Raze nerf !

[manucake]

So Bioware secretly changed the Raze talent ,

It now does not proc on melee crits only but you need lightning charge discharge effect on the target before and melee hits have a 33% to make it proc with an inner CD of 7.5 sec

 

i guess for a pure madness build it does not matter that much but this KILLS hybrid builds .

 

i used this build

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#200MIMozZhGbMzZf0cRr0z.1

12/13/16

 

which was really fun in pvp and its just been nerfed , please someone explain me this and why do we deserve this , our class is crap anyway so we get this extra nerf and why put it secretly in the patch and not let us know before !? this kind of sutff really makes me want to quit

[sjeg]

If this is true then my 23/2/16 build I use is pretty much dead now. It would be beyond stupid to nerf the assassin class, which is on the lower receiving end in pvp anyway.

 

Can someone comfirm this?

Edited February 1, 2012 by sjeg

[dotNex]

I am confirming this. I changed to a 31/0/10 tanking build almost 2 weeks ago but this just kills the darkness/madness hybrid which is quite fun for leveling. I really want to know who is responsible for the talents in this game, they are simply terrible. I have to invest several points into useless ones in order to reach a higher tier, there is basically no variety in the builds (there is 1 optimal for tanking, everything else is terrible right now).

 

Really, Bioware? Retarded. Warn me if you wish but this is the sad truth.

[Tamernator]

They are killing hybrids becuz of noobs crying about OPness , lets be honest, there are guys with low intelect and high intelect and the more freedom in builds there are the more low intelect ones fail and suffer. To make that distance and difference , between low intelect and high intelect , shorter they kill hybrids and make no freedom. Why ? Becuz this way the skilled player wont kill the noob (equal equiped) with more than 50% HP left causing noob think his class is UP and skilled players one is OP and game is sux causing he cry on the forums.

 

Becuz of cookie cutter spec , the skilled plyaer wont win with much HP left and noob most of the time will agree its L2P issue and not imbalance .

 

Less field for mistakes = less difference between HP pools going down in PVP.

 

With other words you can be very smart and your IQ can be over the TOP but Devs do not want you be able to use it in their game , to not make noobs dissapointed and take their money every month. 70% of players got low IQ so its more important for bussines to make noobs satisfied.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Tamernator

[Nethershadow]

Does anyone actually take a quick scan of the forum they are posting in before they just create another thread about a topic already being discussed???

 

Seriously, open your eyes man.

 

This isnt really a nerf, and if you were not a tank running in DC to begin with you were doing it wrong. It was obvious from the getgo what charge stances were meant for what talent tree.

[Sabbathius]

This isnt really a nerf, and if you were not a tank running in DC to begin with you were doing it wrong.

 

I have to chuckle at this. A kid gets a new toy. A kid plays with a toy, perhaps not the way the manufacturer intended, but he's having a blast. The manufacturer comes in and messes around with the toy until the kid can't play with it the way he wanted, because that's not how it was intended to be played with. Doesn't matter that the kid was having fun.

 

Bioware - if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Fix what IS broke. Like our passive talent, Assassin's Training. Or is that too obvious for you?

[Nethershadow]

I have to chuckle at this. A kid gets a new toy. A kid plays with a toy, perhaps not the way the manufacturer intended, but he's having a blast. The manufacturer comes in and messes around with the toy until the kid can't play with it the way he wanted, because that's not how it was intended to be played with. Doesn't matter that the kid was having fun.

 

Bioware - if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Fix what IS broke. Like our passive talent, Assassin's Training. Or is that too obvious for you?

 

Good annalogy.

 

But the class was designed with the 3 charge stances, and really only DC was being used for everything. So to me that says the other two charges or trees were broken and now they are fixing it. If you are dps, you should not be ´as survivable´ or even close to that of a true tank.

 

btw i love Madness and i like these changes.

[Verphix]

Yea, you can look at it as a nerf to your hybrid spec OR you could look at it as a buff to madness! Seeing how it no longer relies on crit to proc its an increased chance to proc, not to mention it just says melee attacks and no longer thrash dependent. I mean honestly, you know if they didn't add that requirement it would have been a buff and forced people to be hybrids. i just hope they do more to the deception tree then just limit induction.

[jkcheng]

So Bioware secretly changed the Raze talent ,

It now does not proc on melee crits only but you need lightning charge discharge effect on the target before and melee hits have a 33% to make it proc with an inner CD of 7.5 sec

 

i guess for a pure madness build it does not matter that much but this KILLS hybrid builds .

 

i used this build

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#200MIMozZhGbMzZf0cRr0z.1

12/13/16

 

which was really fun in pvp and its just been nerfed , please someone explain me this and why do we deserve this , our class is crap anyway so we get this extra nerf and why put it secretly in the patch and not let us know before !? this kind of sutff really makes me want to quit

 

Bioware has stated they don't want Hybrid builds, and they've set out to make the current Hybrid builds non-viable through these changes. The 0/13/28 build was effectively killed off with the Induction now requires Surging Charge change.

 

Keep in mind though Raze itself is not nerfed. While it does now require Lightning Charge's Discharge to be active, it no longer requires a crit melee hit to proc. Any melee hit when target is effected by Discharge has a 33% chance to proc Raze.

[Valkenheineken]

Calm down guys - testing means more than logging on and looking at your talent tree.

 

Patch 1.1 changed a bunch of tooltip descriptions to be inaccurate. The biggest culprits are Wither (says it procs Harnessed Shadows - it doesn't), Energize (procs off of use, not damage, so chance is lower than the new tooltip states, plus assassinate can't proc it), and Raze (procs of critical hits, not off of any hit with discharge applied).

 

The current theory is that 1.1 accidentally rolled back the tooltips to what they were at some point in the beta or something. The changes described have not been implemented, so don't throw out the hybrid yet.

 

Shadows have known about this since 1.1 came out - not sure why you guys aren't noticing until now.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Valkenheineken

[jkcheng]

Calm down guys - testing means more than logging on and looking at your talent tree.

 

Patch 1.1 changed a bunch of tooltip descriptions to be inaccurate. The biggest culprits are Wither (says it procs Harnessed Shadows - it doesn't), Energize (procs off of use, not damage, so chance is lower than the new tooltip states, plus assassinate can't proc it), and Raze (procs of critical hits, not off of any hit with discharge applied).

 

The current theory is that 1.1 accidentally rolled back the tooltips to what they were at some point in the beta or something. The changes described have not been implemented, so don't throw out the hybrid yet.

 

Shadows have known about this since 1.1 came out - not sure why you guys aren't noticing until now.

 

These are being looked at as "changes to be made". We're aware they are not currently implemented. I don't believe the tooltip ever said what it now says back in beta. During beta Raze had 11% chance to proc of melee crits.

 

We all (at least most of us) know the changes aren't implemented yet, but rather than believing it's a mistake on the tooltips, we seem them as upcoming changes.

[Sabbathius]

But the class was designed with the 3 charge stances, and really only DC was being used for everything. So to me that says the other two charges or trees were broken and now they are fixing it. If you are dps, you should not be ´as survivable´ or even close to that of a true tank.

 

My question is - why us?!

 

Out of 8 classes, 5 are designed around stances, same as us.

 

Warriors - stances.

Bounty Hunters - cylinders.

 

The three classes that escape are Sorcerers (well, duh, nothing ever touches them, probably get buffed next patch) and Imperial Agents. Though Snipers have Cover, which might be considered as sort of a stance, but not really.

 

And out of 5 classes, WE are the ones getting the nerfs to our hybrids?

 

I mean, I have a Powertech. Powertechs have SILLY powerful hybrid builds, like Carolina Parakeet. Actually it's a mirror of Sin Darkness/Madness spec. You go Shieldtech up to jet jump, and up Pyro to prototype cylinders, and end up with great mobility, great defenses and very good damage. But are they having their tooltips changed? Nope. Not that I know of.

 

So why us? Are we actually considered to be overpowered by the devs?

 

Really wish they would talk to us. The silence lately has been deafening. Unless of course you want to talk about irrelevant crap like the color of the lighstaber crystals.

[jkcheng]

My question is - why us?!

 

Out of 8 classes, 5 are designed around stances, same as us.

 

Warriors - stances.

Bounty Hunters - cylinders.

 

The three classes that escape are Sorcerers (well, duh, nothing ever touches them, probably get buffed next patch) and Imperial Agents. Though Snipers have Cover, which might be considered as sort of a stance, but not really.

 

And out of 5 classes, WE are the ones getting the nerfs to our hybrids?

 

I mean, I have a Powertech. Powertechs have SILLY powerful hybrid builds, like Carolina Parakeet. Actually it's a mirror of Sin Darkness/Madness spec. You go Shieldtech up to jet jump, and up Pyro to prototype cylinders, and end up with great mobility, great defenses and very good damage. But are they having their tooltips changed? Nope. Not that I know of.

 

So why us? Are we actually considered to be overpowered by the devs?

 

Really wish they would talk to us. The silence lately has been deafening. Unless of course you want to talk about irrelevant crap like the color of the lighstaber crystals.

 

Maybe they just haven't figured out what to do with the other classes to remove the Hybrid builds. Have you checked tooltips on your Powertech lately?

[Wind_Chaser]

Bioware has stated they don't want Hybrid builds, and they've set out to make the current Hybrid builds non-viable through these changes. The 0/13/28 build was effectively killed off with the Induction now requires Surging Charge change.

 

Keep in mind though Raze itself is not nerfed. While it does now require Lightning Charge's Discharge to be active, it no longer requires a crit melee hit to proc. Any melee hit when target is effected by Discharge has a 33% chance to proc Raze.

 

Source/link stating the BioWare thinks Hybrids are the devil? All that I recall them saying is that Hybrids are hard to balance.

[pinkfreudHC]

The 28/13 hybrid build is still perfectly viable. The build uses Lightning Charge anyway, so all this "nerf" does is diminish the RNG proc mechanic. Lightning Charge's Discharge is 18 seconds, so you will essentially be guaranteed two Crushing Darknesses per Discharge, occasionally three due to the DoT and internal cooldowns not matching up exactly.

[Valkenheineken]

These are being looked at as "changes to be made". We're aware they are not currently implemented. I don't believe the tooltip ever said what it now says back in beta. During beta Raze had 11% chance to proc of melee crits.

 

We all (at least most of us) know the changes aren't implemented yet, but rather than believing it's a mistake on the tooltips, we seem them as upcoming changes.

 

Source?

 

Also, there are three threads about this. I only responded to two of them, but all three use the present tense, and several people talk about how they respecced already.

[Kursyu]

So Bioware secretly changed the Raze talent ,

It now does not proc on melee crits only but you need lightning charge discharge effect on the target before and melee hits have a 33% to make it proc with an inner CD of 7.5 sec

 

i guess for a pure madness build it does not matter that much but this KILLS hybrid builds .

 

i used this build

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#200MIMozZhGbMzZf0cRr0z.1

12/13/16

 

which was really fun in pvp and its just been nerfed , please someone explain me this and why do we deserve this , our class is crap anyway so we get this extra nerf and why put it secretly in the patch and not let us know before !? this kind of sutff really makes me want to quit

 

So instead of posting in the already created Raze topic, you decided to add more useless crap to the board?

 

It's even on the first page.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=254877

Edited February 1, 2012 by Kursyu

[Sabbathius]

Maybe they just haven't figured out what to do with the other classes to remove the Hybrid builds. Have you checked tooltips on your Powertech lately?

 

Yep, first thing I did after checking my Sin was log in on Powertech and check their version of Raze (Prototype Particle Accelerator). Still same old tooltip. It's just Sins, from the looks of it.

[GuyTallman]

And thus the fun that was my hybrid sin did come to an end. I could care less about the fact that the class was nerfed, I care more about the means with which it was implemented.

 

A reduction in the amount of choices you have is bad, especially when the number of choices is already rather limited. Lets not kid ourselves, these trees aren't rocket science. To get to a final skill in any given tree usually means that you have to purchase every skill except for maybe 5-10 points which doesn't lead to much diversity.

 

What is being done here is a hamfisted attempt to more strictly define the classes. These are your 3 options, and you will like them!

[ReFlexionn]

i don't get it... i see it proc alot and i don't crit much, you sure they nerfed it?

[GuyTallman]

i don't get it... i see it proc alot and i don't crit much, you sure they nerfed it?

 

Yes, before it proc'd off of thrash crit. Now it procs only off a hit on a target effected by your lightning charge.

 

It would work like this. Dark charge, spam thrash, auto crit Shock, increase melee crit%, continue to spam thrash and enjoy free crushing darkness at your leisure. It synergized rather well with the darkness tree, now it cannot be used by the darkness tree.

[ReFlexionn]

im full madness though, i guess i see what the problem is...hybrid darkness and madness huh? i think tracer missile and grav round nerf is next.

[Berjiz]

The chance has been buffed to 60% though.

[SmellNoEvil]

The chance has been buffed to 60% though.

 

But you lose out on the ability to use Dark Charge.

[jkcheng]

But you lose out on the ability to use Dark Charge.

 

That was the whole point. This is not a nerf if you're spec'ed in Madness. BW currently do not want Hybrid builds so the change was made to kill off Raze from being used by other specs, and the best way to do it is to make a Charge requirement. The same was done to Induction to require Surging Charge for the Force cost discount on Shock. That killed off the 0/13/28 spec I was using before. I've now switched to full Madness.