Hardmode bosses need mechanics not unfairness

[Loendar]

I'm embarrassed to have to even post this for you -_-

 

http://www.wowwiki.com/Enrage_(mechanic)

 

Read it and learn! There are many kinds of enrages, it is a common combat mechanic in just about most fights.

 

 

Heck here is a thread on it on these very forums

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=109778

 

 

 

The stupidity in here is off the freaking charts.

 

 

 

 

So once again, if you are going to blanket attack enrage timers, at least know what you are talking about. If only your posts where 1/4 as intelligent as that guy in the other thread.

 

 

Thanks for the class but if you were paying attention to the discussion at all you would realize what we are talking about in reference to enrage timers and they don't fit with what you are tying to pass off as them.

 

You are the one that tried to pull in other elements and label them as enrage timers and, just for the record, because it is posted by someone on WowWiki doesn't make it accurate. Those are entirely different mechanics than a hard timer and aren't the subject of this discussion. Please stop trying to muddy the waters by bringing in random elements and labeling them as 'soft' this or that.

 

It is a specific mechanic being discussed - a timer that goes boom without any element beyond that. I'm sorry if you can't discuss the topic at hand. I am - but just avoid it then to not be perceived as being thick.

[Harower]

Thanks for the class but if you were paying attention to the discussion at all you would realize what we are talking about in reference to enrage timers and they don't fit with what you are tying to pass off as them.

 

You are the one that tried to pull in other elements and label them as enrage timers and, just for the record, because it is posted by someone on WowWiki doesn't make it accurate. Those are entirely different mechanics than a hard timer and aren't the subject of this discussion. Please stop trying to muddy the waters by bringing in random elements and labeling them as 'soft' this or that.

 

It is a specific mechanic being discussed - a timer that goes boom without any element beyond that. I'm sorry if you can't discuss the topic at hand. I am - but just avoid it then to not be perceived as being thick.

 

wow, I'm starting to think you buy your own @*#$.

[Loendar]

wow, I'm starting to think you buy your own @*#$.

 

If you are unwilling or unable to discuss the mechanic that we have all been discussing (I guess by your definition a 'hard enrage timer') then I have very little use in debating it with you.

 

Your attempts to somehow change the subject into 'LOL - you don't like any mechanics' discussion was infantile when you did it the first time and you only continue to show you are incapable of discussing the actual topic without injecting nonsense into it.

 

Nobody else but you is having a problem grasping what is being discussed and putting forth valid observations. Perhaps you should take that as a telling assessment of your thoughts in the subject and their relative worth.

[DaceEspada]

Enrage timers are the cheap way out for the devs. It's essentially gear pass/fail. If you have good gear you can beat the timer. You pass. If not you fail. There is no in between. That's totally stupid. Gear no longer makes fights easier. It's now required to make them even possible.

 

I edited this quote to remove the hyperbole about ME3.

 

Damage a Boss Fight does to main tank = Gear check on Tank and a bit on Healer

Damage a Boss fight does to raid = Gear check mostly on healers, a bit on those taking damage

X Happens in Y Time on Mob clearly designed to mean "Must finish fight in Y Time" = Gear check on DPS classes.

 

People who don't get the above, come from places, or believe, that DPS should be the easy part of a raid. I.E. Mash my buttons = win. Successfully DPS'ing a fight is both about Gear AND about proper positioning (avoiding whatever pitfalls an encounter might present during the fight, like AE's, places to stand, having to move the mob etc).

 

It is completely justified that such DPS gear checks are in as they are already in for Tank/Healer set ups. To imply this makes it "less skilled" when nearly every MMO boss fight is more about the numbers than the skill in the first place is erroneous thinking at best.

 

DPS checks were in EQ1 (maybe not as an Enrage timer, but the whole "if you don't kill mob in the right amount of time bad stuff happens mechanic") for anyone who says they weren't, you're memories are faulty. Sure, the enrage timers in SWTOR are probably the least thematic way to implement one, but they achieve their goals.

 

As evidenced here, the mobs can be beat and killed before it enrages, hence if you are failing to do so then your raid is failing to DPS the mob sufficiently to kill it. Period. No matter how "good" you are, or "skilled" you think you may be, the game is telling you, do better.

 

Doing better takes two things: Getting your DPS'ers to get the gear AND managing direct damage on the mob during the fight better (there's the skill part of the equation).

 

You're certainly free to debate whether a particular mobs timer is too slow/too fast but without DPS meters in games, we cannot have a factual basis for the conversation that doesn't just boil down to he-said/she-said.

 

TL;DR: If you can't beat an enrage timer, fix your DPS problem.

[KorrigTS]

It is NOT a DPS check - it is a time check. Something that has no business in a well designed MMO.

 

I don't see how you can argue it not being a DPS check, but instead a time check. The 'S' in DPS stands for second, a unit of time. Enrage timers are indeed a DPS check, or competence check.

 

Keep in mind with proper CD usage (throughput from heals and mitigation from tank), the fight can last quite a bit longer once the boss has enraged.

 

There's nothing wrong with an enrage timer forcing you to down an encounter in a reasonable time allotment.

[KiranK]

People who don't get the above, come from places, or believe, that DPS should be the easy part of a raid. I.E. Mash my buttons = win. Successfully DPS'ing a fight is both about Gear AND about proper positioning (avoiding whatever pitfalls an encounter might present during the fight, like AE's, places to stand, having to move the mob etc).

 

There are many other ways to create gear checks other than stupid enrage timers. Hell, I don't even mind if one or two bosses enrage, but why does every single fight need one? Did all of the Bioware's boss fight developer team have a heart attack? They USED to be able to make engaging, well thought out, and fun fights that didn't involve any sort of enrage what-so-ever. Now it's in practically every boss fight they've come up with.

 

It is completely justified that such DPS gear checks are in as they are already in for Tank/Healer set ups. To imply this makes it "less skilled" when nearly every MMO boss fight is more about the numbers than the skill in the first place is erroneous thinking at best.

 

Then be original about it. Nearly every boss is just a DPS race vs. a hard enrage timer. There are virtually no phases. Sure, maybe the boss throws out a few different attacks here and there based on his health, but your tactics don't change. Tank and spank until it dies. A very few amount of bosses actually require thought. They just took the easy way out to make things "hard". It's very boring.

 

DPS checks were in EQ1 (maybe not as an Enrage timer

 

Then EQ1 can have a cookie.

 

As evidenced here, the mobs can be beat and killed before it enrages, hence if you are failing to do so then your raid is failing to DPS the mob sufficiently to kill it. Period. No matter how "good" you are, or "skilled" you think you may be, the game is telling you, do better.

 

Actually it's telling me that the devs are too lazy to make boss fights are interesting. It's not that we can't do the fights, it's that they're bloody boring. We got geared up, we ran the boss, it died. There wasn't any real tactic to it other than tank and spank. We sat there while it beat on one person and hit it until it died. Occasionally an AoE forced me to move. Wow, never seen a fight like that before.

 

Doing better takes two things: Getting your DPS'ers to get the gear AND managing direct damage on the mob during the fight better (there's the skill part of the equation).

 

Actually doing better involves better bosses. None of the bosses that enrage require any real thought other than "mash DPS keys until it dies".

[kainsec]

Enrage timer are lazy tools used by devs in place of making each boss have a legitimate reason to need to die in a time frame. Some bosses in this game like Kragga for instance feature mechanic that enforce a DPS limit (endless pits o fire that never despawn murdering ppl in them, the longer that fight goes on the harder it's gonna get until you win no need for an enrage timer on top of it even though he does). However, most bosses are just lazy designed to last 5 mins then proceed to instagib.

 

So more mechanics that punish harder the longer the fight goes on and less enrage timers.

[Loendar]

I don't see how you can argue it not being a DPS check, but instead a time check. The 'S' in DPS stands for second, a unit of time. Enrage timers are indeed a DPS check, or competence check.

 

Keep in mind with proper CD usage (throughput from heals and mitigation from tank), the fight can last quite a bit longer once the boss has enraged.

 

There's nothing wrong with an enrage timer forcing you to down an encounter in a reasonable time allotment.

 

Because the timer is completely independent of DPS. DPS is certainly a factor to completing the contest but the timer makes it the only factor that matters.

 

It lowers every encounter to the lowest common denominator of more DPS = win and we should be so far beyond accepting that.

 

And to that point - what is a reasonable time allotment? Why? What 'factor' does it serve to make the encounter better, the gear worth having the fun quotient go up? It doesn't satisfy a single worthwhile condition.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Loendar

[Loendar]

There are many other ways to create gear checks other than stupid enrage timers. Hell, I don't even mind if one or two bosses enrage, but why does every single fight need one? Did all of the Bioware's boss fight developer team have a heart attack? They USED to be able to make engaging, well thought out, and fun fights that didn't involve any sort of enrage what-so-ever. Now it's in practically every boss fight they've come up with.

 

 

 

Then be original about it. Nearly every boss is just a DPS race vs. a hard enrage timer. There are virtually no phases. Sure, maybe the boss throws out a few different attacks here and there based on his health, but your tactics don't change. Tank and spank until it dies. A very few amount of bosses actually require thought. They just took the easy way out to make things "hard". It's very boring.

 

 

 

Then EQ1 can have a cookie.

 

 

 

Actually it's telling me that the devs are too lazy to make boss fights are interesting. It's not that we can't do the fights, it's that they're bloody boring. We got geared up, we ran the boss, it died. There wasn't any real tactic to it other than tank and spank. We sat there while it beat on one person and hit it until it died. Occasionally an AoE forced me to move. Wow, never seen a fight like that before.

 

 

 

Actually doing better involves better bosses. None of the bosses that enrage require any real thought other than "mash DPS keys until it dies".

 

^^ this - as I've been saying page after page.

[Loendar]

Enrage timer are lazy tools used by devs in place of making each boss have a legitimate reason to need to die in a time frame. Some bosses in this game like Kragga for instance feature mechanic that enforce a DPS limit (endless pits o fire that never despawn murdering ppl in them, the longer that fight goes on the harder it's gonna get until you win no need for an enrage timer on top of it even though he does). However, most bosses are just lazy designed to last 5 mins then proceed to instagib.

 

So more mechanics that punish harder the longer the fight goes on and less enrage timers.

^^ And this

[Fumanchu_Fow]

 

Look we are not noobs here. We are amongst some of the most experienced MMO players out there and trust me that we know what we are doing. If I cannot beat a boss after 100k repair bill (also who the hell conceived these repair prices btw????????? Belongs fired!)and like 15 wipes and trying everything I say one thing: This is either bugged or total nonsense design.

 

 

I'm gonna disagree and say you are a noob if you think any of the hardmode content is actually hard.

[KorrigTS]

Because the timer is completely independent of DPS. DPS is certainly a factor to completing the contest but the timer makes it the only factor that matters.

 

It lowers every encounter to the lowest common denominator of more DPS = win and we should be so far beyond accepting that.

 

And to that point - what is a reasonable time allotment? Why? What 'factor' does it serve to make the encounter better, the gear worth having the fun quotient go up? It doesn't satisfy a single worthwhile condition.

 

The timer is not independent of DPS (You even say that the DPS is certainly a factor). And no, having enrage does not simplify the fight to just 'MOAR DPS TO WIN PLOX'.

 

IF (a big IF) the thought process was as so:

Man, this fight isn't hard enough, how can we make it harder? *Lightbulb* Oh, let's put in an enrage!

 

THEN I agree with you that this would be bad design. However this isn't the case. I fully support adding more difficult mechanics for the encounters in addition to the enrage. This would be great because the current HM flash points definitely could use a difficulty increase imo.

[DarthDemens]

You simply aren't getting it. An enrage timer is nothing like you are trying to imply it is. There is nothing to it beyond a mechanic that picks a time when the fight ends regardless of other circumstances.

 

Again - you are incapable of even grasping the mechanic being discussed, you are making that painfully obvious.

 

While I'm generally on your side in opposition to enrage timers, you do know that just because the timer popped doesn't mean the fight is instantly over, right?

 

They get harder, sure, but good tactics can still allow you to finish off a fight after the enrage.

[Loendar]

The timer is not independent of DPS (You even say that the DPS is certainly a factor). And no, having enrage does not simplify the fight to just 'MOAR DPS TO WIN PLOX'.

 

IF (a big IF) the thought process was as so:

Man, this fight isn't hard enough, how can we make it harder? *Lightbulb* Oh, let's put in an enrage!

 

THEN I agree with you that this would be bad design. However this isn't the case. I fully support adding more difficult mechanics for the encounters in addition to the enrage. This would be great because the current HM flash points definitely could use a difficulty increase imo.

 

If I engage the mob and do zero DPS to it - and it has an enrage timer of 5 minutes that wipes the group. All other things considering equal (I don't die before that 5 minutes) - how is that anything other than a straight FAIL condition timer? It isn't. DPS has zero to do with the timer ticking away.

[Harower]

Because the timer is completely independent of DPS. DPS is certainly a factor to completing the contest but the timer makes it the only factor that matters.

 

It lowers every encounter to the lowest common denominator of more DPS = win and we should be so far beyond accepting that.

 

And to that point - what is a reasonable time allotment? Why? What 'factor' does it serve to make the encounter better, the gear worth having the fun quotient go up? It doesn't satisfy a single worthwhile condition.

 

Because the timer is completely independent of DPS

 

LOL WUT? This is just plain stupid. Damage per second. Use your heads here.

 

Boss hp / seconds allowed for fight = dps needed.

 

E.G 100000hp / 300(5 minutes) = 3333 dps

 

split that over say 3 dps that is 1111dps needed per player etc.

 

To say the clock has nothing to do with dps is stupid.

 

It lowers every encounter to the lowest common denominator of more DPS = win and we should be so far beyond accepting that.

 

DPS is a measurment of performance. In the persuit of performance players spend large amounts of time collecting gear.

 

The desire to obtain new gear is made entising partialy by the need for it. Thus DPS check fights are put in place

 

 

And to that point - what is a reasonable time allotment? Why? What 'factor' does it serve to make the encounter better, the gear worth having the fun quotient go up? It doesn't satisfy a single worthwhile condition.

 

The reasonable time allotment would be what is deemed needed to push the current limit gear the classes use under current patch notes.

 

Which as was discussed earlier they are getting the fight to 5% Which tells me they did a pretty dam good job at tuning the enrage.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I feel stupider being in this thread -_-

Edited February 2, 2012 by Harower

[Loendar]

LOL WUT?

 

 

 

DPS is a measurment of performance. In the persuit of performance players spend large amounts of time collecting gear.

 

The desire to obtain new gear is made entising partialy by the need for it. Thus DPS check fights are put in place

 

 

 

 

The reasonable time allotment would be what is deemed needed to push the current limit gear the classes use under current patch notes.

 

Which as was discussed earlier they are getting the fight to 5% Which tells me they did a pretty dam good job at tuning the enrage.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I feel stupider being in this thread -_-

 

You should - because you can't grasp even the most simple example.

 

It is a timer. Enrage 'timer'. It ticks and starts ticking once the mob is engaged independent of any other condition. It is a gated FAIL condition to apply an artificial restriction with no 'up side'. You can try to make it into something else but it that is the core of the mechanic.

 

I'm done debating this with you specifically - you aren't able to get even the most basic concept of what is happening.

 

Other people can see it for what it is - a lazy mechanic that gates progress based on the time from start to finish. I prefer to discuss it with those that at least understand what it is.

 

And really - even if EVERYTHING you said was accurate and applied - it STILL isn't a required mechanic. It serves zero purpose and doesn't make anyone 'better' or 'more skilled' - it makes them DO MOAR DPS.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Loendar

[Harower]

You should - because you can't grasp even the most simple example.

 

It is a timer. Enrage 'timer'. It ticks and starts ticking once the mob is engaged independent of any other condition. It is a gated FAIL condition to apply an artificial restriction with no 'up side'. You can try to make it into something else but it that is the core of the mechanic.

 

I'm done debating this with you specifically - you aren't able to get even the most basic concept of what is happening.

 

You are the guy who was already proven to speak crap earlier on? Or was that some other numbskull

 

 

You just don't give up. But that is likely due to a sorely bruised ego which is understandable as you constantly make a fool of yourself.

 

 

 

The Enrage timer is not a independent number or arbitrary in design, as it was directly tuned to correlate to needed dps before the fight even starts. This dps measurement was determined based on gear the designers want you to be wearing as well as enforcing a level of competence on the players behalf.

 

 

 

How simple minded are you? Do you truly think they went, what the hell LOL FIVE MINUTES WHY NOT.

 

 

nd really - even if EVERYTHING you said was accurate and applied - it STILL isn't a required mechanic. It serves zero purpose and doesn't make anyone 'better' or 'more skilled' - it makes them DO MOAR DPS.

 

It is a required mechanic as was already told to you enrage mechanics are in EVERY fight. It does serve a purpose and yes more performance does have a correlation to skill. Seriously are you.... you have to be a troll : /

 

I provided you with information on how enrage timers work and all the mechanics involved in

 

http://www.wowwiki.com/Enrage_(mechanic)

 

and you went and told me that wowwiki is not accurate. I'm talking to a kid here aren't I

 

 

Go read this also... srsly

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=109778

 

Go learn and stop being an embarrassment. At least the guy in this other thread knows what he is talking about and doesn't say absolute bs.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Harower

[Loendar]

You are the guy who was already proven to speak crap earlier on? Or was that some other numbskull

 

 

You just don't give up. But that is likely due to a sorely bruised ego which is understandable as you constantly make a fool of yourself.

 

 

 

The Enrage timer is not a independent number or arbitrary in design, as it was directly tuned to correlate to needed dps before the fight even starts. This dps measurement was determined based on gear the designers want you to be wearing as well as enforcing a level of competence on the players behalf.

 

 

 

How simple minded are you? Do you truly think they went, what the hell LOL FIVE MINUTES WHY NOT.

 

All of which can be done without a 'timer' at all through proper design that doesn't impose an artificial limit. You simply CANNOT get it through your skull.

 

I'm happy for you that you are content with piss-poor design and roadblocks that decide on your behalf if you can finish the content. I'm not from WoW - I expect a higher quality of design from the games I play.

 

I've played plenty of games with DPS checks that don't wipe me at timely intervals. Maybe I'm jaded to expect more from a game than to simply kill me because it went 30 seconds longer than a Dev decided it should.

 

And again - unless you can stand here and tell me that engaging the mob and doing nothing else will not result in the timer killing me at 5 minutes then your continued assertion that it isn't a timer remains false.

[Rabix]

if you're geared/competent enough, you can heal your tank through enrages if they utilize cooldowns and you max your healing

 

this isn't an instant loss button where the sky falls on your heads and instantly does 99999 damage to everyone, or the raid fight where the floor suddenly doesn't exist anymore and you all fall 20 stories to your deaths. the boss just starts hitting twice as hard.

 

a 5 minute enrage timer doesn't mean you can't win at 5:01, it just means you have a harder time staying alive after 5:00. if you can't survive the enrage damage, then you have to adjust or adapt your gear or playstyle, pretty simple.

[Harower]

All of which can be done without a 'timer' at all through proper design that doesn't impose an artificial limit. You simply CANNOT get it through your skull.

 

I'm happy for you that you are content with piss-poor design and roadblocks that decide on your behalf if you can finish the content. I'm not from WoW - I expect a higher quality of design from the games I play.

 

I've played plenty of games with DPS checks that don't wipe me at timely intervals. Maybe I'm jaded to expect more from a game than to simply kill me because it went 30 seconds longer than a Dev decided it should.

 

And again - unless you can stand here and tell me that engaging the mob and doing nothing else will not result in the timer killing me at 5 minutes then your continued assertion that it isn't a timer remains false.

 

Wrong again you interact with enrage timers all the time. They are in loads of mechanics. Such as a healer needing to spam like crazy to keep his team up is a form of enrage timer. Ie how long he can maintain a certain level of HPS IS based partialy on gear.

 

That is called a heal check fight. It involve enrage timer mechanics.

 

This one is a dps check fight

 

Your inability to detect timers is entirely on you.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Harower

[Daemondred]

Wait ... is this person actually complaining about HM FPs?

 

I think I'm at a loss for words. I found them to be entirely too easy if you ask me. HM FP's are extremely dull as the trash takes forever and isn't really "harder" than normal mode, just more HP which just takes longer to clear.

 

The bosses are all pretty much a joke too, no new mechanics, just more HP and more damage.

 

Which boss are you referring to with a 2 minute enrage timer as I can't think of a single time I've actually encountered an enrage timer in a FP. My group (admittedly, we are fairly experienced MMO players with end game experience in multiple games ...) cleared every HM FP in the game on our first run through them and we started in just blues/moddable gear from questing.

 

I seriously don't know how anyone can complain about HM FP's ...

[Loendar]

if you're geared/competent enough, you can heal your tank through enrages if they utilize cooldowns and you max your healing

 

this isn't an instant loss button where the sky falls on your heads and instantly does 99999 damage to everyone, or the raid fight where the floor suddenly doesn't exist anymore and you all fall 20 stories to your deaths. the boss just starts hitting twice as hard.

 

a 5 minute enrage timer doesn't mean you can't win at 5:01, it just means you have a harder time staying alive after 5:00. if you can't survive the enrage damage, then you have to adjust or adapt your gear or playstyle, pretty simple.

 

IF that is the case - as I've mentioned more than once, I haven't personally come against the enrage timer in this game having killed everything I set out to so far, I based it solely on what the OP experienced when hitting it and others confirming (you are one of the first to mention that it isn't a hard timer)... then I have less of an issue with it.

 

It is still lazy design.

[Daemondred]

It is still lazy design.

 

Not really. The alternative is to remove resource regeneration from healers which I don't think anyone would appreciate. Without enrage timers you could just load up on healers and tanks and slowly DOT a boss to death very safely since healers can pretty much sustain their rotations indefinitely at this point.

 

Enrage timers make sense for hard modes. I'd agree with you if they had overtuned enrage timers on normal mode content or something, but they don't. The enrage timers they have are on HARD MODE content and they are frankly still easy. I wish we had Nightmare Mode for Flashpoints so I wouldn't be so bored with them.

 

DPS just need to stop being bad.

[Harower]

I love how this guy has been debunked over a dozen times and just ignores it to continue his blind one track mind rant lol.

 

 

 

That is pretty special lol.

[Loendar]

I love how this guy has been debunked over a dozen times and just ignores it to continue his blind one track mind rant lol.

 

 

 

That is pretty special lol.

 

Hardly 'debunked' and I'm hardly alone in my opinion of the mechanic. I am just the only one still here beating my head against the wall in the vain attempt to leverage strats over DO MORE DPS.

 

I'm sorry that you can't see that.