Sexual violence, slavery, and genocide. Just another day in the Empire?

[Mateops]

Op,

 

I think you are wrong. I could*write a lenghty post and explain point after point why i think so, but MANY have already tried to do that and you seem to either dismiss it or simply not to understand it, it was your choice, the shock was not sexual etc. Its been done already.

 

I think crusaders are dangerous people, when they feel (its all feeling in the end because you cannot handle rationality) they are right they just take that moral high ground and never leave it.

 

I am a avid scholar of history, and to be honest, most of the "monsters" started out just like you, with a crusade, with wanting to set things right etc. (You will probably never have that impact on the world and thats a good thing) In a way its not surprising you took that road with Vette, I do think you are more "sith" than you think, all the anger you reframe as justice or your cause to make the world a better place is not that far from what is called in this fiction universe as the dark side. You would be easy to turn lets just say...

 

I also disagree that the Empire is essentially evil. Maybe just a little bit less hypocritical. But thats another debate.

 

In RL what you call evil is usually pretty, attractive and charming, thats how it survives... This game had none of that, "evil" is so easily recognisable in swotor, and like most villains in any kind of fiction, talks to much, is over confident, or just does not know how to shoot a blaster and aim...

 

In terms of torture, the ones that do excell in this and have done so are what you would call the good guys, the organised religions, some governments, the "individual torture" per say has not never accounted for much.

 

And BTW slavery in this game is just the same, its first degree, armless... ; in RL we have more developped forms of slavery where the slaves does not even know. The ancient model of slavery (they are many forms of slavery) have been mostly abolished but it never was because of moral people or would be crusaders, it simply was economic sense, states have abandonned slavery because it was no longuer sustainable.

 

you probably wont even read this but here it is, I could go on and on... but I am a wage slave at work so I have to get back to business now before it affects my "performance" and I get "disciplined".

 

Enjoy life with your invisible collar

Edited February 8, 2012 by Mateops

[-sasori]

Why does slavery and bigotery sicken your GF but not you?

Some of the most powerful Sith are women by the way and they do these things just as well as the males.

My GF played the game as well and had no problems with it on her IA.

That being said I have not witnessed sexual violence on my 4 imperial characters yet. Slavery, deception, hate etc. yes but that? No.

 

Edit: Never pressed space bar when playing a quest/storyline first time.

 

Edit: And the writing is not better or worse what you see in SW. Its about on par with the movies.

 

I think the sexual violence has less to do with what you do with vette, but what you make her watch.

 

No spoilers here!

[Tamaranis]

- You can choose whether to use the shock collar on Vette. Having watched a video containing most of the instances in which Vette is tortured specifically so I could reply, I can confirm that THERE IS NO SEXUAL ABUSE of her, at any given point. As said a page or two back she actually keeps the collar, and might use it with the SW, if in a romance.

The torture happens, either because the PC wants to make a point, or simply for the kicks in what I've seen. Since the player CAN and MUST choose whether he wants to see this content, there is absolutely no reason the ESRB, or PEGI or anyone would change the rating. It IS possible to torture her, but it's not, required, nor encouraged by anyone.

The CHOICE part is especially important in this arguement. The OP claims children shouldn't be able to see this content, when they can choose whether they want. They might be better off for doing so, because they can learn from the depravity of the Sith.

Shampoo's original complaints were that the way the torture is presented is offensive (not simply that the content exists) and have an attractive woman as a slave who you can torture should constitute mature content. Many people responded that this content is optional.

 

The response is a non sequitur no matter how many times it's offered.

 

- Most Sith are inherrently evil(Lord Praven is an example of one who isn't). That means their actions can be, by real world standards, completely illogical. They torture, kill, enslave, and worse because they can, and even find pleasure in it. Even non-Sith are content with such activity, and encourage it. The Empire as a whole is a society where evils such as genocide are fully acceptable, and thus the title of the thread makes total sense for Imps. That means it's to be expected that when makes DS choices, they'll be evil. Like really evil. Best example so far for me has been Major Bessiker and son, Balmorra, SI storyline, won't give any spoilers, but I was near amazed at how depraved it all was. Nearly had a maniacal-laughter moment myself. Don't really know what the OP was expecting, when choosing DS choices as an Imp.

 

Again, the original complaint was not that the empire is evil, or that the empire does evil things. The complaint was with the way evil is portrayed. You're not addressing the OP.

 

- Male on Female torture is: BAD OH MI GAWD WUT DID I JUS DO?! Female on Male torture: Nothing to see here, move on. I haven't seen the OP adressing SW torture of Quinn(is it Quinn, haven't played a SW yet). I know for a fact that my SI has tortured equal amounts male and female NPCs, probably more males too. Why do we only look at Vette's torture again? Just because she's Twi'lek and female? Ridiculous.

 

Once again, this is a derail. The OP made no attempt to justify or ignore other instances of torture or abuse.

 

I think the OP's problem is he has a Vette avatar here. He really should change it to trollface. Also please, cut it out with "my journalist friends and I" and other such rubbish. You gave us Kotaku FFS, and along with it sites/blogs, commenting WITHOUT KNOWLEDGE OF THE GAME, on the damn Kotaku article. For shame. If you're really bothered by choices YOU made in the bloody game, choices YOU knew would be evil, and have to QQ in the forums instead of rerolling or something then you're beyond help.

 

Those posts were meant to indicate the perception of SW:TOR Vette's situation has created. Whether or not the people developing that perception are players has nothing to do with whether or not it exists.

 

Only thing I agree with is lack of consequence for such actions. Since the thread's mostly about Vette's handling, perhaps she could one day try to kill you in your sleep or backstab you. That would be interesting.

 

Right at the end there you seemed to catch on to what the OP actually said. Too bad you waited for the last three sentences of your post.

 

Unfortunately, you have done an excellent job of summing up what other people have said in response to the OP.

[drdarpa]

perpetuating age old chauvinistic view of female characters....

 

Why does it seem like developers go out of there way to make games unfriendly to women? My girlfriend was literally sickened by it

 

Probably because they had a feeling you'd go out of your way to be offended by it.

 

By the way, COD Black Ops has a map called "Nuketown" in which a female dummy is in a kitchen.

 

It's pretty disturbing, you should check it out and complain.

 

 

Shampoo's original complaints were that the way the torture is presented is offensive (not simply that the content exists) and have an attractive woman as a slave who you can torture should constitute mature content. Many people responded that this content is optional.

 

Who cares? The ESRB exists not to rate games, but to become an institute of bribery, much like every gaming magazine ever.

 

Their ratings mean nothing other than the fact that an 11 year-old child's parent may be carded when they purchase the game for their child in order to avoid their own responsibilities and act like children themselves.

 

Pardon me if I don't share your outrage at a little bit of animated violence and sexual taboo.

Edited February 8, 2012 by Moitteva
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[Stabmaster-Arson]

Fixed, sorry for sounding crass there. I was a little fired up about the whole situation as somebody who is active in trying to advocate for gender equality.

 

Might be the problem right there. This is a video game. We do not WANT political correctness in video games. Gender equality? My female Inquisitor is one of the most powerful members of the Empire. Moffs bow when I walk past, and when I talk, they say "Yes my LORD" or else. If that's not equality, I don't know what is There's no glass ceiling here.

 

I appreciate that you're an advocate for a special interest. That's all well and noble. But, no offense, maybe take that passion and commitment and stow it when playing a science fiction MMO?

 

The fact that SwTor has provoked this response, while other MMO's don't, is a good indication that they were successful in getting an emotional response from the player. That's why SwTor is so unique, and why it HAS advanced the art form of video games. In WoW or other games, you blindly hit "accept quest" without a care of the consequences because there are none. You don't even bother reading the quest text half the time. It's always the same (kill x number of kobolds, deliver package to y) with no impact at all on anything. Not even your characters mental state or beliefs. In SwTor your choices matter. It's an MMORPG because we've finally gotten back to the "role playing" aspect. Something that's been neglected for too long.

 

I've done things and made choices playing my Sith Inquisitor that have made me feel real genuine emotions. I once had to choose between 100 Dark Side points or murdering someone who's only crime was helping me. And dooming the rest of his group to a slower similar fate. I was amazed to feel real genuine conflict over this decision, and even a little bit of self loathing when it was made. In a video game!? I'm 34 years old. I have played everything, done everything, and you could say I'm jaded at this point. Games haven't been "real" for me in a very long time. But when SwTor makes me do a double take and evaluate my moral fiber because of something I've done....well that's just amazing. BioWare should be praised for truly breaking new ground on a game of this scale.

 

I'm sorry they hit a nerve. But it sounds like you want censorship, and I cannot abide that no matter how eloquently you hide behind the "children" who might be playing. Or your girlfriends who might be offended. Or what Forbes, a known socially Conservative publication, feels about it.

[Kaskava]

Someone should give the OP and his defenders a copy of the Witcher 2. Then we can all sit back, and watch the fun.

[drdarpa]

Might be the problem right there. This is a video game. We do not WANT political correctness in video games. Gender equality? My female Inquisitor is one of the most powerful members of the Empire. Moffs bow when I walk past, and when I talk, they say "Yes my LORD" or else. If that's not equality, I don't know what is There's no glass ceiling here.

 

I appreciate that you're an advocate for a special interest. That's all well and noble. But, no offense, maybe take that passion and commitment and stow it when playing a science fiction MMO?

 

 

I'm sorry they hit a nerve. But it sounds like you want censorship, and I cannot abide that no matter how eloquently you hide behind the "children" who might be playing. Or your girlfriends who might be offended. Or what Forbes, a known socially Conservative publication, feels about it.

 

This. There's already enough PC in the real world. Let's try to make our recreation a little less lame.

[thesilentearth]

I agree with the OP that the stuff with vette is taken too far.

 

However, I also think too much of modern art is filtered to the point where artists are afraid to express themselves as artists and individuals. It's why I believe the video game industry has turned into the rehashed garbage that it is. Artists are playing it safe.

 

The underlying issue is that people find joy out of torturing vette. We shouldn't be asking why the ability to do it was placed in the game, but why are people enjoying torturing a young woman? I know when I was presented with the choice on my Juggernaut, I took her shock collar off. I was personally more interested in the possibility of romance than violence and torture.

 

That all being said, I'm also a big believer in making all MMOs rated "M". Not because of the potential content of the game, but because the world is full of twisted and evil ****s. MMOs tend to bring a lot of them together into one place.

Edited February 8, 2012 by thesilentearth

[drdarpa]

 

That all being said, I'm also a big believer in making all MMOs rated "M". Not because of the potential content of the game, but because the world is full of twisted and evil ****s. MMOs tend to bring a lot of them together into one place.

 

 

asl?

[thesilentearth]

asl?

 

Lol. Exactly

[Tetrablade]

Did you read the entirety of the post? How often do you press spacebar? Do you feel there's anything problematic with the way some of the Empire quest lines are handled given it's T for Teen rating?

 

perpetuating age old chauvinistic view of female characters, aiding in slave trades, verifying race purity, sexually abusing a companion who genuinely just wants to help you.

 

Why does it seem like developers go out of there way to make games unfriendly to women? My girlfriend was literally sickened by it

 

--and yes she agreed that under the circumstance of a more intelligent, well developed scene the actions could be made justifiably, but as they stand it's just gross. Certainly worthy of an M rating and not fitting the Pixar vibe you get for the other odd half of the content.

 

Um, seriously just take a good look at commercials. Forget tv, movies, books, just look at commercials and ads and you will see the same. Hint: Ever see the dad doing laundry?

 

It isn't right, but given how this universe you can either be 'good' or 'bad'. Not a whole lot of grey.

Edited February 8, 2012 by Tetrablade

[MoistMuffin]

These reprehensible story and design decisions were something I was astonished to see from what we once knew as Bioware. It's disheartening.

 

This made me laugh and take everything you said as a troll simply because if You had played any of the KOTOR or even Jade Empire as an evil character you get way more violent/sexual than this MMO.

 

I can't speak for the MA games as I haven't played them but I know they have actual sex scenese in them

[ByronixHero]

Unfortunately, you have done an excellent job of summing up what other people have said in response to the OP.

 

Tamaranis, I get that you support the OP. I give you, the first sentece of my post:

 

I read most of the thread, so I'd like to summarize key points the OP evaded, while answering (for the 53 pages of the thread) to himself, mostly.

 

Comprehension fail? I said that I AM as a matter of fact, summarizing what others said in the thread, and adding my own take in it.

 

Shampoo's original complaints were that the way the torture is presented is offensive (not simply that the content exists) and have an attractive woman as a slave who you can torture should constitute mature content. Many people responded that this content is optional.

 

The response is a non sequitur no matter how many times it's offered.

 

I'm unsure what non-sequitur is(something latin clearly) but as a matter of fact yes, the fact that something IS optional has great meaning. Optional content CAN NOT be rated. You may have noticed how someone posted ESRB's rating. Torture of constrained individuals with lightning is mentioned. There are multiple instances of this in the SI story. It also fits with Vette's condition, she's a slave after all. No mention of sexual abuse.The adolescents who the OP tries to defend so much (hey I still was one a few months ago) have choice in the matter of torturing Vette. If they so choose, they can be disgusted, or fascinated. It's their call. Not the ESRB(whose role is advisory after all), not anyone can make it for them.

 

The sith being evil also has meaning in my arguement. And I specifically mean the sith, because there are many Imps who aren't evil (PCs can be included). The OP said of his expectations of BW as being high, yet he says they didn't deliver, because he was sickened by the aforementioned torture. He was playing sith warrior. Being a bastard is expected of, and encouraged by, sith. You can't tell me of expectations, of (possibly) flowers and kittens, when you were playing the "bad guys".

And yet, being sickened, or generally having emotions generated from one's actions in the game, means the devs did a good work with the story. They moved you. That's the whole point of a story. It's captivating and moves each of us in a different way. The fact that the OP was sickened by this, is not bad, it means they did well. Why he would want that content removed(and that is censoring it) is beyond me. In the end, if he thought that was wrong, then yes, as others said, he should reroll.

 

By the way. Torture of a woman, anyone for that matter, regardless if he/she's beatiful or ugly, is NOT sexual. Saying otherwise is perverse, torture, in and of itself, is wrong.

While yes, he didn't say torturing males is acceptable, he did never answer to those who told him there is male torture. Ignoring this looks (to me at least, maybe he doesn't intend this) like he considers Vette's torture more important/relevant, because she's a woman. Again it doesn't matter who is tortured.

 

Those posts were meant to indicate the perception of SW:TOR Vette's situation has created. Whether or not the people developing that perception are players has nothing to do with whether or not it exists.

 

A similar situation happened with another very popular BW game. Yeah that one. And people who hadn't played the game developed a flawed perception of the game because of similar posts such as the Kotaku one, not to mention that the news in the US mentioned it, with outcry from the gaming community. In any case, anyone who wants to make a point, should search/look it up first. You can't go around saying "Hey this game has torture" and overlooking the fact that it's neither rewarded, nor forced upon the player. If they went for the fact that gifts will fix her disposition towards you, yeah I'd be fine with that. I think that's terribly silly too.

But the Kotaku author said he wasn't looking for this sort of "emotional engagement"(hating himself for torturing her). Well I'll be damned. He had guilt for torturing her, when he conciously chose too. I can't be the only one seeing the stupidness in this?

 

 

My last point stands. I totally agree with the OP there, and I would have something like that implemented right away, if it were possible. Losing companions wasn't put in the box, for the sake of gameplay (Oh noes, my tank/healer is gone; what am I to do? xD) but BW probably has content like that, unreleased.

Edited February 8, 2012 by ByronixHero

[Kaskava]

This made me laugh and take everything you said as a troll simply because if You had played any of the KOTOR or even Jade Empire as an evil character you get way more violent/sexual than this MMO.

 

I can't speak for the MA games as I haven't played them but I know they have actual sex scenese in them

 

The Witcher 2 was much more graphic.

[tehjai]

 

I'm unsure what non-sequitur is(something latin clearly) but as a matter of fact yes, the fact that something IS optional has great meaning.

 

 

And yet, being sickened, or generally having emotions generated from one's actions in the game, means the devs did a good work with the story.

 

 

While yes, he didn't say torturing males is acceptable, he did never answer to those who told him there is male torture. Ignoring this looks (to me at least, maybe he doesn't intend this) like he considers Vette's torture more important/relevant, because she's a woman. Again it doesn't matter who is tortured.

 

Non-sequitur means that the argument has a conclusion that doesn't follow from its premises. None of which I see with the arguments against what the OP is stating. The OP has said things that can be assumed (and hey, since the OP is making assumptions, so too can we) to mean that they're advocating for censorship or removal of the content; or that they want a social-justice-style "justification" tacked on to the end to give "consequences". Basically, that's being brought up here as though we're pulling the problems we have with the OP's stance out of thin air. Which we are not. The issue of torture and evil in-universe, the gender equality arguments, and the issue of the game's rating are all things that we've discussed because they've been brought up by the OP. Sure, we go into detail on some of those things, but the arguments herein are certainly not non-sequiturs.

 

(Edited to add: Yes, the 'it's optional, shut up' argument falls under that, but several people have actually gone beyond the fact that it's optional and have argued why it is presented the way that it is. But the fact that it's an option pokes great holes in the OP's argument -- they have a choice that is ostensibly less offensive to them; why not take it?)

 

As far as consequences to being evil are concerned, I've gone into that already, but --To put them in to make players feel better detracts from the story. Do I agree that companions ought to be lost if you take things too far? From a story perspective, hell yes! -- but as it's been said, that possibility has been deliberately left out because of gameplay. And gameplay vs story is always something that's hard to balance, especially in an MMO.

 

And you're bang-on about how problematic the OP is being when they automatically sexualize torture, claims that s/he's doing it under the auspices of gender equality (in fact, I only ever heard about how the OP's girlfriend was sickened, and not what the OP themselves really thought...), and then proceeds to ignore the facts that male and female PC's can torture Vette, plus the whole mistreatment of Quinn (a romance option for female characters). Talking about that stilted treatment, and how it relates to the characterization of the Sith Empire, isn't a non-sequitur.

 

I truly believe that the OP is entitled to their opinion, but a creative endeavour that makes you feel uncomfortable isn't inherently a 'bad' or 'poorly done' creative endeavour. The game, in the end, is presented the way it is; if, in the end it challenges you emotionally beyond your means, then perhaps it isn't the game for you.

 

Finally, to Tamaranis: Trotting out logical fallacy terminology as a silencing technique isn't cool no matter how you slice it; some discussions in here certainly have deviated from the OP's original points, but that doesn't make them any less valuable or hell, even educational for the OP had they appeared to have absorbed any of it.

Edited February 8, 2012 by tehjai

[ExileZab]

What I find even more disturbing is that the OP completely refuses to acknowledge the fact that he has continually CHOSEN to keep making these dark side choices.

 

I do not see the use of the shock collar on Vette as being sexualized in the least. In the context of the game, it's torture for the sake of torture.

 

OP, YOU made the choice to keep the collar on Vette. YOU made the choice to continue torturing her, and YOU made the choice to keep her in slavery. You do realize that you had the option to remove the collar and treat her as an equal, don't you?

 

It seems to me that you're at odds with yourself over making those decisions and are now trying to lay the blame on BioWare for having those options in the game. YOU own those decision, not BioWare.

 

If you can't deal with the choices you've made in the game, you have three options... Roll a new character on the Republic side, roll a new Imperial and choose light side options, or simply move on to a different game. Whichever you choose, however, you need to stop blaming others for your choices.

[Mateops]

Quick question for OP

 

Are you even still here???

[sparklecat]

The reason the OP ignoring how the female SW can treat Quinn is relevant to the discussion is because he's taking the stance that Vette's mistreatment is both sexualized and symptomatic of the prejudice women face in our society. What Quinn does is show that no, that's really not the case. We have the option to be abusive to both male and female partners in the game as a SW; I'd claim that's enough in itself to show that the game isn't being sexist in this area. Furthermore, while I think we've had plenty of people here say that they don't find shocking Vette to have any sexual implications unless you read that in, I'd say that the female's treatment of Quinn can be very very coercive and a clear abuse of power, and that's an impression I've checked with others to make sure *I'm* not just reading it in.

 

So not only would I say that TOR isn't sexist in its treatment of males and females, I'd say it's quite the opposite. The SW story *subverts* traditional conceptions and gender... I hesitate to use the word roles, because I don't want to imply that it's a man's role to be an abuser in a relationship, but certainly our beliefs about male/female interactions. Look at the male SW trying to enforce his wishes on Vette when they're in a relationship (not to mention the fact that the collar has to come off for it to even get that far, as has been said); she breaks up with him if he attempts to force a threesome with Jaesa, from what I see people saying, he has to marry her before she'll sleep with him, and in general she simply seems to require better treatment and *respect* if you want to maintain the relationship. She stands up for herself to the male Sith partner, and I find her to be an example of a strong female character in a bad situation.

 

Quinn, on the other hand, quite often lets the female SW walk all over him (which, significantly, she can *do* rather than being forced into more sensitive and kind treatment of him), and sees that as his place. He describes himself as your "dutiful husband" in a letter at one point, where I think most of us would associate 'wife' with that phrase. Even the possibility that he's manipulating the SW is, I think, yet another way in which he's taking the stereotypically female role; going along with sex and a relationship as a means to an end, to gain an advantage over or the protection of/from his stronger partner. And this is all without even touching on the physical side of the abuse that's possible.

 

 

 

So I think the idea that the violence in the game is gender-based, or that Bioware is contributing to the problems of women being viewed as inferior or abuse of them being viewed as acceptable is not only without merit, but based on a very superficial and flawed analysis of the characters and situations involved. If you want to stand up for gender equality, which I am 100% for, you need to get past the idea that any poor treatment of women is inherently sexual or misogynistic. Context matters, and in this case I think the context shows a good pro-feminist treatment of the characters involved by the writers.

[Kaoci]

Did you read the entirety of the post? How often do you press spacebar? Do you feel there's anything problematic with the way some of the Empire quest lines are handled given it's T for Teen rating?

 

perpetuating age old chauvinistic view of female characters, aiding in slave trades, verifying race purity, sexually abusing a companion who genuinely just wants to help you.

 

Why does it seem like developers go out of there way to make games unfriendly to women? My girlfriend was literally sickened by it

 

--and yes she agreed that under the circumstance of a more intelligent, well developed scene the actions could be made justifiably, but as they stand it's just gross. Certainly worthy of an M rating and not fitting the Pixar vibe you get for the other odd half of the content.

 

Ok here is my view on this im glad there is more mature content because if this game was all about teens and kids then tbh id never ever play it this game feels more to me like age of conan yes the teen thing may need changed but the thing is DO you not realise the star wars universe is pretty much sexcist on the empire side? and also tbh the game should be put up a rating if that the case and i bet no matter what the raiting was young kids still would play the game

[maxetius]

So how is zapping Vette sexual? Does it still work if we are both female? What about choking Quinn, is that sexual too?

[zumbledum]

the game doesnt do any of these things the game offers options. my sith jugernaught is i suspect around the same place as the op's im near the end of hoth, My vette hasnt been shocked once or abused in any way the first thing i did was to take off the colar but

 

we are playing Empire characters i am a sith

 

we are all slaves in the empire we all serve , tortue and cruelty are entertainment for us , we are the bad guys. that is the point. or at least i thought it was.

[Kaoci]

to be 100% honest the dark side choices you dislike tbh you shouldnt be picking them just because they are darkside you should be picking them since you agree with that choice

[salaryman]

The OP was 100% correct.

 

And to post this I just had to wade through 50+ pages of reactionary rants that did nothing but prove that they completely missed the subtle points the OP was trying to make.

Edited February 8, 2012 by Moitteva
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[Mateops]

The OP was 100% correct.

 

And to post this I just had to wade through 50+ pages of reactionary rants that did nothing but prove that they completely missed the subtle points the OP was trying to make.

 

Are you just trying to pick a fight?

 

50 pages of rants? of course there will be rants in 50 pages but I must say I am very impressed by most of the responses. This is one of the better articulated and civil threads I have ever seen. The OP asked for intelligent input and got it, but where is she? (my hunch is she is a she not a he but beside the point...)

 

Let me ask you a question Salaryman... did you read many of these pages, I read about 30 something a bit more... Rants are a minority here.

Edited February 8, 2012 by Moitteva
inapp content +replies

[ExileZab]

Nothing about this thread has anything to do with religious dogma. Not to mention the fact that bringing up religion is against the ToS.