Yfelsung Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 (edited) Preface: At one point I argued that defensive stats weren't as worthless as people were claiming in PvP. After seeing some of the fantastic videos and posts made by others breaking down the issue, I've changed my stance and now agree that defensive stats are largely underwhelming in PvP. I'd like to get some ideas on my Immortal PvP spec, and also maybe a discussion on the nature of Immortal PvP, so here we go. http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#101frMfzRbkuRZhMRZM.1 This is the spec I have been running since last night in 50 PvP. I have been getting 6 medals a match at least and I have ZERO PvP gear as of posting this. I am geared in craftable blue damage gear made using Synthweaving along with assorted green junk in relic, implant and ear slots with a pretty lackluster lightsaber set up. I think 6 medals a game in this gear is pretty decent. Spec Rationale You'll notice I skipped pretty much every defensive talent available related to shielding/parrying/deflecting. This is what I mean by cutting the fat. As has been mentioned on most tank class forums, the stats are situational at best. I focused on reducing cooldowns on as many abilities as I could, especially CC (Hence Thrown Gauntlet and Ravager) Playstyle Pretty straight forward tank play here. I try to keep my guard up on whoever is being focused, I keep AoE taunt up as much as possible and taunt single targets that appear to be doing the most damage. Offensively I play as a "Disruptor" focusing on either a) locking down healers with my spell counter and CC or b) pushing damage off our squishies. I also obviously try to sunder the armor off just about everything in sight. My damage also isn't totally pitiful due to using DPS oriented gear, though I do go for heavy Endurance items when available, even if they may have a bad secondary stat. Discussion Any tips, questions, or ridicule you want to throw my way? Any good stuff I will try to repost in this area so that future Immortal PvPers can see it. Edited February 1, 2012 by Yfelsung Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shendaar Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 You should drop Crash. It doesn't do really do anything but build resolve on your target. You may want to take a look at the thread linked below. Should have some good info for you. http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=208529 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yfelsung Posted February 1, 2012 Author Share Posted February 1, 2012 I'll check out the thread, but I disagree with a few of his Immortal talent choices, such as the 6% extra defense. It's mostly wasted in PvP against popular PvP specs of other classes due to their lack of reliance on "weapon damage" attacks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shendaar Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Well, it's not like you really have anything better to spec into anyway. Quake is pretty crappy too and Lash Out is not needed really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yfelsung Posted February 1, 2012 Author Share Posted February 1, 2012 Well, it's not like you really have anything better to spec into anyway. Quake is pretty crappy too and Lash Out is not needed really. True, they're all lackluster talents, but quake and lash out are at least useful against all targets, while the defense is only useful against a very small number of abilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redial Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 (edited) I have been getting 6 medals a match at least and I have ZERO PvP gear as of posting this. sorry to go OT a little bit. But this is exactly why i still run rage even when i HATE it. I have not had any pvp gear, although i did get lucky and pick up 3 peices yesterday. But if i am undergeared and i am not going to get any of the big boy medals (300k dmg mitigated or w.e) how could i run anything besides rage I get around 6 medals with most specs as well, but with rage that turns into 8-9 easy medlas. The 2.5 dmg medal i can get as rage in soresu. I can get all the defense medals up to 10k mitigated without dying in the first minute of the fight, and then switch to shi-cho if i want. I can get the 75k damage medal and the KB medal easily by putting a 4k smash on 5 people at once a few times a fight. Once i get all those i can just go guard something to get the defenders if i want. As immortal i am getting all the same medals -2 for the 2.5k and probably the kb and the 75k dmg as well (hey i said i was undergeared, and i also tend to go for objectives, defending instead of farming dmg) Edited February 2, 2012 by Redial Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yfelsung Posted February 1, 2012 Author Share Posted February 1, 2012 The only problem with Rage is that you're sort of a non-factor for winning the match. You do great numbers, and get lots of medals, but ultimately it's a selfish spec that provides little to the team. I also miss the survivability and control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redial Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 The only problem with Rage is that you're sort of a non-factor for winning the match. i agree 100%. I hate the spec. I hate playing it. I am embarrassed when i do any sort of pve but for how undergeared i am, i feel like a non factor in everything except huttball (i miss unstoppable), so until i get gear i figure i might as well try and get gear as quickly as possible so i can become relevant. I guess i should farm HMs to get geared more quickly and that would help supplement me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scinald Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 The only problem with Rage is that you're sort of a non-factor for winning the match. You do great numbers, and get lots of medals, but ultimately it's a selfish spec that provides little to the team. I also miss the survivability and control. Do nothing? Really? Dead enemies can't hurt you or your teammates. Nothing against people who want to tanky tank (or try in the current state of things), but DPS is about the most effective thing you can do in PvP as a Juggernaut right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jandabrock Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 (edited) You are missing the point of a "tanky tank" Jugg. Any Jugg, regardless of spec, should be using mitigation abilities for your teammates (taunts, Intercede), guards when absolutely necessary (can turn the tide of a match), and CC abilities all over the place. This is why charge has a snare & interrupt, every Jugg has intercede, Force Push resets the cooldown of Charge, Charge has a low cooldown to begin with... Etc... Every Jugg should have 10-20k protection points a game, no less than 5k. If you see a Juggernaut without any protection, that fool doesn't know how to play their class. The point of a Jugg isn't about the pew pew, it's about the CC, defense, AND pew pew. In my role as a Jugg, I play a DPS Tank (Immortal/Rage --- 13/9/19) combo and do fairly well at all of the above. I can do enough CC, Protection, and Damage to pull in 6-8 medals a game (in only 1 piece of Champ gear (terrible luck)), but the real benefit is winning the match because I played a key role in the victory. Sure, if you want to kill things and do only that, be my guest, it's your money and account... but if you truly want to help your team, do more than just pew pew. Though, don't get me wrong, DPS has its value, like the above poster said... dead enemies are the greatest mitigation, but you also need to mitigate WHILE killing. It's possible, it just takes more skill. It's easy to differentiate a Juggernaut that is well played from one that isn't. As well as one that is after medals, and one that is after helping the team. When I am doing 150k dps and 75k Protection as a solo queue tank in 1 piece of champ gear, I am working it. It's not easy doing 150k DPS in Soresu, let alone simultaneously mitigating 75k damage. So far, my best game was 185k dmg, and 110k prot. Voidstar. Tough match, but I did fairly well. Edited February 1, 2012 by jandabrock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schwarzwald Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 (edited) I'll check out the thread, but I disagree with a few of his Immortal talent choices, such as the 6% extra defense. It's mostly wasted in PvP against popular PvP specs of other classes due to their lack of reliance on "weapon damage" attacks. There isn't much else you can put the points into. The rage free Retaliates are not really worth the 2 points spent into it because I am usually never rage starved, so having points in that seems a bit redundant. Also remember, quake effects targets other then yourself, which feeds into the notion of group support role. The reason why Immortal is better then any other Spec (in my opinionated reasoning) is for the reason in that it allows you to generate rage and be active while in Soresu. If you are Rage or Vengeance, hopping into Soresu effectively shuts down any form of rage production, and if you are not producing rage, you are better off dead. Edited February 1, 2012 by Schwarzwald Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scinald Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 I really do know the value of a Tanky tank. I played two high-level tanks in Warhammer Online (from which they borrowed most of the tank mechanics) for three years. The state of PvP Tanks in this game is not nearly as good (as in effective) as it is in WAR. They will probably improve it soon. At the very least you do get credit for protection in WZs which encourages good habits. However, that said, the tanking tools (especially for Juggs) are relatively limited at this point and we are still too easy to squish and have no special role as the kings of CC and battlefield control i.e. other non-tank ACs have as much or more CC than we do. I wanted to play a tanky tank. That is why I rolled Juggernaut instead of going Marauder. But it became readily apparent to me early on that DPS is king atm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jandabrock Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 IronBreaker here, so I get where you're coming from, but I find the mechanics work fine in this game. I don't have a serious issue, so anything they do to raise it, will just benefit me later I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcjoker Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Lash out is stupid when your defense is at 5%. That's why you would want guard stance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khabarach Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 (edited) True, they're all lackluster talents, but quake and lash out are at least useful against all targets, while the defense is only useful against a very small number of abilities.Actually, neither are useful against all targets, both are just as limited as Defense. Quake reduces accuracy. Accuracy is only used in the combat rolls for melee and ranged attacks and not force or tech attacks. In other words, it suffers from exactly the same issues that the Defense stat does. Lash Out requires Retaliation to proc. Retaliation only procs in PvP if you sucessfully Dodge, Parry, Deflect, Resist an attack. Again, this can only happen to melee and ranged attacks and not force or tech. The same again applies to the point you have in Revenge. Overall though, as mentioned the major problem with the design of Immortal tree for PvP is that 14 of the 40 points available in the tree are based around Defense/Shield. It's impossible to avoid picking up at least some of these if you want to progress up the tree, despite their questionable value. Edited February 2, 2012 by Khabarach Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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