Anyone notice the tooltip change on Raze?

[pinkfreudHC]

It's rather obvious that each of the 3 stances we get corresponds to a tree. So there's nothing wrong with actually carrying this out.

 

Now since Dark Charge > all right now, this is a significant nerf since the advantages of Dark Charge outweighs the advantages of the other two stances. They really should think about how to add some survivality to Deception/Madness that is not dependent on Dark Charge, and presumably deep enough so that you can't use it easily as a Darkness.

 

There kind of already is. 30% less AOE damage taken is a big deal in the zergfest that is PVP. Tier 4 talent in Deception. I suppose they could change Devour in the Madness tree to 100% instead of 10%, effectively making DoT crits heal you for 2% max HP instead of 1.1%. That would equalize it with Sith Warrior's bleed/heal mechanic.

[LordbishopX]

There kind of already is. 30% less AOE damage taken is a big deal in the zergfest that is PVP. Tier 4 talent in Deception. I suppose they could change Devour in the Madness tree to 100% instead of 10%, effectively making DoT crits heal you for 2% max HP instead of 1.1%. That would equalize it with Sith Warrior's bleed/heal mechanic.

 

 

Not even close to what you get directly now with DC mode its a slap right in the face and need some consideration our mitigation with out DC is JACK bleeep and our dps doesn't set us a part at all normally a class like this would be the glass canon not a middle of the pack dpser with 0 defense.

Edited January 31, 2012 by LordbishopX

[Astarica]

AEs are more prevalent in world PvP (Ilum). In Warzones, unless you're in front of a major brawl in Voidstar, most attacks still tend to be single targetted.

 

Even in PvE, against anything with a strong AE, Dark Charge far outweighs the small DPS you gain due to the greatly increased survivality. If Dark Charge lets you melee through even one strong AE, the DPS you get from not having to dodge that (or better yet, die from that) more than makes up the difference. And again, there's really no significant loss of DPS in Darkness to begin with, because Darkness builds would tend to focus on Force attacks which is not affected by the penalty of Dark Charge.

[pinkfreudHC]

AEs are more prevalent in world PvP (Ilum). In Warzones, unless you're in front of a major brawl in Voidstar, most attacks still tend to be single targetted.

 

Even in PvE, against anything with a strong AE, Dark Charge far outweighs the small DPS you gain due to the greatly increased survivality. If Dark Charge lets you melee through even one strong AE, the DPS you get from not having to dodge that (or better yet, die from that) more than makes up the difference. And again, there's really no significant loss of DPS in Darkness to begin with, because Darkness builds would tend to focus on Force attacks which is not affected by the penalty of Dark Charge.

 

Dark Charge in questing PVE: Go for it.

Dark Charge in Flashpoints/Ops if you aren't the tank: gkick (Unless you are leet enough to time stance-dances to boss cleaves, in which case... go you!)

[Bamzamma]

I dont think this is a nerf. It would make you proc Raze more often since right now it procs on a MELEE CRIT. It would proc more often since it's no longer the % of a %, but a base % proc'ed on melee hits.

 

Also, this makes the Madness spec fall even more in line... Bonuses that get stacked on your DoT damage.

 

Raze is epic. It does poop ton of damage in a small time frame.

 

I know Madness is a DoT spec, but after you stack LC, CD, FL(Recklessness), and Thrash you can do lots of damage in no time.

 

Don't get me wrong I'm not glorifying Madness or Assassins(they are not the top of the dps/burst list, however they arent pushovers either), but from what I can see this is awesome... well, for Madness players anyway.

 

As for the damage, I never really had trouble keeping my DoTs up or my damage. Lots of people here complaining, but in pvp i typically get top 5 in damage with out really trying.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Bamzamma

[Jabtangs]

I dont think this is a nerf. It would make you proc Raze more often since right now it procs on a MELEE CRIT. It would proc more often since it's no longer the % of a %, but a base % proc'ed on melee hits.

 

Also, this makes the Madness spec fall even more in line... Bonuses that get stacked on your DoT damage.

 

Raze is epic. It does poop ton of damage in a small time frame.

 

I know Madness is a DoT spec, but after you stack LC, CD, FL(Recklessness), and Thrash you can do lots of damage in no time.

 

Don't get me wrong I'm not glorifying Madness or Assassins(they are not the top of the dps/burst list, however they arent pushovers either), but from what I can see this is awesome... well, for Madness players anyway.

 

I don't know if it will make it proc more often. I already proc alot so that I can reapply CD before or even before it runs out. with the ICD added to it, it is going to go by 3s without CD.

 

PLUS, it needs lightning discharge applied to the target you are hitting so pretty lame imo.

[Bamzamma]

I don't know if it will make it proc more often. I already proc alot so that I can reapply CD before or even before it runs out. with the ICD added to it, it is going to go by 3s without CD.

 

PLUS, it needs lightning discharge applied to the target you are hitting so pretty lame imo.

 

Lighting charge is the highest damage ability for the assassin? Its a dot, but compared to total damage of the other skills it does the most. (Pre talent spec; this was on purpose)

 

See this post. I did some math on the skills. It isn't perfect but the premise is pretty solid.

 

The Thread

Edited February 1, 2012 by Bamzamma

[Khaazilla]

What's with them changing the tooltip for skills but not changing the actual ability?? Raze still procs off of melee crits without discharge being active.

 

Is that their way of easing us into the changes or something? Because that's really dumb.

[Jabtangs]

What's with them changing the tooltip for skills but not changing the actual ability?? Raze still procs off of melee crits without discharge being active.

 

Is that their way of easing us into the changes or something? Because that's really dumb.

 

It's most likely that their tooltip file (bunch of keyword-text mapping file) is updated and by mistake (or on purpose i don't care) they just uploaded that file to live. I dunno if any german or french people look on this forum, but just want to check if their tooltip changed too. If not, yea BW don't know anything about development

[mrcjevans]

I dont get how thrash can do more damage than voltaic slash? am i missing something? ^^

 

I use 2/31/8 and never touched thrash

[Sabbathius]

It's most likely that their tooltip file (bunch of keyword-text mapping file) is updated and by mistake

 

Doesn't feel like a mistake. When it happened last patch, we thought it could be just accidental - tooltips from an internal build or something. But now it's two patches in a row with these changes, and changes are all headed in the same direction - killing hybrid specs.

 

Seems to me there's no mistake here. Looks like their tooltips are updated ahead of the actual patch making it on PTR. But I fully expect to see all this stuff in the next patch's notes.

[PringerZ]

I dont get how thrash can do more damage than voltaic slash? am i missing something? ^^

 

I use 2/31/8 and never touched thrash

 

Claws of Decay gives thrash a 50% critical damage bonus, with enough crit (like the 4 piece stalker gear); it technically should pass voltaic in damage done.

[Infighter]

I think the reason might be because they wanted feedback...? To be honest, it sounds like an okay change (I'm not a big fun of hybrid builds, I'd rather they make end talents more attractive.) but I wish they'd rather make it happen while having Lightning Charge active than Discharge's effect.

[Randomness]

Frankly, I'm all for this change. I've gone entire boss fights before in which I never launched a Crushing Darkness because I never got a Raze proc.

 

Yes, make it just occur when Lightning Charge is active, save us a headache. It's not any different in practical terms for pve, and makes it slightly better in pvp... but that's it.

 

With regards to the survivability issue, perhaps a buff to the one armor talent that only works in lightning/surging is called for?

Edited February 1, 2012 by Randomness

[Nocorras]

They should have just made it while lightning charge is active... would have made raze not a complete luck fest. I'm sure this makes too much sense though. Edited February 1, 2012 by Nocorras

[pinkfreudHC]

I think the change will guarantee Raze procs, you just have to Discharge first. You have 18 seconds (up to 21 spec'd) in which you will essentially be ensured 2 Crushing Darknesses.

[Isharosh]

They also changed some tooltips for darkness talents. They added wither for proccing harnessed darkness and assassinate proccing energize. Neither of these ever happens.

[Krytycal]

I wouldn't put much weight on it. I remember the Acid Blade tooltip got busted when the release build came and people freaked out over nothing.

[Nocorras]

If they made it so that it works if you're using lightning charge madness and hybrid madness builds would be very very good for pvp. You have pretty bad damage right now if you don't get raze procs.

[Nethershadow]

Wow, alot of cry babies crying about the changes to making charge stances be used in thier 'obvious' tree they were designed for.

 

The fact that non darkness trees were relying so heavily on DC should have also been obvious to anyone that read the talent trees and charges that it is really only for the darkness tree and ext ext with the other charges to trees.

 

If anything, i think this has been needed and i have no doubt that damage/mitigation for all trees will be balanced eventually to be effective if they are lacking.

 

As so many people have been saying, the game is a little over a month old and it needs a bit of time to be worked out.

 

As for hybrid death, well i find to many mmo's with that last point talent in a tree design dont work well to having both hybrid and pure viable.

[Bamzamma]

I dont get how thrash can do more damage than voltaic slash? am i missing something? ^^

 

I use 2/31/8 and never touched thrash

 

Yea Thrash does more damage per force point; meaning if you spammed Thrash until you're out of Force it will do more damage than Voltaic Slash being spammed until you're out of Force. (Pre-spec; talents will skew the results)

Edited February 1, 2012 by Bamzamma

[Sabbathius]

As for hybrid death, well i find to many mmo's with that last point talent in a tree design dont work well to having both hybrid and pure viable.

 

Actually yeah, they do. Some of the most fun builds ever come from hybrid builds. In WoW, a hybrid Affliction/Demonologist warlock was very fun to play. In Age of Conan, a hybrid Herald of Xotli was really awesome too. Etc, etc.

 

It's never bad to give people variety and choice. Instead of lack of variety and lack of choice. It also keeps opponents guessing. If they kill off hybrids, all the enemy has to do is look at what stance you're in, and they know what spec you are. Yeah, yeah, you can change stances in combat. But if they see you fighting, odds are you'll be in your preferred stance, and bingo, they have your build down to a T. And now they know precisely how to fight you. Now compare that to the present scenario. See a Sin with Dark Charge? What are the odds he's FULL Darkness? Actually, pretty low. Nobody expects it. And when I start nailing them with uninterruptible lightning thy go WHAAA?! But if these changes go live, they see Dark Charge, they know what's coming.

 

Anyway, my view is that forcing a specific stance for a specific spec is kinda dumb. As a warrior in WoW, stance dancing was basically required. Your interrupt only worked in Beserker stance, your Overpower only worked in Battle stance, etc., etc. If you were being focused, you popped Defensive stance and defensive cooldowns, etc., etc. Instead, Bioware decided to tie a stance to a tree, and for the most part you will be in that tree because it's usually not time-efficient to switch stances in combat. Makes the game more primitive than it has to be, and limits choices.

[Bamzamma]

The problem with hybrid specs is the low tier abilities shouldn't be able to beat out the upper tier abilities.

 

Think of it this way:

 

Lets say you have a guy that can do some plumbing and some framing. He can get a house partially built and get some piping in it, but nothing will truly function fully.

 

Compare that to a specialized framer. He can build the entire house but he wont have plumbing.

 

The point is, Hybrids should not get full functionality in anything they do. Whereas full specs will have full functionality of that spec.

 

This is what the update is doing. Its not necessarily nerfing hybrids but buffing the specialized.

 

Those are two separate things. Yea you can see that being specialized affords some extra benefits, but the hybrids get some other benefits that don't directly give you the upper hand, but instead give you subtle changes that let you take on a slightly different group of enemies without giving you a win button.

 

In conclusion imagine two situations:

1) single spec dies, hybrid spec wins

2) single spec wins quickly, hybrid spec wins slowly

 

In scenario 1 the hybrid spec has the benefit of surviving the battle, in contrast to scenario 2 where they both win. In scenario 2, however, the hybrid fight should take longer and maybe even be slightly more difficult.

 

Scenario 1 is the benefit, Scenario 2 is the cost.

 

Essentially hybrids should survive more environments but at the cost of difficulty to play. You want options? You're going to have to pay for them. The cost? Very powerful top tier talents. That's the economic trade off.

 

If this game was about hybrid specs being the best option, why not go the whole nine yards and just give everyone 62 talent points. That way you can have two full specs; true hybrid gameplay; everyone would be hybrid.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Bamzamma

[Bamzamma]

Anyway, my view is that forcing a specific stance for a specific spec is kinda dumb. As a warrior in WoW, stance dancing was basically required. Your interrupt only worked in Beserker stance, your Overpower only worked in Battle stance, etc., etc. If you were being focused, you popped Defensive stance and defensive cooldowns, etc., etc. Instead, Bioware decided to tie a stance to a tree, and for the most part you will be in that tree because it's usually not time-efficient to switch stances in combat. Makes the game more primitive than it has to be, and limits choices.

 

 

This isn't wow... thank God. If I wanted to play wow, i would go play wow. The moment this game starts copying dynamincs from wow I will quit and just go back to wow.

 

The fact is, if they want to develop this game with spec'd stance locking, I would encourage it. I'm not here to play WoW after all.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Bamzamma

[Sabbathius]

This isn't wow... thank God. If I wanted to play wow, i would go play wow. The moment this game starts copying dynamincs from wow I will quit and just go back to wow.

 

Yeeeeah...about that... http://auditorydepredation.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/1326231905169.jpg

 

The fact is, if they want to develop this game with spec'd stance locking, I would encourage it. I'm not here to play WoW after all.

 

Well, that's your prerogative. I'm pro-choice, in life and in game. Anything that limits my choices will meet a negative response.