR, FAR more desirable than 20% more health. It increases your longevity by significnatly more than the extra hp does without even considering heals incoming or cooldown use, and much moreso the more healing you receive. It also increases the value of every heal you receive because each hp you have is more valuable than the hp on someone with less mitigation. Also, if you think that ~340 cunning is even close to a 20% dps increase, you are severely mistaken. Full PvP gear will destroy full rakata gear every time, and even moreso when healing is considered. 20%??? WHAAAAAAAAAAAT???? Dude im pushing 600+ expertise and I only have 12%!!!!! I want whatever gear you are talking about, as not even full battlemaster gives that!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyranoc Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 13.5% expertise is a 27% damage spread in practice. If you both start at 100% damage, and you gain 13.5% expertise, you do 113.5% damage and you take 86.5% damage. That is a 27% damage spread. In terms of TTL in PvP, that is extremely important, and increases every point of healing you receive by _atleast_ 27% in efficiency. I am not 100% sure on the math, but I have a feeling the value grows as the expertise does (ergo: the "DR" on expertise actually only combats its increasing value as far as survivability goes). The same situation exists in WoW - PvE gear has more damage stats, but PvP gear has resilience. Resilience has only one facet in wow - damage reduction - but still it is by far the greatest TTL tool in WoW PvP. Um... I think you are confused... With my Cube equiped my Expertise is 590... 590 expertise = +11.37 Damage Boost in PvP +11.37 Damage Reduction in PvP +11.37 Healing Boost in PvP 11.37% Damage boost + 11.37% damage reduction does not equal 22.74% or 20% damage boost like you claim. If I earn 30% more than you, and am 45% richer than you, that does not mean my wage is 75% more than yours... Your logic confuses me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyranoc Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Ok where to start... Solo kill if you get lucky I guess Killing blow usually 2.5 heal 5k heal as a tank? someone is using the Frozen Water Exploit 1k Defender 3k Defender not an option to Commando's 300k Damage done - once I get Full BM gear perhaps... Now I am lucky to break 200k and I am usually in the top 3 damage dealers for my side. I just finished a typical Warzone. I will admin I was unlucky but I got 1 medal, 75k Damage no killing Blow, no Solo kill the next highest damage done on my team was 57k so I was top Damage dealer. Heals - no even as a Commando I usually die to fast to take the 2.9 seconds it takes to cast a heal for a shot at the 2.5 heal medal So 5 Commendations total of 30... No one votes for MVP's... While most of the imp's when I targeted them had over 7 medals showing.. Once again the Have's vs the Have Not's and once again you are clueless in your assuptions Your servers playerbase is obviously of poor standard... Even the ungeared people who I pug with when my guildies aren't on score well over that in damage and in medals 99% of the time... You can't blame that on PvP gear and the expertise stat... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyranoc Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Because 300 expertise is about 5%. not the 25% you reported. Can you do math? So what you're saying is that the expertise stat in-game LIES? That instead of buffing my damage by the 10.5% i get in my full champion gear, its actually doing MORE? See that latin in my signature? That's Occam's Razor. Go read about it. "12-14k not in BM gear, blah blah blah" As their HP goes up.. you realize their ARMOR IS GOING UP TOO? They are going from lower-rating armor to higher-rating armor, which provides more armor points, EVEN IN PVE GEAR. I have 16k in my PvE gear. I'd have even more if i had columi. (and only 15.3k in my PvP gear - Full champion!) I understand it, but trying to blame that on the faction you're playing is simply not logical. You're losing because your team is losing. Understand these clowns dont know anything of Columni or Rakata gear... of they did they would understand why their logic is fail. I'm a marauder and in my Columni and Rakata gear my HP sky rockets in comparison to my Champ stuff! My Armour goes through the roof as well, and so does my crit chance... It becomes insane with only every 4th or 5th shot NOT being a crit. And my crits doing +67% damage I see the output of Rakata being MUCH higher than the +11.37% damage I get with expertise of 590 from my PvP set up. In this guys case you are right, he is blaming gear, not the fact that his faction is performing crap. But as I earlier mentioned its easier to point the finger at others rather than look and realise the issue is actually yourself or your performance. This is a textbook example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mhorlok Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 score well over that in damage and in medals 99% of the time... Most of the time I do as well, I range from 150k to 200k Good matches I hit 250k I don't think I have ever hit 300k but then again 273 Expertise I didn't get my Battlemaster gear leveling against level 10 Scoundrals trying to see what PvP is all about... I am having to earn it now, as my Expertise improves so does everything from my damage to my surviveability. i personally believe the biggest issue is the gap I see between sides, BW can't fix that unless they take a Server with Massive Republic Pop and lower Empire pop and merge with it's counterpart of more Emp and less Rep - then perhaps things could be balanced... but consider this When the game was released you could essentially buy Expertise gear from a vendor for next to nothing. They stealthily removed that - but some people knew and leveraged it. Then they had it so Valor and Commendations were close between wins and loses so everyone was getting mass points and people would just sit in a pvp zone doing nothing - literally nothing but not going Linkdead for points - so they nerfed points if you lose. Once again the early conformers got to rack up mad points and valor. There used to be a single PvP pool, so your level 50 of one side was killing your level 20 of the other once again causing issues. This not only gave the early level 50 toons an advantage it caused a MASSIVE number of people on the opposing side to simply give up on pvp entirely. Now several weeks later you have people that casually leveled up hitting 50 with Zero expertise and valor around 30ish competing against Battlemasters and War heros with a massive amount of Expertise. Once again if you are on the side that wins all the time it's great you level your Valor quickly and get into full Champ gear in 2 weeks, if you are on the side getting beat down you have a few VERY few willing to trudge through the mess and try to get the gear but most of the time you get new level 50's that try PvP for a day or two and give up. meaning not many people are in the Queue at the level 50 tier from one side, the other side gets better and better at PvP - Not just because they get gear but they get practice fighting against other battlemasters, then they fight against the other side and it's like taking candy from a baby... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mhorlok Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 In this guys case you are right, he is blaming gear, not the fact that his faction is performing crap. But as I earlier mentioned its easier to point the finger at others rather than look and realise the issue is actually yourself or your performance. Read this last post above you are reading my post as if gear is the only issue. The original post I actually said Gear is not the Core issue, a single Stat called Expertise accounts for a huge amount in this game - as I said before if you doubt me duel a buddy with it on and then again with it off and see how it affects things. Expertise is the Straw - not the camel The camel that broke is due to extremely poor planning on BW's part during the early stages of the game creating a MASSIVE distance between the "Active Sides" and the Casual sides. This opened a gap between the Factions and when you get newbies going against Battlemasters and War hero's slaughter is going to commence - regardless of how good you think you are if you cannot bridge the gap this gear creates you create an environment where those with the gear think its great - aka you two losers - and the rest of us trying to break into your market. An analogy since you seem to have a hard time grasping this... You take two salesman and say the world is your market go sell. One uses an Autodialer and calls thousands of people per hour getting 100k clients the other goes door to door and gets 100 clients then you compare the cash each brings in - obviously the guy with 100k clients brings in more cash. Wait it gets better - then you say Autodialers are illegal and you cannot use them you must go door to door. Well Salesman 1 still has a 100k client base and Salesman 2 still has a 100 client base. Wait a week and once again compare the results - gee for some reason Salesman 2 just can't seem to catch up to Salesman 1 - no matter how hard he works, no matter how much time he puts in he cannot close the gap. how do you fix it? People are saying to fix this issue is SWTOR the best way is make expertise gear easier to get. I am saying lessen the effectiveness of Expertise gear (take away some of the salesman 1's clients) to level the playing field for everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tuxiewuxie Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 this is very player friendly mmo where getting pvp gear is too easy from doing pvp so I do not understand why the so called "skilful, ungeared, pve, casual" *cough* carebears keep crying about getting owned by the "unskilled" pvpers in full bm or champion gear. ok fine these "skilful, ungeared pvers" players want pvp gear to be nerfed or to be closer to the top pve gear. ok that is fine, but let us all also make gear obtained from doing solo quests as good at the raid gear shall we, lets get rid of the orange gear at the corellia vendor and replace them with purple gear equal to rakata gear for the same price, after all its all about skill right, and it does not matter if u got it from killing a raid boss or the last elite boss in a solo instance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peempo Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Time is not the determining factor in gearing up, luck with the RNG is. You can pvp for hours and walk away with no gear. Someone can pop on, do their daily, and have more to show for it. The reward system is far more broken than the stat. A reward system based in luck does not reward people evenly and only perpetuates the gap between the haves and the have nots. Yes, you can get commendations, but if you don't get lucky with your bags you will be outpaced by anyone who is. I'm not saying Expertise doesn't come with issues. However, when the means to close that gap are not reliable, the system becomes worse than the stat. Maybe if some of you took the time to come down from your high horse once in a while you would understand this. ^he won, until the system is fixed things won't change Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CapitaFK Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 PVP gear isn't skilled. It's just a matter of who grinds the most. You could derp and hit 1 button all day and get full PVP gear to faceroll someone who doesn't. You call that skill? Meet me in GW or GW2 where gear is a non-issue and I'll be happy to show you the difference between gear and skill. Oh, that's right. All the noob WoW TBC PVPers who grew up with Resilience think PVP gear makes you good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BurnsTwoThree Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 What does 1-49 tell us about PvP gear? Nothing. What does it actually tell us? Talent points matter ------------------------------------------End Thread-------------------------------------- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jebi Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 (edited) PVP gear isn't skilled. It's just a matter of who grinds the most. You could derp and hit 1 button all day and get full PVP gear to faceroll someone who doesn't. You call that skill? Meet me in GW or GW2 where gear is a non-issue and I'll be happy to show you the difference between gear and skill. Oh, that's right. All the noob WoW TBC PVPers who grew up with Resilience think PVP gear makes you good. Pretty much this ^. Funny watching all these post WOW 'PVP'ers' (lol) getting sooooo defensive about their gear advantage... it's kinda like... they are scared or somefin??? Edited February 7, 2012 by Jebi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abiza Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 (edited) Ok where to start... Solo kill if you get lucky I guess Killing blow usually 2.5 heal 5k heal as a tank? someone is using the Frozen Water Exploit 1k Defender 3k Defender not an option to Commando's 300k Damage done - once I get Full BM gear perhaps... Now I am lucky to break 200k and I am usually in the top 3 damage dealers for my side. I just finished a typical Warzone. I will admin I was unlucky but I got 1 medal, 75k Damage no killing Blow, no Solo kill the next highest damage done on my team was 57k so I was top Damage dealer. Heals - no even as a Commando I usually die to fast to take the 2.9 seconds it takes to cast a heal for a shot at the 2.5 heal medal So 5 Commendations total of 30... No one votes for MVP's... While most of the imp's when I targeted them had over 7 medals showing.. Once again the Have's vs the Have Not's and once again you are clueless in your assuptions Just gonna stop you right there. You're saying a a commando can't get 300k. REALLY?. I don't care what your gear is, your AC abilities scream easy damage. Your problem isn't expertise, it's that you don't know what you're doing in a WZ. At all. Don't even get me started on the rest of the excuses you just dished out. Edited February 7, 2012 by Abiza Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaoogaa Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 1-49 skill > gear with the bolster system 50+ gear > skill although gear and skill >>all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winteria Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 the anwser to your post is GW2, where no one get better gears in pvp but only choose the skills to use and the Most skilled team with the best players win. thats it, and yes pvp based on gear is retarded... they even plan on making GW2 an E-Sport like SC2.. cause its all skills and techniques. anyway the pvp is a joke in TOR. nice try Bioware Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScootyPuffSenior Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Problem is when lvl 49 ding 50 they are no longer the big fish in a small pond. They can no longer prey on low levels and noobs with no pvp exp. As a fan of irony, I'm enjoying you belittling players and their non-skill advantages in order to defend the non-skill advantage of PvP gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noctournys Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 13.5% expertise is a 27% damage spread in practice. If you both start at 100% damage, and you gain 13.5% expertise, you do 113.5% damage and you take 86.5% damage. That is a 27% damage spread. In terms of TTL in PvP, that is extremely important, and increases every point of healing you receive by _atleast_ 27% in efficiency. I am not 100% sure on the math, but I have a feeling the value grows as the expertise does (ergo: the "DR" on expertise actually only combats its increasing value as far as survivability goes). The same situation exists in WoW - PvE gear has more damage stats, but PvP gear has resilience. Resilience has only one facet in wow - damage reduction - but still it is by far the greatest TTL tool in WoW PvP. flaw in your theory: You DONT both start at 100% damage. Youll lose (pretty conservatively) almost 150-200 bonus damage going from PvE to PvP gear. (from lost main stat and the like). On my shots as a sniper.. thats a loss of more than 13% damage. 450 damage on ambush alone. (which is a 22% loss) and this isn't even counting lost crit and surge rating into the mix. So, given equal gear (Battlemaster V Rakata, Columi V Champ, and the equally useless Tionese V Centurion), the PvP guy starts at a deficit. If i do 1000 dps in Rakata, for instance... a Battlemaster starts at 800dps. (just made up numbers, but the percentages aren't off by much). So if he gets a 13.5% damage bonus... thatll bring him up to 930dps or so, still below the guy in Rakata. That's the point im trying to make. Couple that with the guy in Rakata ALSO having a lot more HP (up to 3k more depending on class) .. and it becomes something of a wash. And thats what im saying - given equal item levels, its a wash. It's meant to prevent PvP gear from PvE, not the other way around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elysion Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 pvp titles and ranks and cosmetic stuff would be enough. There are plenty of mmos where people pvp to pvp. its only these themepark raidgrinding pve based mmos that feel the need to really reward people grinding pvp. That said pve gear looks horrible in this game so untill they fix that keep the pvp gear in, its honestly the only gear i even want to get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RayneDancer Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Just adding in my own thoughts on this. I agree with having PvP sets in the game. Sets that are acquired through PvP, as opposed to PvE, for those who vastly prefer PvP over PvE. I believe that those same players should be able to go do PvE content in the same gear without being punished with their gear having a large amount of a PvP only stat on it. I also believe the same should be true for those who primarily enjoy PvE, in that they should be allowed to PvP with the same gear they've earned in PvE, without being at a serious disadvantage for lack of a PvP stat. To summarize my entire belief: Get rid of Expertise as a stat, entirely, and re-itemize the PvP gear (including set bonuses). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PicthShemet Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 flaw in your theory: You DONT both start at 100% damage. Youll lose (pretty conservatively) almost 150-200 bonus damage going from PvE to PvP gear. (from lost main stat and the like). On my shots as a sniper.. thats a loss of more than 13% damage. 450 damage on ambush alone. (which is a 22% loss) and this isn't even counting lost crit and surge rating into the mix. So, given equal gear (Battlemaster V Rakata, Columi V Champ, and the equally useless Tionese V Centurion), the PvP guy starts at a deficit. If i do 1000 dps in Rakata, for instance... a Battlemaster starts at 800dps. (just made up numbers, but the percentages aren't off by much). So if he gets a 13.5% damage bonus... thatll bring him up to 930dps or so, still below the guy in Rakata. That's the point im trying to make. Couple that with the guy in Rakata ALSO having a lot more HP (up to 3k more depending on class) .. and it becomes something of a wash. And thats what im saying - given equal item levels, its a wash. It's meant to prevent PvP gear from PvE, not the other way around. Finally someone else understands how it works. I take a huge hit in dmg/hp when changing from my PvE stuff to my Battlemaster stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeoHogger Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 (edited) So, given equal gear (Battlemaster V Rakata, Columi V Champ, and the equally useless Tionese V Centurion), the PvP guy starts at a deficit. If i do 1000 dps in Rakata, for instance... a Battlemaster starts at 800dps. (just made up numbers, but the percentages aren't off by much). So if he gets a 13.5% damage bonus... thatll bring him up to 930dps or so, still below the guy in Rakata. WRONG Rakata geared player does 1000 DPS. Battlemaster geared player does 800 DPS. Your own numbers. Battlemaster player has 13.5% expertise. Soooo... the Rakata player does 1000 * 0.865 = 865 DPS against the Battlemaster player. The Battlemaster player does 800 * 1.135 = 908 DPS against the Rakata player. Also the Battlemaster player has more health, due to the extra endurance on PvP gear. So all the numbers indicate that, given the same skill level, the Battlemaster player wins against the Rakata player. Go back to the math class please. Edited February 7, 2012 by NeoHogger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noctournys Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 (edited) WRONG Rakata geared player does 1000 DPS. Battlemaster geared player does 800 DPS. Your own numbers. Battlemaster player has 13.5% expertise. Soooo... the Rakata player does 1000 * 0.865 = 865 DPS against the Battlemaster player. The Battlemaster player does 800 * 1.135 = 908 DPS against the Rakata player. Also the Battlemaster player has more health, due to the extra endurance on PvP gear. So all the numbers indicate that, given the same skill level, the Battlemaster player wins against the Rakata player. Go back to the math class please. There is no extra endurance on PvP gear, son. there is LESS, substantially less, depending on the piece. See below: http://knotor.com/items/612689 - Battlemaster, 92 endurance http://knotor.com/items/588288 - Rakata - 105 endurance. And that's my sniper stuff, with the smallest loss of endurance going from Rakata > Battlemeaster, at "only" losing 13 per main-set piece, and 22 per off-set piece. Then you get to the ear and implants, where its a difference of almost 35 endurance. Battlemaster gear has LESS endurance. Edited February 7, 2012 by Noctournys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyranoc Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 WRONG Rakata geared player does 1000 DPS. Battlemaster geared player does 800 DPS. Your own numbers. Battlemaster player has 13.5% expertise. Soooo... the Rakata player does 1000 * 0.865 = 865 DPS against the Battlemaster player. The Battlemaster player does 800 * 1.135 = 908 DPS against the Rakata player. Also the Battlemaster player has more health, due to the extra endurance on PvP gear. So all the numbers indicate that, given the same skill level, the Battlemaster player wins against the Rakata player. Go back to the math class please. There is less endurance on PvP gear... Alot less... Also you forgot the HUGE crit boost rakata gives ppl like marauders... according to your calculations Rakata does less damage than BM.... In Rakata 3/4 - 9/10 of my attacks are critical hits. I do 67% more damage each critical, not to mention DoT's heal me... SO add that extra damage to the equation... You will see BM still loses out. Tho it is pretty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyranoc Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 PVP gear isn't skilled. It's just a matter of who grinds the most. You could derp and hit 1 button all day and get full PVP gear to faceroll someone who doesn't. You call that skill? Meet me in GW or GW2 where gear is a non-issue and I'll be happy to show you the difference between gear and skill. Oh, that's right. All the noob WoW TBC PVPers who grew up with Resilience think PVP gear makes you good. If you could derp and hit 1 button all day and get full PvP gear then why arent you fully geared? I mean I'd love to derp it up and be fully geared... But i keep getting offhanders and relics instead of m boots and bracers!!!!!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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