After Playing SWTOR, I get nostalgic for EQ.

[Grandpappy]

I'm starting to think that Old School EQ had it right, not that it would work in today's market. I enjoyed SWTOR, don't get me wrong... but I enjoyed it more like a Mass Effect single player game and less like an MMORPG. The only real reason to group was to do the occasional heroic quest, or to do a flash point. Of course SWTOR's mechanics,graphics, story, etc are leaps and bounds above EQ, but EQ had that special something in it.

 

EQ in my opinion actually felt like a world to explore. There were no rails to guide you on leveling. You hunted, traveled, and explored to find new niches and leveling areas. The zones themselves and the monsters within them told the story without the need of quest logs. Things were actually hidden and quests required you to think, explore, and experiment. Back in EQ, you got together in groups just to explore dangerous areas to find out what was there.

 

 

Traveling through the world itself was an adventure.

 

There was mystery in the game. Player driven myths about incredibly rare mobs existed. Dungeons were difficult and maze like. You would bring a player with you just because you knew they could navigate a certain area well.

 

Death was a bad thing. You could lose all your gear and your level. You fear death and that made exploring new areas and taking risks more exciting. I will never forget the fear of crossing Kithicor forest and seeing the Sun set in the distance. What was normally a friendly zone for levels 5-8 because a terrifying nightmare of 40+ elite monsters at night. The whole zone became a living hell.

 

Hunting gear was important as early as when you broke away from your newbie zones. Every zone had interesting and useful gear drops that could last you 10+ levels.

 

The problem with the game?

 

It was hard. It took work and time to do a lot of what was necessary. If you were a jerk or troll, you got black listed and your reputation was ruined. It took months to level. A lot of us weren't bothered by this. But it wasn't enough to make it mainstream.

 

Unfortunately, the world has changed and mainstream mmos are required to have fast paced leveling and easily obtainable... everything.

 

It makes me sad really, because I know we will never have anything like it again.

 

Yep...I'm back to EQII - cancelled my sub here until BW actually produces a game to play

[Emredrum]

I'm starting to think that Old School EQ had it right, not that it would work in today's market. I enjoyed SWTOR, don't get me wrong... but I enjoyed it more like a Mass Effect single player game and less like an MMORPG. The only real reason to group was to do the occasional heroic quest, or to do a flash point. Of course SWTOR's mechanics,graphics, story, etc are leaps and bounds above EQ, but EQ had that special something in it.

 

EQ in my opinion actually felt like a world to explore. There were no rails to guide you on leveling. You hunted, traveled, and explored to find new niches and leveling areas. The zones themselves and the monsters within them told the story without the need of quest logs. Things were actually hidden and quests required you to think, explore, and experiment. Back in EQ, you got together in groups just to explore dangerous areas to find out what was there.

 

 

Traveling through the world itself was an adventure.

 

There was mystery in the game. Player driven myths about incredibly rare mobs existed. Dungeons were difficult and maze like. You would bring a player with you just because you knew they could navigate a certain area well.

 

Death was a bad thing. You could lose all your gear and your level. You fear death and that made exploring new areas and taking risks more exciting. I will never forget the fear of crossing Kithicor forest and seeing the Sun set in the distance. What was normally a friendly zone for levels 5-8 because a terrifying nightmare of 40+ elite monsters at night. The whole zone became a living hell.

 

Hunting gear was important as early as when you broke away from your newbie zones. Every zone had interesting and useful gear drops that could last you 10+ levels.

 

The problem with the game?

 

It was hard. It took work and time to do a lot of what was necessary. If you were a jerk or troll, you got black listed and your reputation was ruined. It took months to level. A lot of us weren't bothered by this. But it wasn't enough to make it mainstream.

 

Unfortunately, the world has changed and mainstream mmos are required to have fast paced leveling and easily obtainable... everything.

 

It makes me sad really, because I know we will never have anything like it again.

 

I agree 120%. Eq1 just lacked modern graphics at the time. Very few appreciate what a true 'hell level' is. People do not bother to learn how to safely path through areas. Your epic was something you knew, and everyone else knew, meant you played the game well (enough).

 

Nothing has come close to a plane raid or even the skill needed for SSRA. Clerics in their own channels co-ordinating CHeals on the MT. True gamers excelled and bad players could not really buy their way to respect with as much ease as today.

 

Death had a consequence, you lost hard earned exp.

Death had a consequence, you had to go and get your corpse or lose your gear.

Death had a consequence, you had to bind somewhere smart.

 

EvE is probably the only game left that has a cost of death/failure.

 

Eq introducing instances in LDoN changed the game, turning it from World contested bosses/zones into made to fit parcels of entertainment.

 

I remember leaving a pouch with 1000 coppers in a noob area and watching them come past, pick it up then realize they did not have the strength to move...

 

/ooc Camp Check?

Edited February 2, 2012 by Emredrum

[Ariadna]

i think new generation mmo need to find a better, alternatives to the raiding farming gear end content approach.

[Emredrum]

i think new generation mmo need to find a better, alternatives to the raiding farming gear end content approach.

 

An example of EQ1 and grinding.

 

You get to the moon, enter the zone you wish to play in and in the zone chat, do a Camp Check.

 

People would announce where they were farming, and you chose your spot accordingly. If the 'zone' was fully camped, you moved on to another area. The ability to find another area, things to do, was part of Eq.

 

Games are too often served up to us (Instances are the death of MMOs) in a selfish manner. We need to return to the days of GMs running the worlds, and not the biggest whingers or forum trolls.

 

Do you remember Verants Customer service before SoE? /wrist

[Conjones]

i think new generation mmo need to find a better, alternatives to the raiding farming gear end content approach.

 

How about end game content is you get to play the mob. People who choose 'player run' version of x planet get to play against player run mobs. The people playing the mobs 'lvl' by defeating players, the more levels they accrue the higher level mobs they can choose to play. The player mob doesn't get to pick which mob they play, just the level.. if while playing the mob they don't damage the player sufficient to what a machine run mob would.. they loose points and can get degraded.

 

Progression something like Rat->bat->lizard......robot....elite...champ...?

 

meh just a thought

[ChokeForce]

I'm starting to think that Old School EQ had it right, not that it would work in today's market. I enjoyed SWTOR, don't get me wrong... but I enjoyed it more like a Mass Effect single player game and less like an MMORPG. The only real reason to group was to do the occasional heroic quest, or to do a flash point. Of course SWTOR's mechanics,graphics, story, etc are leaps and bounds above EQ, but EQ had that special something in it.

 

EQ in my opinion actually felt like a world to explore. There were no rails to guide you on leveling. You hunted, traveled, and explored to find new niches and leveling areas. The zones themselves and the monsters within them told the story without the need of quest logs. Things were actually hidden and quests required you to think, explore, and experiment. Back in EQ, you got together in groups just to explore dangerous areas to find out what was there.

 

 

Traveling through the world itself was an adventure.

 

There was mystery in the game. Player driven myths about incredibly rare mobs existed. Dungeons were difficult and maze like. You would bring a player with you just because you knew they could navigate a certain area well.

 

Death was a bad thing. You could lose all your gear and your level. You fear death and that made exploring new areas and taking risks more exciting. I will never forget the fear of crossing Kithicor forest and seeing the Sun set in the distance. What was normally a friendly zone for levels 5-8 because a terrifying nightmare of 40+ elite monsters at night. The whole zone became a living hell.

 

Hunting gear was important as early as when you broke away from your newbie zones. Every zone had interesting and useful gear drops that could last you 10+ levels.

 

The problem with the game?

 

It was hard. It took work and time to do a lot of what was necessary. If you were a jerk or troll, you got black listed and your reputation was ruined. It took months to level. A lot of us weren't bothered by this. But it wasn't enough to make it mainstream.

 

Unfortunately, the world has changed and mainstream mmos are required to have fast paced leveling and easily obtainable... everything.

 

It makes me sad really, because I know we will never have anything like it again.

 

 

Take out world map / local map and mini map and you would get that feeling back. Not to the extent that the wonder EQ was, but this map and map marker system is the most boring thing ever implemented in mmo's.

[Kalfear]

Miss EQ1?

 

I miss parts of it. But there are other parts you couldnt pay me to play in a game again

 

Things I miss from EQ1:

 

Community community community! - I so miss seeing the screen roll by with active community all chatting away in zones. Todays modern games (not just TOR, Rift and WOW same way) are so lifeless and empty because no one chats in the chat. Its all micro groups on vent so you never meet and greet new people.

 

Slow Leveling! - I remember when I finally got my first level 50 character. I WAS SO PROUD. It felt like such a huge accomplishment that Id been looking forward to for literally 14 months time. Thats how it should feel, special and rewarding.

 

Ever since DAoC (and after) Ive really had no feeling of accomplishment from leveling as it goes by so fast! In dAoC it was 2 months. In SWG it was 3 weeks. DDO was 2.5 weeks. EQ2 was 5-6 weeks if solo, 3 weeks if grouped. WOW was 12 days. RIFT was 2.5 weeks. TOR as we seen was done in 5 days.

 

I miss looking at that maxed out person and being impressed at their dedication and determination.

 

Downtime between fights (group fights) - This links with the community aspect. The downtime of EQ seemed like a bane at athe time and was HORRID if you were solo. But if you were grouped, this is when everyone laughed and chated and interacted. Friends were made more often then not. Now a day you breeze through fight to fight to fight with no downtime that you cant chat. Thus its just a empty feeling.

 

Its funny, I read the vocal minority (the casuals that demand fast and sloppy) calling others power gamers and hardcore and other names they think bother them but how are they any different? OK they play less hours but they also dont talk, interact, build community. They just run from combat to combat silently killing non stop.

 

LOL, their playstyle is every bit as hardcore and powergaming as those they insult daily.

 

What I DONT MISS from EQ:

 

XP loss at death

Courpse runs

Forced grouping (no being forced to join a guild is not a answer to this issue, in fact it might be veiwed as a even bigger negative then the forced grouping itself)

Black Burrow Trains

Unrest trains

Elitists (well I dont miss these from any game really)

Spider Silk for crafting

 

EQ wasnt perfect but it was great in many areas. Its a shame that modern games do look at EQ for its great qualities anymore.

 

If TOR had slower leveling, greater downtime between fights for groups so you could interact and meet people, and a greater community.

 

Why Id never again look for a MMORPG for at least 2-3 years minimum. Probably longer as if it took 4 months to max out a character (playing 25h/week on average), Id be here for 2 year 8 months GUARENTEED minimum just to get through the storylines once. That doesnt even include extra time from updates and expansions.

[Goretzu]

An example of EQ1 and grinding.

 

You get to the moon, enter the zone you wish to play in and in the zone chat, do a Camp Check.

 

People would announce where they were farming, and you chose your spot accordingly. If the 'zone' was fully camped, you moved on to another area. The ability to find another area, things to do, was part of Eq.

 

Games are too often served up to us (Instances are the death of MMOs) in a selfish manner. We need to return to the days of GMs running the worlds, and not the biggest whingers or forum trolls.

 

Do you remember Verants Customer service before SoE? /wrist

 

 

 

That is something EQ1 certainly had breadth, with a lot of newer MMOs the closer to maximum level you get the small the world gets, in some cases becoming literally tiny once you hit the maximum level.

 

There's loading of thing from EQ1 I wouldn't want to see in a new MMO, but equally there are a lot of things I would that just don't make an apperance these days.

[Grimnoire]

Yes I too have a special place in my heart for eq1. My current mmo buddies roll their eyes when I start off on an story about epic wins the cost of death the sense of danger. Remember sneaking your rogue solo into the plain of hate to get a piece for your epic weapon. This plain was an extremely dangerous place, one wrong step and the entire zone would come crashing down on your raidi, everyone dead hopefully some necro got off a feign death and could rez one cleric. You didn't have glowies over npc's heads telling you they had a quest, you either talked to everyone you saw or someone told you or you did some reseach on the net. There were right ways to do things and wrong ways, if you didn't learn the right way you got a rep and didn't get groups. Classes where unique (originally), the only class that could do it all was the bard and you needed skills to pull that off. There where many factions, step to close to the wrong one and pop your dead, now you spend the next hour trying to figure out how to get your corpse away from the thing that killed you. Frustrating yes, steep learning curve yup, but once you learned the ropes of your class you had status, not status points but word of mouth community status. "Hey I heard you can solo Phinny, could you help me get my xx for my epic?. "Sure the rate is 50 plat". It died though, idiots couldn't get groups and with out a group much content was out of reach. They blurred the lines between classes.

 

EQ2 meh, initially they where trying to have their cake and eat it too. Started out aimed at the console crowd, was a mess. They fixed that, but it never had the magic, just the grid.

 

SWTOR great game, love it. Many of the annoyances and time sinks of other mmo have been addressed. For instance, I can send my pet after some harvest item and keep on running. I can dismount my mount directly into cover, I don't have to "get off it first". You don't have to mindlessly harvest junk nodes over and over and 'maybe' get a skill point. These come to mind at the moment, but there are many other nuances that I love.

 

Now on the other hand, it plays like it's space combat... a game on rails. You start on a world and just keep riding the triangles till your onto the next planet. I can live with that, the stories are interesting and the dialog entertaining and humorous. But I fear the 50 wall. No more planets, no more story, yes there will be more content.. but I doubt its release will keep pace with consumption. Play pvp you say? IMHO, pvp shouldn't be in an mmo unless it's racial and on a dedicated server. To those who enjoy it, great more power to you, but the effect it has on PVE is horrid. Why? PVP leads to class balancing in a way that destroys their uniqueness. For all the pvp'rs to be happy every class has to have a counter to ever other class, else they'll be clogging up the forums with their "reroll, quit, xxx sucks, xxx hates us" tantrums. Leave the class defining characteristics in the classes, let them play on a free for all world give them what ever rules they need to succeed. Huttball or capture the flag or what ever it is, is that part of a world or just a side game? PVP generally boils down to a groups of people who master a services of maneuvers waiting for the right combination/situation to occur.

 

But I digress, love the game... please don't ruin it, keep the content flowing, add new stories, add open ended content.

 

Bioware look to CCP for ideas on how to deal with and interact with the community, keep the channels open and be honest, we can take it. Bioware call an emergency fix an emergency fix, we won't quite because it's called something alarming, labeling everything maintenance is an insult to our intelligence. To those upset about down time, it happens especially when a mmo is new to market. Expect the unexpected down time, go watch a movie or pet your dog, take a chill pill.

 

Oh wait I was telling eq1 stories wasn't i, sorry about the other stuff.

 

anyone wanna buy a 110 mill + sp toon in eve?

 

Wow, i feel like I wrote this post. (although my eve toon is only 60mil SP).

 

This x 10000

[supertouch]

corpse runs, experience loss, mob trains, and other elements are aggravating at the time but you really learn to appreciate them later on.

 

everything is so sterile these days.

[timewatch]

I have always enjoyed corpse runs, trains and hell levels. I hear others complaining, but to me, they are only announcing they suck.

 

One thing I loved about eq1, was the zones were crowded. I remember going down the oasis at level 15ish during launch, and there were piles of people camped along the beach area. It actually look like a real beach with everyone enjoying the water. The beach was a safe area and people were pulling mobs there. Nowadays, you don't see anyone out there in the world. Even WoW, you only see the ocassional newbie trailing a high level character being power leveled.

[SolGravion]

Cant wait for march, EQ F2P!

[Mekrath]

Cant wait for march, EQ F2P!

 

I loved EQ at the time, but the subscription fee isn't what's holding me back from playing it right now

[SolGravion]

I loved EQ at the time, but the subscription fee isn't what's holding me back from playing it right now

 

Good for you.

[supertouch]

again, everquest is 13 years old and was in its prime almost a decade ago. it's not the same game.

 

here's hoping everquest next goes back to its roots.

[EternallSlumber]

Class balancing, redesigned existing zones, and instanced content ruined EQ.

[TheHeadCapper]

I was thinking about how much i liked Ultima 4 back in the day, found a copy of the full ultima series instealled and........

 

reallized i was wearing rose colored glasses.

[supertouch]

your frame of reference changes. why would you expect to experience a 30-year-old game the same way?

[SolGravion]

your frame of reference changes. why would you expect to experience a 30-year-old game the same way?

 

Dunno, I can still hook up the oldschool NES and enjoy myself, after getting the carts to work. I think im somewhere on my 50th play through of the first final fantasy (granted its on a gba now) and I still love it.

[supertouch]

mmo content is fundamentally different. things like outdated graphics and a lack of community can impair your enjoyment of an mmo.

[SolGravion]

mmo content is fundamentally different. things like outdated graphics and a lack of community can impair your enjoyment of an mmo.

 

Graphics can impact your enjoyment. Not mine, and I know im not alone on that.

[supertouch]

it depends on the game. i still enjoy quite a few games from older generations Edited February 3, 2012 by supertouch

[LasCruces]

The problem with today's MMOs is that leveling is way too fast. It should take months to hit max level rather than weeks. Why go through all of the trouble of creating a world only to have most of your time spent at max level going to a raid instance. A company could make a lot of money simply creating a game where the game starts at max level and put all of their money into making end-game raids. That seems to be what a majority of people want. I'd prefer more time be spent in the actual world rather than in a raid but different strokes for different folks.

[Amdarius]

This.

 

Everquest was painful to play. Anyone seriously defending it simply cannot remember how they felt the first time 50 bard decided to spend his day *********** your **** up, or any of the other innumerable scenarios when the game was pretty much designed to beat you into the dirt and prevent you from getting to all of its content.

 

 

Wrong. I laughed hilariously the first time a 50 bard trained me with SGs. Then I spent the rest of the day keeping my eye out for it. Of course, EQ actually HAD customer service, so those bards would get reported and actually get suspended/banned fairly quickly once the play nice policies were in place. In SWTOR if somebody is griefing you, you better just deal with it because Bioware has the most atrocious customer service in the history of gaming.

 

Players that can't handle "other people" ruining their fun absolutely belong in SWTOR, which is really a single player game with co-op opportunities.

 

Those of us that like worlds and community prefer games where stuff like having SGs trained on you can happen. Then you remember the character who did it and he pays the price in reputation (or becomes a legend, like Fansy --- if you don't remember Fansy, then google it for some laughs).

[Kaliv]

This thread had me thinking for a while about the concepts of MMOs and how I would attempt to create one that would be successful. Looking at it in the terms of research by doing things like the 5 whys...it made me think about beginning concepts like that is the purpose of MMOs...or atleast what should the focus be on MMOs. By classifying the focus and ensuring that all design is based around it can really change how a game is developed.

 

Without wasting too much time, I'm going off memory here to think about what Blizzard's vison statement is for WoW. And I could be mistaken...but it's something about developing the most epic game ever. And then when I think about what does a MMO offer over single-player or multi-player games...the term epic always surfaces. But what should be epic?

 

...That seems to be what a majority of people want...

 

And here is where I think the problem arises. You can't rely on people. The reason EQ seems to get quoted so much is that they had nothing to reference...not even the fans. And games like EQ and notably SWG turned for the worst...is because developers started listening to players...when in actuality they should be referencing thier development documents to ensure what players are asking for is in line with thier doctrine, vision, and mission. Any successful sfotware development will have had plenty of effort in creating the plan...why reject it after launch? Surely a lot of thought went into class balance and major issues such as that.

 

But I regress...the main point I wanted to get back to was the term epic. And my perception of what games focus on to be epic in my opinion is misplaced. Thier focus is on making people feel that thier character is epic...the hero. Especially look at TOR. Your character is the savior of everywhere he goes...every planet...every outpost...every farm. This is what is rediculous becuase your heroism doesn't change the environment...it just gains you experience points. So I question...what should be epic? The world? The community through guilds? The risk/reward through actual feats?

 

This focus on what is epic is making MMOs bland. Games are listening to players who want to be epic...and there lies the problem. Max level is short periods of time. Quests that don't change environment. Armor issues. Class balance issues. Get the focus right in development...issues fall away.

 

-2 cents-