Those calling for Sage/Sorc nerf

[Killabee]

Yea like all the people that got my scoundrel nerfed played one.

 

They nerfed my class to me unsubing very nice BW won't be as funny when it happens to urs.

[KraithFjorn]

My issue with Sorcerers has to deal with the fact that they have so much utility.

 

Here's some food for thought....

 

- A DPS specced Sorcerer has the same Damage output as every other sustained DPS specced class

- Sorcerers get Static Barrier, which is very effective at blocking damage, lasts 30 seconds, and can be cast on other players. Agents get Shield probe, which absorbs less damage, lasts half the time, has a 45 second cool-down, and can't be cast on other players. Bounty Hunters get Energy Shield, which reduces less damage than Static Barrier, lasts 12 seconds, and has a 2 minute cool-down

- Sorcerers can pull friendly targets too them

- Sorcerers get force slow, with a 12 second cooldown, which reduces movement speed by 50%. Agents, if appropriately specced, can have Corrosive Grenade, which only reduces targets movement speed by 30% for the same duration

- Sorcerers get Force Speed, which is +150% movement speed for 2 seconds. No other DPS class has something comparable

- Sorcerers get Overload, which knocks back and knocks down enemies for 3 seconds with a 20 second cool-down. Sniper's equivalent requires Cover, simply immobilizes enemies (doesn't knock them down), ends prematurely if the targets take damage, and has a 30 second cool-down. Mercenaries equivalent also has a 30 second cooldown, and merely slows enemies by 60% for 4 seconds. Warriors equivalent does have a 15 sec. cooldown, but only stuns enemies for 1.5 seconds

- Force lighting (a main Inquisitor ability) reduces target movement speed by 50%

- Sorcerers can pull enemy targets to them. Bounty Hunters have an equivalent, Warriors and Agents don't

- Sorcerer's Channeled AoE slows targets

- DPS Sorcerer's can throw off heals. Mercenaries can do the same. Every other DPS Specced class is outta luck

 

Obviously, this doesn't cover all of the different CC abilities each class has. However, the point still stands that as a DPS Specced Sorcerer, you have incredible utility with the only drawback being light armor. Nerf Sorcerer's DPS? Not necessary. Nerf their utility? Yes Please!

Edited February 4, 2012 by KraithFjorn

[SDFX]

When it comes to the sage and the sorcerer’s powers, I do not think any one of them is truly overpowered. The actual problems come from being too versatile and well-rounded when compared to other classes and what happens when they are found in numbers on the battlefield working together. I am honestly not sure that a nerf would fix the issues at all. They are what they are. Swiss Army Knives with team speak, lol.

[byteresistor]

- Sorcerers get Static Barrier, which is very effective at blocking damage, lasts 30 seconds, and can be cast on other players. Agents get Shield probe, which absorbs less damage, lasts half the time, has a 45 second cool-down, and can't be cast on other players. Bounty Hunters get Energy Shield, which reduces less damage than Static Barrier, lasts 12 seconds, and has a 2 minute cool-down

Sorcerers have light armor. Agents and BH's do not. That isn't really a fair comparision.

 

- Sorcerers get Force Speed, which is +150% movement speed for 2 seconds. No other DPS class has something comparable

How about...I dunno...assassins?

 

- Sorcerers can pull enemy targets to them.

NO, just no.

 

Seriously, if you're going to point out flaws in something, try not to force misinformation alongside the real info.

[Belbullab]

it is a very solid class all around and no need for buffs.

 

lol. that's all it take for any mmo vet to know that it needs a nerf. gj.

[Hotec]

the only thing i would nerf about it is the slowing debuff that force lightning and throw puts on a player... 7 cc's is to much

[Adzzy]

I have a 50 sorc, and a 49 merc, they were so boringly easy in pvp that I rolled a new assasin.

 

1-49 sorcs/sages are nutty op vs everything but other sorcs and maybe arsenal mercs that get the jump on them.

 

I haven't played much 50+ pvp yet, I have a job and a life and am still enjoying the leveling process on alts.

 

This is a bit of lol, but on to your points

 

sorcs mutilate all melee?

 

what? marauders/sentinels are the single best 1v1 class in the game once geared, to that there isn't much debate, they hit really really really hard (so much so, i had a marauder complaining about a sentinel being op, i guess he didnt realise they were his mirror...lol), a sorc will beat them up on huttball due to layout; void, civil war or ilum? yeah good luck with that. Juggernauts are also mean as hell (at least rage ones are) for a sorc, due to a combination of their cc, saber ward and how incredibly hard smash can hit.

 

As for not playing much 50+, it could be paraphrased as "I don't know what the balance is like, but this is imbalanced".

 

Sorcs get no useful skills or talents really after 30 (well they get a huttball skill and thats about it), it means that they're basically 'overpowered' due to having a complete toolset fairly early on, it balances out through the 40's, my powertech for example got an aoe stun at 46, assassins get a knockdown at 42, can't possibly see the use in those....

 

As for 2 sorcs vs a sorc and melee? lol.....just lol, unless 1 of the sorcs is heal spec (in which case his dps is next to zero), there's no way 2 sorcs could survive even remotely against say a marauder + sorc (and perhaps it would require both being heal spec to deal with the amount of smackdown a geared marauder getting cc dispelled can bring to the table, this is where the lack of 50 pvp experience exists, marauders can just plain melt other classes), or smash jugg + sorc, the latter using a combination of guard and taunt by the jugg would absolutely roflstomp them.

Edited February 4, 2012 by Adzzy

[nietschy]

Playing 31 31 31 with the shadow tanking tree as an addition would be overpowered.

 

If you cannot get the skills right you still have a learn to play and learn your opponents issue...

 

And Scoundrel/Operative is still very strong and extremly dangerous, more dangerous than any melee class.

[Adzzy]

My issue with Sorcerers has to deal with the fact that they have so much utility.

 

Here's some food for thought....

 

- A DPS specced Sorcerer has the same Damage output as every other sustained DPS specced class

 

less unless there's aoe to be done, that's why raid guilds prefer mercs and snipers.

 

- Sorcerers get Static Barrier, which is very effective at blocking damage, lasts 30 seconds, and can be cast on other players. Agents get Shield probe, which absorbs less damage, lasts half the time, has a 45 second cool-down, and can't be cast on other players. Bounty Hunters get Energy Shield, which reduces less damage than Static Barrier, lasts 12 seconds, and has a 2 minute cool-down

 

shield probe doesn't trigger the gcd, completely different type of ability. Absorb more than energy shield? umm, energy shield is for a heavy armor class when being focused (the healer for example can talent it to make them interrupt immune....), not a hp buffer for a light armor class

 

- Sorcerers can pull friendly targets too them

 

ok?

 

- Sorcerers get force slow, with a 12 second cooldown, which reduces movement speed by 50%. Agents, if appropriately specced, can have Corrosive Grenade, which only reduces targets movement speed by 30% for the same duration

 

corrosive grenade is an aoe...

 

- Sorcerers get Force Speed, which is +150% movement speed for 2 seconds. No other DPS class has something comparable

 

deception assassins aren't dps? news to me

 

- Sorcerers get Overload, which knocks back and knocks down enemies for 3 seconds with a 20 second cool-down. Sniper's equivalent requires Cover, simply immobilizes enemies (doesn't knock them down), ends prematurely if the targets take damage, and has a 30 second cool-down. Mercenaries equivalent also has a 30 second cooldown, and merely slows enemies by 60% for 4 seconds. Warriors equivalent does have a 15 sec. cooldown, but only stuns enemies for 1.5 seconds

 

overload is an immobilize not a knockdown, the immobilize is a 3rd tier talent meaning you can't take a 31 point talent even if you wanted it from another tree, and their knockback has a much shorter distance (8 yards vs 15)

 

- Force lighting (a main Inquisitor ability) reduces target movement speed by 50%

 

and requires the caster to be stationary, but ok?

 

- Sorcerers can pull enemy targets to them. Bounty Hunters have an equivalent, Warriors and Agents don't

 

no, only assassin/shadow 21 point tank spec and powertech/vanguards can do that

 

- Sorcerer's Channeled AoE slows targets

 

and?

 

- DPS Sorcerer's can throw off heals. Mercenaries can do the same. Every other DPS Specced class is outta luck

 

so can an operative, but what do you want here? 8 healing classes?

[Kaluah]

Expect MANY more of these desperate threads lol.. Sorcs are scared they will get nerfed.. i cant believe the OP actually said that maybe the reason there are so many Sorcs/Sages is because they like the casting aesthetics ??? lol ..

 

I cannot wait to see this class brought back down to earth.. They are to powerfull, everyone knows it, even the OP. Hence why he made this thread.

 

Nerf sorcs/sages... Commandos.... then Mercs .. and then the game is pretty balanced.

 

You cried and cried and got Operatives ground into the Dirt. Now pucker up.

Edited February 4, 2012 by Kaluah

[RossWright]

im a sage and i dont think it needs to be nerfed at all... i think if you know how to play your class then you should have no problem takeing a sorc/sage on solobut if the sage nows how to play there class aswell then its a very close fight every class has its perks and downfalls but there evenly matched

[Kaluah]

im a sage and i dont think it needs to be nerfed at all... i think if you know how to play your class then you should have no problem takeing a sorc/sage on solobut if the sage nows how to play there class aswell then its a very close fight every class has its perks and downfalls but there evenly matched

 

Play another class and then realise that most other classes have hard counters. You dont.

[EcGBorn]

I'm a sage and I think I need to be nerfed.

 

On average I can do the most damage and the most healing in a wz. I just dinged level 19. I have been pvping since level 10.

 

As I gain more levels its becoming easier and easier with the new talents. I can pretty much destroy any melee class before they can even destroy my shield. The double project seems to be 60-65% not 45%

Edited February 4, 2012 by EcGBorn

[Kaluah]

I'm a sage and I think I need to be nerfed.

 

On average I can do the most damage and the most healing in a wz. I just dinged level 19. I have been pvping since level 10.

 

As I gain more levels its becoming easier and easier with the new talents. I can pretty much destroy any melee class before they can even destroy my shield. The double project seems to be 60-65% not 45%

 

I made a Sorcerer with a friend just for fun. For the first 20 WZ we couldnt stop laughing at how stupid they are. On many occasions on skype youd hear stuff like " Ok yep.. to many.. so now ill just knock everyone away run away and heal and theres nothing anyone can do."

 

Huttball when i grabbed the ball id just sprint to first ledge.. throw it up to friend hed sheild sprint thru fire.. cap... srsly.. if someone chrages u.. knockback.. how can you not see how broken this class is. The fact is.. you can see it, its the reason you play it.

 

personally i felt icky playing this fotm, over populated easy mode class and quit. But my friend still plays his and regularly tops healing and dmg.... and if i guard him on my Jug.. its like.. dont even bother unless theres 6 of u.

[Sathid]

I don't know how many times I've said this, but I'll say it again, you're flat out wrong if you say people play sorc/sage because it's op. I won't argue they could lose a little utility, and it's true they have the only intuitive resource in the game, but ppl play sorcs b/c they shoot lightning, and this is very easily proven by the fact that there are probably 4 times as many sorcs as sages.

 

Most people aren't fotm players, they play what speaks to them and their personality. Join any 10-49 wz and I'd bet you money empire will be 70% sorcs and republic will be 70% troopers.

 

But yea, on a side note force lightning slow should be taken away and there's some tweaking that needs to happen in all the healer classes to bring them closer together. Also resolve being fixed would fix a lot of that. By the way, you ever interrupt a sorc casting lightning? Most of em will just sit and stare at you b/c they don't know what to do now

 

Heh people called myself and my fellow Scoundrels and Operatives rolling an OP class or FOTM,when in fact we rolled them because there was so few or like myself i did not wish to be like everyone else and the Han Solo lore was appealing,i did not know scrapper would be as good as it was and i bet 95% of the people that were 50 by week three knew either that roled smugglers,but that didnt stop people from calling me that here,i did the three day beta over thanksgiving and that was it too.

 

As far Sorcs being nerfed,you guys better hope they dont throw the bat at you guys like they did us,this toon Maris has not been in a WZ since the nerf,i most likely will take him out this weekend and see how it goes for myself,but i have already rerolled and no it is not a sorc or merc.

[cainejw]

I'd like to add that just this evening I did a Huttball against the same faction. We had a sage who did 400k DPS, but didn't break 50k healing. Why? They were DPSing all the time.

 

However, there was a commando that did 130k DPS and 200k healing in a hybrid spec. Just a second ago, a commando doing 190k healing, 190k DPS.

 

So are we now going to cry for trooper nerfs when they can heal and DPS with this mythical large amount which apparently demands a nerf for sages and sorcerers?

[Sathid]

I made a Sorcerer with a friend just for fun. For the first 20 WZ we couldnt stop laughing at how stupid they are. On many occasions on skype youd hear stuff like " Ok yep.. to many.. so now ill just knock everyone away run away and heal and theres nothing anyone can do."

 

Huttball when i grabbed the ball id just sprint to first ledge.. throw it up to friend hed sheild sprint thru fire.. cap... srsly.. if someone chrages u.. knockback.. how can you not see how broken this class is. The fact is.. you can see it, its the reason you play it.

 

personally i felt icky playing this fotm, over populated easy mode class and quit. But my friend still plays his and regularly tops healing and dmg.... and if i guard him on my Jug.. its like.. dont even bother unless theres 6 of u.

 

Sage/Sorc/Inquis i have been saying what you and others are saying in this thread for three weeks i gave up two weeks ago,but now people are seeing even more and i say good let it be sorc/inquis 90% and finally people would realize that when you have four or more in a WZ puuuhhhllllzzz,it's not the sorc or inquis with one or two it's the sheer numbers that really take its toll on any mixed group.

[LeEntropy]

When a class has high damage, cc, exeptional healing abilities even if you're not specced as a healer, a shield that makes them tankier than most classes, virtually no CD on a knockback and a speed buff that results in an escape 9 out of 10 times it's balanced. really. it is. trust me.

[tsupra]

sorc/sages clearly dominate the noob bracket so yes we should nerf them in order to make the game more appealing(lol)

[Tempsticks]

Healers aren't a huge problem alone, but a premade of a Tank with guard, 2 healers, and a dps will win against ANY other comp if everyone plays at equal competency. Guard needs to be 33% damage reduct in pvp and deadly throw needs to be 30-50%. At least one or the other. Either that or remove heal boosts from expertise.

[ARMofGod]

(I am not trying to simply defend the class because I play one. I Just want to bring up some points regaurding some of the reasoning behind these "calls to action" I will agree that as a Sage, it is a very solid class all around and no need for buffs. However not sure nerfs are needed as much as the posting here makes it out to be)

This should be fun, lets get started!

 

1) People who say "nerf Sorcs, there are 8 in my wz" ... Well, showing a screenshot with the INQUISITOR emblem doesnt mean they are ALL sorcs for one. So screenshotting that for us does nothing.

So there are two classes instead of 1 that need a nerf. Got it.

 

 

A) WHY so many? Solid class all around. Only class that closely resembles a priest/shadow priest, warlock, mage from WoW. Light armor caster. Aesthetic and animations. So maybe they are really calling for aeshetic buffs to other classes? Make them more desireable to play? It may not ever happen.

Solid class all around? That sounds like you need a nerf to me. No other class is solid all around. Why do you get to be solid all around?

 

 

B) " So much Purple Lightning, nerf them" So 4 Sorcs are all attacking you and all you see is lightning. So the Sorc class must be nerfed? ANY 4 of a particular class will Kill you. The ONLY reason why you call for a nerf is because of A) Alot of players like that class.

Difference is, those 4 sorcs cannot be killed. Knockback. Stun. Mez. Snare. Other snare(dot). Other other snare(lightning). Speed burst.

 

 

B2) It amuses me that some people call for a nerf on Sorcs due to 4 of them focus firing on them yet did not want any nerf done to operative/scoundrel. 1 Op could do what 4 sorcs do. Now don't get me wrong, I think Ops are fine and should not be touched anymore for a bit. They NEED to have burst damage but none the less once again.. 1 OP could/can kill in the same time it takes those 4 sorcs shooting purple.

No, an operative could take half a lifebar and then he was a weak melee class untill he restealthed. A sorc is an unkillable machine that puts out damage and makes sure no one without cloaking screen up can escape.

 

If everyone played Snipers and you got focused by 4 snipers... you would be calling nerfs on them which means you are simply calling nerfs due to outnumbering or class stacks verse that actually class itself. So if the fact that there are a TON of sorcs bothers you.. that's a different issue.

If everyone played snipers, OBVIOUSLY they would need a nerf. The point of different classes is to have a even spread of players playing all of them. Everyone playing any class is reason alone to nerf it.

 

 

ON Onther Note: Calls to Healing Class Nerfs

(Once again, YES i play a Healer. However I played DPS leveling up and for a bit at 50)

1) "They Out heal my dps" , "Me and another we on a healer and he healed through it"

As a DPS spec, You WILL have trouble taking down a healer. They WILL heal through alot of your damage but you SHOULD win if done correctly. Managing your interrupts and CC will give you the ability to do so. I never have trouble when dps on staying on a Healer.

Oh now a DPS'er should take down a healer? Then why the ^&*( did you nerf operatives? They sure as **() can't take them down now. Which you already know.

 

 

Now here is where the problem comes in: Often times DPS will attack a Healer by themselves in a WZ. I can Guarantee that the healer WILL be able to keep himself up long enough for reinforcements therefore killing the dps which leads to that person thinking " that's stupid.. i kept hitting him and he outlived..op" Focus Fire is the name of the game. If you have 2 or More dps on a Healer in a WZ you should have NO problem locking down most. Good healers will be able to kite/ escape a bit and cc but it comes down to teamwork. If the healer's team can peel you off the healer gg. If your Tea, can focus down their heals... works the same way.

So you are un-kill-able by DPS. Got it. Swing the nerf bat.

 

 

 

As a Healer, I dont find myself properly interrupted. Learn the spells that you should lock out a healer on... it will make a difference.

Dont you dare be so vain as to think no one ever thought of interupting you. Your sorc is overpowered and can't be killed when played smart. An interupt isnt going to change that.

 

 

2) Calls to School Lockouts: meaning if a heal is interrupted, they shouldnt be able to cast any heals.

For four seconds... But they can cast speed,snare,stun,mez, or a knockback untill those 4 seconds are up... or cast any of the other 4 heals next to the one you locked out. You've got some nerve trying to act as if you have 1 heal spell. No one is buying it.

 

In WoW.. that was perfectly fine! Fake Casts ftw. This game will never see that but school lockouts will make a Healer shortage in the long run for pvp. Why?

 

I dont care about wow. You should go back to it tho.

 

Because of the amount of CC in the game period. If you are calling for resolve fixes then you understand why already. Ill Make it simple: 4 dps on the healer in a wz. Healer fake casts first heal, Dps 1 throws out his interrupt (failed). Healer Fake casts again, Dps 2 throws out interrupt (failed), Healer then goes to Heal with no fake, Dps 3 interrupts. Healer can;t heal for 4 seconds now and already wasted 4 seconds on fake cast. Healer is now ready to get off a needed heal Dps 1, 2, 3, or 4 throw out a stun cc. Healer waits another 4 seconds to get out.. At this point does the healer waste more time fake casting? or try to actually cast and allow any of the dps to silence once again.

This is a line of crap. 4 people assist on a sorc, he hits kockback and speed and no one sees him again untill he is at full health. Stop wasting my time with this dribble.

 

It's just the name of the game guys... this isnt WoW. Locking down a Healer is doable.. If it's 1v1 GOOD healers will win.. but Great DPS will take it everytime.

 

SORRY FOR THE LONG POST! i'd be interested to see any feedback or thoughts. Game is good though.. has potential.. just waiting on ILUM rehaul!

So a DPS'er has to live up to your definition of "great" to be able to kill you? Sounds like a "True Scotsman" debate to me. Maybe if you didn't have 7 escape tools with an average cooldown of 10 seconds between them you wouldnt be unkillable, everyone wouldnt play your class, and there wouldnt be nerf sorc threads there are 8 in my wz threads.

 

 

ps: I have a 50 sorc, so your BS isn't landing here.

[BryscoMDM]

You can't "trinket" initial CC. Its a knockdown not a stun, i.e. "not breakable." And even if you could, they have more than one CC along with mass amount of other utility. All I want nerfed is small amount of Ops damage and small amount of sorc bubble. Nothing much.

 

The sorc bubble is the main problem here. They might as well give them heavy armor as it is. Its much easier to kill an op with medium armor (or even a marauder/merc w heavy armor) than is it to kill an inquisitor with light armor....how does that make sense? They should have to be more aware of the combat situation, just like ops have to be. Also, they should by no means be the primary ball carrier in hutt ball...***

[SuprabondAddict]

BS. People gave up on characters half way to 50 to jump on the Sorc/Op bandwagons.

 

I've talked with more than a few people that have given up on their initial 50s or gave up part of the way to 50 simply because of the review that sorcs and ops were getting in WZs, although the same goes for BHs as well. Show me someone that dropped their sorc to roll a sniper. There aren't any.

 

In the first few weeks after release sorc representation was about on level with the other classes, same with ops, now sorcs are a dime a dozen, and ops are thinning out again because they've been spending so much time on the forums trying desperately to catch Bioware's ear and avoid their nerf (kinda like the OP).

 

There is a pattern there.

 

 

THIS GUY knows the truth..

[Kaluah]

I'd like to add that just this evening I did a Huttball against the same faction. We had a sage who did 400k DPS, but didn't break 50k healing. Why? They were DPSing all the time.

 

However, there was a commando that did 130k DPS and 200k healing in a hybrid spec. Just a second ago, a commando doing 190k healing, 190k DPS.

 

So are we now going to cry for trooper nerfs when they can heal and DPS with this mythical large amount which apparently demands a nerf for sages and sorcerers?

 

YES, see the pandoras box that you opened? You nerfed the crap out of Operatives. Ok thats fine. But fair is fair... if you say they were Overpowerd.. FINE.. im ok with that.. but i expect balance now.

 

Commandos are just as ******** as Sorcs.. next time your in a WZ have a look around.. its so easy to pick what is to easy/powerfull atm..

 

I challenge anyone to dissagree with these guesstimates. I have purely pvpd since lvl 10 on 3 new toons (none of which are in the top 3 and all of which are 45+ now) and since the up and coming pvpers are the future of the game this is what we have to look forward 2.

 

 

average warzone (sub 50) meaning re rolls from Marauder/operative/assassin/Sniper @ 50 Or fresh players hot off these forums finding out which class is OP

 

35% Sorc

20% Trooper

20% Mercenary

10% Assassin

10% warrior type (2% marauder)

5% Agent (ofc no 1 is rerolling agent now)

 

*OFC these will fluctuate each game but on average i think that pretty much sums up my server.

Some games i see 50% troopers, some i see 50% merc some 50% sorc.. but the one constant is that its ALWAYS those 3 classes. I think its a safe bet that in the imediate future we will not be seeing a 50% marauder or 50% Sniper , 50% Operative WZ.. you see what im getting at.

 

So why?? you have to ask the question:

 

Assassin is an underrated class in my opinion but from most WZs i do they are few and far between and Melee (assassin +warriors+operative) in general is being pushed away from PVP AND PVE because you can successfully and more efficiently clear the entire games content using ONLY the top 3 calsses... Like i said.. disagree but you cant deny the harsh reality and something needs fixing.

 

Best Pve + pvp healers : Merc +Sorc

Easiest pve Class to tank with : Trooper

Easiest / Best pvp classes with amazing synergy (peels,protection,cc,heals) = Merc , sorc , trooper.

 

Ive added and added to this post and its frightfully big now, but ill leave you with one question.

 

If you were joining a premade WZ grp and player skill is equal. What would you rather see in that grp, Sorc, trooper, merc? Or Operative,Marauder,Jug?? (tip: compare the utility and healing power XD)

 

Now your Forming a HM grp, once again.. who in their right mind is going to take an all Melee dps/tank team with an underpowered healer...you can probly do it.. but itl be 50% harder as you will have ALOT of pressure on that Operatives heals. Absurd.

 

/endrant

Edited February 4, 2012 by Kaluah

[tufy]

The question I'd respond with, on this point, is why don't you see everyone playing snipers? Why are people flocking to sorcs/sages?

 

Actually, going by my experiences both in Warzones and in world all around, it seems troopers/bounty hunters are immensely popular right now. Yesterday at one point I've had 5 troopers (mostly commandos) and one sage around me. Likewise, pvping with my guardian and sage, I often see loads of bounty hunters, four to five per match is nothing strange, most often topping the damage charts as they go, with an occasional sage/sorcerer mixed in.

 

Why not snipers/gunslingers? If I dare say it, because at the end of the day, all they do is damage. Why roll one when you can do great dps and healing with a commando/sage or, should you like the class, roll operative/scoundrel and get a stealther with heals instead?

 

Simply put, pure classes are seen as inferior. A couple of Marauders/Sentinels can do impressive damage, but I have yet to see any one of them anywhere near the top of the charts. Gunslingers/Snipers can do a lot better, but still, when **** hits the fan, they'll roll over, whereas Commando/Sage/Operative may yet live to fight another day.