Hardmode bosses need mechanics not unfairness

[chosenWan]

if you can't beat an enrage timer that means you are under geared or healer needs to dps more.

 

cleared 7/7 HM with pugs...

 

gear progression is as follows

 

Belsavis and Ilum dailies > to gear up for Normal Ops and HM Flashpoints > HM Ops > NMM Ops

 

cleared all HM without barely any Columi, mostly Champion PvP gear

Edited February 3, 2012 by chosenWan

[Loendar]

if you can't beat an enrage timer that means you are under geared or healer needs to dps more.

 

cleared 7/7 HM with pugs...

 

gear progression is as follows

 

Belsavis and Ilum dailies > to gear up for Normal Ops and HM Flashpoints > HM Ops > NMM Ops

 

cleared all HM without barely any Columi, mostly Champion PvP gear

 

This is factually inaccurate. You can be powering through the encounter and get the mob to 1 percent health showing that you are perfectly capable of killing the encounter only to have the timer kick in and double the difficulty (as one example). It has zero to do with being able to meet the DPS requirements and everything to do with meeting the 'timing' that was picked for whatever reason.

 

At this point I have stated my piece over and over and those of you from WoW (I assume) that are incapable of seeing beyond that game dynamic can keep espousing how this mechanic actually accomplishes something outside of what it actually does.

Edited February 3, 2012 by Loendar

[Daovin]

This is factually inaccurate. You can be powering through the encounter and get the mob to 1 percent health showing that you are perfectly capable of killing the encounter only to have the timer kick in and double the difficulty (as one example). It has zero to do with being able to meet the DPS requirements and everything to do with meeting the 'timing' that was picked for whatever reason.

 

At this point I have stated my piece over and over and those of you from WoW (I assume) that are incapable of seeing beyond that game dynamic can keep espousing how this mechanic actually accomplishes something outside of what it actually does.

 

In WoW, and other such fantasy MMOs, healers don't have nigh-unlimited resources.

 

Enrages exist because healers don't go OOM in this game, meaning they have to put the pressure on another aspect of PVE, in this case DPS.

[Merraith]

Your assertion would hold true if the enrage timer was something you could address or counter because you knew it was coming outside of MOAR DPS

 

This is where you lose everyone. "MOAR DPS" isn't just OMG NEED MORE GEAR NO STRAT. You can debuff the mob, use abilities in a different order, time debuff to coincide with phases during the fight when you can push damage. If you cannot understand these mmo basics, I can't help you. It's the exact same thing as using defensive abilities to reduce big hits. You always know the enrage timer is coming, thus you know you need to sometimes change your strategy and how you dps based on your previous attempts to improve efficiency.

 

The enrage timer isn't a strat to overcome

 

Yes, it is. Apparently it's just far too complicated for some people to figure out. They assume it's QQ time because they don't have enough gear or enough raid spots for dps classes, and don't think of any strategy to improve their dps on individual and raid wide levels.

 

It doesn't matter what you have done up until that point

 

Actually...EVERYTHING you've done up until that point matters. That is the point.

 

And until someone can address how it is possible that other MMO's that have been around forever with dynamic content (EQ1)

 

Ah yes...EQ. Face a mob into a corner and survive forever with cleric bot toons hitting their CHeal key. Dynamic indeed.

 

It's not just a "hard" button. Everything you do up until (and after) enrage matters. But if you can't understand that, we might as well "agree to disagree".

[Loendar]

This is where you lose everyone. "MOAR DPS" isn't just OMG NEED MORE GEAR NO STRAT. You can debuff the mob, use abilities in a different order, time debuff to coincide with phases during the fight when you can push damage. If you cannot understand these mmo basics, I can't help you. It's the exact same thing as using defensive abilities to reduce big hits. You always know the enrage timer is coming, thus you know you need to sometimes change your strategy and how you dps based on your previous attempts to improve efficiency.

.

 

You haven't read a thing I've stated if you can say that I haven't been talking about DPS rotations, abilities, etc. all along. If you are going to misrepresent even the must basic items that I've been discussing then, yes, we can agree to disagree.

[Loendar]

In WoW, and other such fantasy MMOs, healers don't have nigh-unlimited resources.

 

Enrages exist because healers don't go OOM in this game, meaning they have to put the pressure on another aspect of PVE, in this case DPS.

 

How, exactly, does a healer healing unlimited allow you to complete the encounter if you can't kill it? I'm truly curious.

 

Yes - resource management is somewhat unique in this game in that you keep generating it yourself ad infinitum. However - the encounter should be designed with that in mind and there is nothing in the unlimited resource allocation that is an 'I win' if you can't accomplish the other elements of the battle as well.

 

Healing forever does not win the encounter. It takes everyone doing what they are supposed to do and the enrage timer does nothing to facilitate that happening. It just sets s predetermined 'end' for when you are no longer able to try.

 

You are all welcome to keep your blinders on and feel that WoW is the 'only way' because that is all you understand. I'm not going to convince you that other games are perfectly capable of doing without this mechanic and are far more rewarding - you would have to be willing to try that yourself and you simply aren't.

 

WoW truly has brought MMO's to the masses with all the inherent failings that come along with that.

Edited February 3, 2012 by Loendar

[BALORINA]

Your assertion would hold true if the enrage timer was something you could address or counter because you knew it was coming outside of MOAR DPS - which is clearly what all of you on the side of the timer concept keep spouting. If it were an ability you could interrupt (your big hit) or something you could avoid (hide behind something) then you are placing the onus on the player to figure out the strat.

 

The enrage timer isn't a strat to overcome, it is a hard timer. Something 'bad' happens now. It doesn't matter what you have done up until that point and how well you execute once that timer hits and changes the fight. You may not agree that doubling the DPS and healing that a mob gets in a one second interval changes the dynamics of the fight, but I do.

 

I'm not opposed to timers for events to occur (including the enrage one) if it is something that makes sense in the context of the fight (walls are falling around you, hurry up!) but adding it to every encounter simply because is lazy.

 

And until someone can address how it is possible that other MMO's that have been around forever with dynamic content (EQ1, EQ2, etc) are able to survive without this 'required' mechanic then the concept that it has to exist to fix the things you keep saying is fundamentally flawed. I will agree it is the easiest/laziest way to fix it - but you can't even concede that.

 

I would recommend that everyone who feels this is a required mechanic go fire up a toon on EQ2 (free to play) and level high enough to raid just about anything. There ARE fights where this mechanic exists, don't get me wrong, but they are few and far between. They instead have the players rely on their abilities and skill at grasping the strats to win instead of who DPS's more. It's about time that WoW stop being held up as the 'right way' if this is what it produces.

 

The difference in those games was the enrage was your healer's mana bar. They also had the double factor of not being instanced (EQ1 at least). Server factoring comes into play, if there are 100 instances open and they are all going to be around for 10 hours while the tank and four healers kill his mob... you need larger instance servers.

 

You are crying that if you can move a boss' health bar 1% every 10 minutes you should be given 16 hours to kill the boss. That's just asinine and not good design. Enrage timers are designed to a) push dps to do more than hit 111111111 and b) ensure the people killing it are geared enough to enjoy the loot from said mob. I'm sorry this game is hard for you, I hear Zynga has a good suite of material that could be better for you?

[Loendar]

The difference in those games was the enrage was your healer's mana bar. They also had the double factor of not being instanced (EQ1 at least). Server factoring comes into play, if there are 100 instances open and they are all going to be around for 10 hours while the tank and four healers kill his mob... you need larger instance servers.

 

You are crying that if you can move a boss' health bar 1% every 10 minutes you should be given 16 hours to kill the boss. That's just asinine and not good design. Enrage timers are designed to a) push dps to do more than hit 111111111 and b) ensure the people killing it are geared enough to enjoy the loot from said mob. I'm sorry this game is hard for you, I hear Zynga has a good suite of material that could be better for you?

 

Yes - you are 100 percent correct and very astute. I'm not even having the problem the OP is having but I'm not blind enough to ignore that it exists and see it for what it is.

 

You are now going to use server resources as yet another crutch to support a bad mechanic and I'll admit I didn't see that one coming.

 

Nobody would be wasting 16 hours on an encounter that they aren't making any progress on. It is that you ARE making progress and are stopped for not reason. You might want to answer the door - reality is stopping by to slap you upside the head.

 

I personally thought I had already seen the most insane justifications for this mechanic previously in the thread but this is a whole new level. I've already debunked numerous times how the enrage timer doesn't force anyone to do jack and I'm not going to do it again.

Edited February 3, 2012 by Loendar

[Daovin]

 

Healing forever does not win the encounter.

 

 

but if there were no enrages, it would.

[Loendar]

but if there were no enrages, it would.

 

Without DPS doing their job? Without the tank holding aggro? With whatever actual 'strats' the encounter requires taking place? Those are the elements that matter. Enrage does nothing to force those to happen.

 

You CANNOT heal something to death. No matter how many times you tell me you can.

[PessimiStick]

Without DPS doing their job? Without the tank holding aggro? With whatever actual 'strats' the encounter requires taking place? Those are the elements that matter. Enrage does nothing to force those to happen.

 

You CANNOT heal something to death. No matter how many times you tell me you can.

If your tank is a good player, and a couple of your healers are good players, you can essentially defeat ANY encounter that doesn't have an enrage. Removing responsibility from 5-13 players in the raid is bad game design. Everyone should be accountable. Enrage timers ensure that DPS are accountable.

 

Fullstop.

[BALORINA]

Without DPS doing their job? Without the tank holding aggro? With whatever actual 'strats' the encounter requires taking place? Those are the elements that matter. Enrage does nothing to force those to happen.

 

You CANNOT heal something to death. No matter how many times you tell me you can.

 

Tanking requires doing damage, tanks do not have basic abilities that do NOT do damage. This means, yes, you can "heal a mob to death" by the tank doing nothing but putting his basic debuffs (accuracy and damage) up every 15 seconds.

[Loendar]

If your tank is a good player, and a couple of your healers are good players, you can essentially defeat ANY encounter that doesn't have an enrage. Removing responsibility from 5-13 players in the raid is bad game design. Everyone should be accountable. Enrage timers ensure that DPS are accountable.

 

Fullstop.

 

NOT if the encounter is built to require a DPS threshold which they ALL are. You people keep putting up these imaginary battles that can be healed to completion that don't exist in any game that I'm aware of as justification for this stupid mechanic.

 

Give me ONE real example of a fight where you can forgo doing the DPS needed to lower the mobs health and still win. Just one - I'll wait. It can even come from WoW.

 

NOBODY is saying that everyone should be able to win every encounter. But everyone should be ALLOWED to engage the encounter and win if they can meet the core requirements WITHOUT the system deciding to change the rules at the five minute mark.

 

Get this through: DPS, check. HPS, check. Strat, check! (Win!) and NOT DPS, check. HPS, check. Strat, check! 5 minutes - BOOM!

 

I am officially done here. The vast majority of your arguing with me can't even grasp the basic concept of what is being discussed because you think it has to exist despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

[BALORINA]

NOT if the encounter is built to require a DPS threshold which they ALL are. You people keep putting up these imaginary battles that can be healed to completion that don't exist in any game that I'm aware of as justification for this stupid mechanic.

 

Give me ONE real example of a fight where you can forgo doing the DPS needed to lower the mobs health and still win. Just one - I'll wait. It can even come from WoW.

 

NOBODY is saying that everyone should be able to win every encounter. But everyone should be ALLOWED to engage the encounter and win if they can meet the core requirements WITHOUT the system deciding to change the rules at the five minute mark.

 

Get this through: DPS, check. HPS, check. Strat, check! (Win!) and NOT DPS, check. HPS, check. Strat, check! 5 minutes - BOOM!

 

I am officially done here. The vast majority of your arguing with me can't even grasp the basic concept of what is being discussed because you think it has to exist despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

 

You are saying:

Dps, fail... DON'T CARE

[Loendar]

Tanking requires doing damage, tanks do not have basic abilities that do NOT do damage. This means, yes, you can "heal a mob to death" by the tank doing nothing but putting his basic debuffs (accuracy and damage) up every 15 seconds.

 

Homework assignment: Go back and read what I've written. Understand it. Come back.

[Loendar]

You are saying:

Dps, fail... DON'T CARE

 

Excellent. We have made progress. You are incapable of seeing past your limited experience in MMO's and that makes you happy with the status quo.

 

Understood. I shall discount your 'informed' opinion.

[BALORINA]

Homework assignment: Go back and read what I've written. Understand it. Come back.

 

I did read what you said, you said fights should not have a magical timer that kicks in at n-minutes that wipes the raid. This means you do not support enrages. When you remove enrages you remove the dps requirement PERIOD.

 

Your "alternate" enrages only shift the crying done. Boss heals more than your dps can damage (which is basically a reverse enrage), people are STILL going to cry. Some arbitary mechanic kicks in that kills you... guess what, this is called an ENRAGE. Whether it be the room filling up with fire, your tank getting 99 stacks of a debuff, or your healer getting mana burned to death.

 

The only thing you are arguing is full support of a group doing 1% damage every 2 hours on a fight that previously had a two minute enrage being viable.

[BALORINA]

Excellent. We have made progress. You are incapable of seeing past your limited experience in MMO's and that makes you happy with the status quo.

 

Understood. I shall discount your 'informed' opinion.

 

I've played EVERY MMO that has come out since Shadows of Yserbius and Neverwinter Nights. I've probably been playing these games before you were born.

[Xaearth]

Just some food for thought here...

 

Don't all the dps classes have buttons that don't do dps? You know, fancy things that help the group in other ways?

 

Tanks and healers get to weave in their fancy buttons between their roles, why not the dps?

 

Just you wait... might not be happening yet, but once those enrages start getting tighter...

 

"YOU ******* MORON MARAUDER - Why the **** you use predation? WE DON'T NEED NO ************* MOVE SPEED! WE NEED MOAR DEEPS! WE FAIL BECAUSE U NO SPAM BERSERK!"

 

[Merraith]

You haven't read a thing I've stated if you can say that I haven't been talking about DPS rotations, abilities, etc. all along. If you are going to misrepresent even the must basic items that I've been discussing then, yes, we can agree to disagree.

 

As soon as you type MOAR DPS, and claim nothing you do before enrage hits matters, everything else you say loses a lot of meaning. That's evidence of lazy players, not lazy design.

[Loendar]

I've played EVERY MMO that has come out since Shadows of Yserbius and Neverwinter Nights. I've probably been playing these games before you were born.

 

I always enjoy people puffing up their resume on a forum but I (sadly) far pre-date the games you describe. MUD's and Gemstone II - I actually used to work for a pay-to-play game designing content before that (if we want to compare resumes).

 

As I said before - other products for more complicated that WoW exist in the world and don't use an enrage timer on every encounter to force their player base to conform. That fact can't even be disputed.

 

What some of you label as another enrage timer are thresholds and there is no 'timer' element to them at all. Just because you lump them together doesn't make it the same mechanic.

 

Nobody has been able/willing to explain how raids in other games can possibly function if the mechanic has to exist. I've shown plenty of ways how it doesn't have to exist and the world of MMO's supports me and yet here we are.

 

I really am done with this thread. I don't think everyone should beat every encounter - that was never even on the topic. I KNOW there are better ways to design content than an enrage timer because I play those games every week. I didn't/don't play WoW and this thread have proven to me how wise that choice has been made.

Edited February 3, 2012 by Loendar

[Loendar]

As soon as you type MOAR DPS, and claim nothing you do before enrage hits matters, everything else you say loses a lot of meaning. That's evidence of lazy players, not lazy design.

 

Why do I bother?

 

If you understood the statement you are attempting to quote you would see that I said nothing you do will stop the timer from happening if it arrives. You could do DPS or not do DPS prior to that five minute interval and the fight will change.

Edited February 3, 2012 by Loendar

[Merraith]

Why do I bother?

 

If you understood the statement you are attempting to quote you would see that I said nothing you do will stop the timer from happening if it arrives. You could do DPS or not do DPS prior to that five minute interval and the fight will change.

 

You could dps or not do dps prior to the five minute interval and the fight will change? I think you're a little burned out on this thread going back and forth (couldn't even read through all of it just a lot of back and forth).

 

My point is using your 5 minute example...you had 300 seconds to do something about it. On most of the fights, you can probably even get those extra 10 seconds (or more) to still do something about it.

 

If you don't heal someone before the raid is about to take AoE damage, they could die. You have a much shorter window here than 300 seconds to do this, and you should, it's just one heal. For a 5 minute enrage timer, you have 300 seconds to do something about it.

 

"Nothing you do will stop the timer from happening if it arrives." The point of the mechanic is to have it not arrive, OR to pro it up and pull out those epic kills even a short period of time AFTER it does (sometimes not so short, when it's just a 200% increase in damage you can drag some of the fights out quite awhile). I don't want my games to only require people to survive to win. Surviving is only part of the fight.

[IThrowRocks]

Ok lets get rid of enrage timers.

 

New group comp

 

1 tank

7 healers

 

Raid time = don't expenct to leave anytime soon

 

 

People don't like enrage becaues it forces dps to be good. Most dps like to derp and be bad and enrage timers hitting isn't a bad mechanic, but one that directly shows that the dps DID NOT DO THEIR JOB.

[BALORINA]

I always enjoy people puffing up their resume on a forum but I (sadly) far pre-date the games you describe. MUD's and Gemstone II - I actually used to work for a pay-to-play game designing content before that (if we want to compare resumes).

 

As I said before - other products for more complicated that WoW exist in the world and don't use an enrage timer on every encounter to force their player base to conform. That fact can't even be disputed.

 

What some of you label as another enrage timer are thresholds and there is no 'timer' element to them at all. Just because you lump them together doesn't make it the same mechanic.

 

Nobody has been able/willing to explain how raids in other games can possibly function if the mechanic has to exist. I've shown plenty of ways how it doesn't have to exist and the world of MMO's supports me and yet here we are.

 

I really am done with this thread. I don't think everyone should beat every encounter - that was never even on the topic. I KNOW there are better ways to design content than an enrage timer because I play those games every week. I didn't/don't play WoW and this thread have proven to me how wise that choice has been made.

 

Yes because MUDs surely had raid encounters, I didn't even include them because they are in no way the same as the current genre of MMO.

 

Okay so let's go how raids in EQ1 functioned.

The zones weren't instanced, so you could bring EVERYONE you wanted to. Bosses did not have combat pulses, so you could also get out of combat. So healing in these type of games (was a healer rotation of meditating, blowing your mana, backing up and regenning while someone else took your place. If you were an important healer like a paladin, you would die and get rezzed by a necromancer. Again, the dps requirement wasn't the factor the HEALING factor was. Why does your brain not grasp in today's games this is NOT the case. In today's game healing is fairly UNLIMITED so they can concentrate on other aspects of the fight.

 

But this type of gaming model seems fun to you?