I hoping this thread will get linked to those people that wish to spam "30% = 30% = 30% NO MATTER WHA RAAWWWRRR!!" comments. Probability is not so simplistic. Thanks for the affirmation of my work.

Don't get hung up on the Independent Events idea... since you have two tries your outcome for the proc changes... sure each INDIVIDUAL event is independent... but Thrash doesnt offer an independent event; there are TWO events per outcome. Assassinate has one hit per GCD, easily enough... chance to proc is 30% ==================================== THRASH OUTCOME TABLE ==================================== There is a way to figure out overall % to proc for more than one hit per GCD. Here, I'll give you simple 3x2 and 3x3 example I learned in 7th grade. For simplicity of explanation I'm going to use a 33.3% proc. You'll see why. Lets say you're playing the lottery and your allowed to pick 1 number from 2 groups each containing the numbers 1-3. The chances of you picking the right number for the first try is 33.3% the chance of picking the right number for your second try is 33.3% The chance of picking BOTH numbers correctly is 3^2 or 1 out of 9 or 11.1%.(Below is the outcome table for this scenario... notice that if you had to get both numbers as 3's there is only one outcome to satisfy that condition;3-3. 1 out of 9) Lets say your goal is to pick a 3 AT LEAST ONCE out of TWO tries. Moving ahead now, the chances to proc(pull a 3) are INDEPENDENT EVENTS, the chance that out of two tries (Thrash hits twice) you get one correct number (only one hit needs to proc for the effect) can be found by analyzing the outcomes. Outcomes are:1-1,1-2,1-3,2-1,2-2,2-3,3-1,3-2,3-3 (although there are two 3's in the last outcome only it counts as one towards the chance of picking a 3 since you only needed one.) The chance of picking the number 3 out of the numbers 1-3 is 33.3%; the chances of picking a 3 in TWO tries is 55.5%(5 out of 9; as shown above from the outcomes table). The law of probability then states that as more and more samples are taken the closer you will come to the probability in the outcome table since over time all OUTCOMES are equally likely. This will normalize the data and you will get closer and closer to 55.5% (5 out of 9 times you will pick AT LEAST one 3 in two tries; think of a coin flip, although your first 3 coin flips may be heads, after 10,000 flips you'll see that you'll be really close to 50% heads and tails. Same thing here, after 5 pulls you may not have have pulled a 3, but after 10,000 tries you'll see that 55.5% of the time you will pull it AT LEAST once out of two tries.) This is a simple explanation since to do the proper math for a 30% chance you would need to do this analogy with 10 numbers and 3 being correct... too many numbers for effective explanation. That's why I used 33.3% per hit; a close approximation. Don't get hung up on the INDEPENDENT EVENT theory. Its true to some extent but once you factor in the multiple tries your overall chances change. ==================================== SABER STRIKE OUTCOME TABLE ==================================== For Saber Strike you get one more hit per GCD to get a proc. Lets calculate that now: Outcomes for three chances to pull a 3 from three hats containing the numbers 1, 2, and 3. 1-1-1,1-1-2,1-1-3,1-2-1,1-2-2,1-2-3,1-3-1,1-3-2,1-3-3 - 5 outcomes that have at least one 3 2-1-1,2-1-2,2-1-3,2-2-1,2-2-2,2-2-3,2-3-1,2-3-2,2-3-3 - 5 outcomes that have at least one 3 3-1-1,3-1-2,3-1-3,3-2-1,3-2-2,3-2-3,3-3-1,3-3-2,3-3-3 - 9 outcomes that have at least one 3 So out of 27 possible outcomes the chance that you pull a 3(proc) if you have three tries(Saber Strike) per event (GCD) is 19. So a rough estimate for Saber Strike Raze procs is 19 out 27 or 70.4% based on a 33.3%(close apporoximation for simplicity) proc for Raze. In closing, although the individual chance that Raze procs per hit is 30% the chance that per GCD Raze will proc changes based on which skill you use; single, double, or triple strike.

Tough track to walk... Think about the funding wow has put into refining the mmo genre. Not much more new ground to break. I think by making this game have interactive story modes over the internet is pretty new stuff. As for gameplay... if Blizz has spent millions if not billions on refining the game why not just "borrow" that expertise rather than funding all that money yourself... Makes sense. Now they will tweak it to fit their game. Problem is too many people don't like different. They complain and say they want it but deepdown... they don't. The changes have to be slow or the player base will drop. Time will tell. It boils down to comfort. If people arent comfprtable playing the game they will leave, people are comfortable with wow. If they changed to fast people will get uncomfortable and leave.

Wrong. Don't get hung up on the Independent Events idea... since you have two tries your outcome for the proc changes... sure each INDIVIDUAL event is independent... but Thrash doesnt offer an independent event; there are TWO events per outcome. There is a way to figure out overall % to proc (you are right about it not being exactly 60% but it's close). Here, I'll give you simple 3x2 example I learned in 7th grade. For simplicity of explanation I'm going to use a 33.3% proc. You'll see why. Lets say you're playing the lottery and your allowed to pick 1 number from 2 groups each containing the numbers 1-3. The chances of you picking the right number for the first try is 33.3% the chance of picking the right number for your second try is 33.3% The chance of picking BOTH numbers correctly is 3^2 or 1 out of 9 or 11.1%. Lets say your goal is to pick a 3 AT LEAST ONCE out of TWO tries. Moving ahead now (it gets tricky here), the chances to proc are INDEPENDENT EVENTS, the chance that out of two tries (Thrash hits twice) you get 1 correct number (only one hit needs to proc for the effect) can be found by analyzing the outcomes. Outcomes are:1-1,1-2,1-3,2-1,2-2,2-3,3-1,3-2,3-3 (although there are two 3's in the last outcome only it counts as one towards the chance of picking a 3 since you only needed one.) The chance of picking the number 3 out of the numbers 1-3 is 33.3%; the chances of picking a 3 in TWO tries is 55.5%(5 out of 9; as shown above from the outcomes table). The law of probability then states that as more and more samples are taken the closer you will come to the probability in the outcome table since over time all OUTCOMES are equally likely. This will normalize the data and you will get closer and closer to 55.5% (5 out of 9 times you will pick AT LEAST one 3 in two tries; think of a coin flip, although your first 3 coin flips may be heads, after 10,000 flips you'll see that you'll be really close to 50% heads and tails. Same thing here, after 5 pulls you may not have have pulled a 3, but after 10,000 tries you'll see that 55.5% of the time you will pull it AT LEAST once out of two tries.) This is a simple explanation since to do the proper math for a 30% chance you would need to do this analogy with 10 numbers and 3 being correct... too many numbers for effective explanation. That's why I used 33.3% per hit; a close approximation. Don't get hung up on the INDEPENDENT EVENT theory. Its true to some extent but once you factor in the multiple tries your overall chances change.

Wait, so you're saying you want the assassin, in light armor, to be able to solo 2+ opponents in PvP? That doesn't make sense... As a DPS you're not supposed to live forever. Either tank or DPS... you shouldn't and most likely will never, get both. And as development continues you're going to get farther and farther from this idea. As a Madness assassin I have no problem wailing on people in PVP... and I always use Lightening Charge on my saber to get the DoT from Discharge. I have no problem getting into the top 5 for damage in a match.

You people ************ about choice do realize that WoW at this point REQUIRES that you spend a minimum in one spec before spending points in others... You have more choice in this game than you think. Go play WoW then come ***** about choices.

Madness is the new OP.

The problem with hybrid specs is the low tier abilities shouldn't be able to beat out the upper tier abilities. Think of it this way: Lets say you have a guy that can do some plumbing and some framing. He can get a house partially built and get some piping in it, but nothing will truly function fully. Compare that to a specialized framer. He can build the entire house but he wont have plumbing. Lastly compare that to what you people want: A guy that can build the house and do the plumbing and get full functionality from both. Talk about breaking the game. The point is, Hybrids should not get full functionality in anything they do. Whereas full specs will have full functionality of that spec. You can see that being specialized affords some extra benefits, but the hybrids get some other benefits that don't directly give you the upper hand, but instead give you subtle changes that let you take on a slightly different group of enemies without giving you a win button. In conclusion imagine two situations: 1) single spec dies, hybrid spec wins 2) single spec wins quickly, hybrid spec wins slowly In scenario 1 the hybrid spec has the benefit of surviving the battle, in contrast to scenario 2 where they both win. In scenario 2, however, the hybrid fight should take longer and maybe even be slightly more difficult. Scenario 1 is the benefit, Scenario 2 is the cost. Essentially hybrids should survive more environments but at the cost of difficulty to play. You want options? You're going to have to pay for them. The cost? Very powerful top tier talents. That's the economic trade off. If this game was about hybrid specs being the best option, why not go the whole nine yards and just give everyone 62 talent points. That way you can have two full specs; true hybrid gameplay; everyone would be hybrid.

Unless they make assassin skills usable with them it would be foolish to equip them.

Yes there is... That's why they invented calculus.

Wow didn't invent those abilities, or the group/raid scenarios. Those were around way before wow. I'm talking about the dynamics behind the game. Comparing tooltips you could go back to some of the first rpgs long before wow was invented...

This isn't wow... thank God. If I wanted to play wow, i would go play wow. The moment this game starts copying dynamincs from wow I will quit and just go back to wow. The fact is, if they want to develop this game with spec'd stance locking, I would encourage it. I'm not here to play WoW after all.

The problem with hybrid specs is the low tier abilities shouldn't be able to beat out the upper tier abilities. Think of it this way: Lets say you have a guy that can do some plumbing and some framing. He can get a house partially built and get some piping in it, but nothing will truly function fully. Compare that to a specialized framer. He can build the entire house but he wont have plumbing. The point is, Hybrids should not get full functionality in anything they do. Whereas full specs will have full functionality of that spec. This is what the update is doing. Its not necessarily nerfing hybrids but buffing the specialized. Those are two separate things. Yea you can see that being specialized affords some extra benefits, but the hybrids get some other benefits that don't directly give you the upper hand, but instead give you subtle changes that let you take on a slightly different group of enemies without giving you a win button. In conclusion imagine two situations: 1) single spec dies, hybrid spec wins 2) single spec wins quickly, hybrid spec wins slowly In scenario 1 the hybrid spec has the benefit of surviving the battle, in contrast to scenario 2 where they both win. In scenario 2, however, the hybrid fight should take longer and maybe even be slightly more difficult. Scenario 1 is the benefit, Scenario 2 is the cost. Essentially hybrids should survive more environments but at the cost of difficulty to play. You want options? You're going to have to pay for them. The cost? Very powerful top tier talents. That's the economic trade off. If this game was about hybrid specs being the best option, why not go the whole nine yards and just give everyone 62 talent points. That way you can have two full specs; true hybrid gameplay; everyone would be hybrid.

Yea Thrash does more damage per force point; meaning if you spammed Thrash until you're out of Force it will do more damage than Voltaic Slash being spammed until you're out of Force. (Pre-spec; talents will skew the results)

This.

Lacerate is good in groups of 4+ mobs... it which case it does roughly 1200-1500. Thats pretty good. Using it for 1-2 mobs isnt worth while.

Lighting charge is the highest damage ability for the assassin? Its a dot, but compared to total damage of the other skills it does the most. (Pre talent spec; this was on purpose) See this post. I did some math on the skills. It isn't perfect but the premise is pretty solid. The Thread

I dont think this is a nerf. It would make you proc Raze more often since right now it procs on a MELEE CRIT. It would proc more often since it's no longer the % of a %, but a base % proc'ed on melee hits. Also, this makes the Madness spec fall even more in line... Bonuses that get stacked on your DoT damage. Raze is epic. It does poop ton of damage in a small time frame. I know Madness is a DoT spec, but after you stack LC, CD, FL(Recklessness), and Thrash you can do lots of damage in no time. Don't get me wrong I'm not glorifying Madness or Assassins(they are not the top of the dps/burst list, however they arent pushovers either), but from what I can see this is awesome... well, for Madness players anyway. As for the damage, I never really had trouble keeping my DoTs up or my damage. Lots of people here complaining, but in pvp i typically get top 5 in damage with out really trying.

Could of been tank spec; I heard tank spec assassins can tool some face and the gear has epic endurance. 70-80+ on all items(?).

It is beneath me, but I will do it.

You didn't see that coming on your own? It's pretty obvious that you kill your master.

Source: http://books.google.com/books?id=QS_sw7AfVDMC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Psychology&hl=en&sa=X&ei=e4wbT-OxEqfk0QGO3cGoCw&ved=0CG0Q6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=Psychology&f=false

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=185706

Very good post except this part I quoted. I would just throw in that every little bit helps. If you can drop it in your opening rotation without feeling too much pain, you should.

I play as Madness and I made a thread about it here. It should help. http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=185706