Figured this would be a flame thread. And back when I use to raid and group...I probably would care that my skill tree was optimal. At one point, I put some thought into it. Now, I just want to log in...have things set up the way I left it, and play with what little time I have. If later I change my mind and want a full respec...then I spend the cash I have to spend to get it done...I've already made the decision I didn't want the free one. Kind of like going into an ice cream shop. When I use to care about optimizing the taste for my pallet, I'd read the menu. Now I just want to drive in, order vanilla and sit at the same table I always sit at. If it's at all possible, and maybe it's unavoidable...but can't we offer some vanilla? Give me the option to deny a respect? That's all I was asking for.

One things that really irks me is when I log into the game to find all my skill points have been refunded to me. I just want to log in and start playing...but instead, I have to spend time trying to remember what skills I chose and why...and then try to remember what abilities they make and where I had them placed on my bars...multiplied across alternate toons. Time not well spent. Constructively...wouldn't a better option be that I log in...get notified that I'm being offered a chance to respect my skills and say "no thanks"? I would appreciate that option. /rant off

On a bright note, I think I misread the requirements to get the title. I thought you had to do one of each: flashpoint, hardmode easy/hard, and an operation (and thus require a 50). However, it appears that you just have to do one 8 times. With that in mind, I rolled a new toon...never tried an operative. It was quite fun until the final cutscene on Hutta stopped working. What a pain. So now I sit trying multiple methods of the dreaded repair "feature" to see if I can get the game to operate properly. Bitter sweet I suppose.

Obviously I'm one of the people that didn't get copied, or else I wouldn't be in this thread. But what I don't quite understand...is why the term "correctly" keeps getting flown around. There are three parts to the survey: Forum Name, Server, and Character Name. Seeing how I have graduated kindergarten, I would think I know how to at least spell my name...correctly. So that basically narrows it down to knowing where my character lives...which seems simple enough to look up and verify if I've forgetten. So I'm a bit confused about this "correctly" statement. Is it to say that players don't know how to spell thier name or is there more to it? Surely there must be some error between the interface that the player sees to fill out and the database the information is sent to.

I was wondering why I could want to buy a customization item if my companion is wearing a helmet and I'll never see the benefit of the item.

"Shut him up or shut him down..." or "plug the professor into the hyperdrive".

There are some companions that are harder to gear up than others. Droids are in a niche by themselves...so hand-me downs don't work. Take that into consideration if you're budgeting your credits for something else like a speeder. And for Troopers, upgrading Tanno Vik's weapon is a pain...as well as Yuun's weapon. I never see anything on the GTN for thier weapon type that has Aim. If they ever do show up, I expect they will be very expensive because how rare they are. But not all is lost. Once you get to Voss, there is an optional quest in the second area that rewards one weapon choice for all companions. I chose to upgrade Tanno Vik...although it would have been nice to also get a weapon for Yuun. All the other companions have an assortment of weapons throughout the game. I've heard that the Jedi Consulor has an issue with upgrading Qyzen Fess's weapons. That quest on Voss should give you the option to get him a decent 45+ weapon.

I don't mean this in a flaming way...but I think your perception is skewed. The game is already tailored to soloing. Granted...there are some group-only activities in the game...but the majority is solo. I'm just about 50 myself...and for the most part, I've done it mainly by soloing. I've completed all the class quests solo. Most of the planet main story lines were completed solo...but sometimes I ran into someone at the same point as me and we teamed up to do it quicker. Note...I could have soloed all the content...but being a MMO, might as well interact with other players. Now, if the quest says heroic...well, at the higher levels you'll need to group. I've never run into a heroic quest that needed to be complete for either a class quest or a planet main story line. They have all been side optional quests. The rewards are pretty standard as well...usually 3 commendations or a lotto chest. Granted...I've only played a handful of different classes. So perhaps I haven't played your particular class. But for sure a Trooper Commando has no issues getting to 49 solo and hitting all the main content. If you are struggling...change your strategies. Sometimes different companions can make all the difference. I frequently pull out a different companion based upon the type of mob I'm fighting. One companion doesn't fit all encounters equally.

This thread had me thinking for a while about the concepts of MMOs and how I would attempt to create one that would be successful. Looking at it in the terms of research by doing things like the 5 whys...it made me think about beginning concepts like that is the purpose of MMOs...or atleast what should the focus be on MMOs. By classifying the focus and ensuring that all design is based around it can really change how a game is developed. Without wasting too much time, I'm going off memory here to think about what Blizzard's vison statement is for WoW. And I could be mistaken...but it's something about developing the most epic game ever. And then when I think about what does a MMO offer over single-player or multi-player games...the term epic always surfaces. But what should be epic? And here is where I think the problem arises. You can't rely on people. The reason EQ seems to get quoted so much is that they had nothing to reference...not even the fans. And games like EQ and notably SWG turned for the worst...is because developers started listening to players...when in actuality they should be referencing thier development documents to ensure what players are asking for is in line with thier doctrine, vision, and mission. Any successful sfotware development will have had plenty of effort in creating the plan...why reject it after launch? Surely a lot of thought went into class balance and major issues such as that. But I regress...the main point I wanted to get back to was the term epic. And my perception of what games focus on to be epic in my opinion is misplaced. Thier focus is on making people feel that thier character is epic...the hero. Especially look at TOR. Your character is the savior of everywhere he goes...every planet...every outpost...every farm. This is what is rediculous becuase your heroism doesn't change the environment...it just gains you experience points. So I question...what should be epic? The world? The community through guilds? The risk/reward through actual feats? This focus on what is epic is making MMOs bland. Games are listening to players who want to be epic...and there lies the problem. Max level is short periods of time. Quests that don't change environment. Armor issues. Class balance issues. Get the focus right in development...issues fall away. -2 cents-

This is why MMOs today have an accelerating leveling system and risk vs reward doesn't compare. Because developers see the need to attract new people to the community and get them up to speed with the current community. If people can't get current, then they'll quit. So games today revolve around end-content and look forward to the next expansion. In order to make that work...the focus of the game needs to change...which is what we call the next-generation of MMOs.

This... I believe it was 5 years after EQ2 playing that I went back to EQ, and then remembered why I looked so forward to EQ2 coming out. But still...no other game be it DAOC, FFVI, EQ2, or WOW have stories I remember as fond as EQ. The mechanics of the game weighed risk vs reward higher than anything that has come after it. Combined with it being so new, community had to come together more to help make it succeed. But now that some of those wished for innovations are realities...games can't succeed without them being implemented at launch. I guess it's kind of like life...people remember the good times of high school or college, but would never wish to return to that age to repeat it.

Under 4X's traits...the game states that he has +5 Scavenging Critical. However, the last few times I've logged off, I've had 3 of my companions all go out on the same leve Scavenging missions. When I log back in, all of them has some amount of goods...except for 4X...he has a total failure and returns nothing. Perhaps his skill should say -50 Scavanging Critical.

I agree...I would really like to be able to gather while in combat. Atleast...if I haven't actively engaged in attacking or healing my group during an encounter, I shouldn't be toggled as in combat. Many times I'd be half way through the gathering process (not in combat), just to have other members of my group engage in combat...result, I can't gather. Very stupid. If I'm not actively in combat...then I shouldn't be toggled in combat just because someone in my party wants to rush ahead. Not fair for the gatherer, and not fair for the people that want to move along. As it stands, it's a lose lose.

The more I think about this word balanced and people either for or against slicing being where it should be...the more I realize that we can't know until we do studies on other gathering skills. We're comparing one gathering skill to it's pre-nerf status...or in my case, to itself. If we want to consider the slicing in the sense of balance...we need to do in-depth studies of the other skills and compare in like units. Slicing provides a good baseline for a start, as I believe the optimal comparison would be in credits...but actually anything common will do. As it stands now...mission are fine to employ crews full-time, but the real profit is from gathering. There really is no need to search for that perfect circle. When adventuring in both Tantooine and Alderaan...there were plenty of nodes to keep me busy and really slow down my actual adventuring. Especially on Alderaan...many times I didn't even have to fight to collect a node. Combine slicing with another gathering skill...and you'll never find time to fight if you are concentrated on gathering every node you see...as there is practically a node always on my radar in those two zones alone.

The overall goal that I started with was not to show which missions were the most profitable...but to prove the nerf was too strong (of which now I'm undecided). To that end...I'd need to collect more data and parse it out differently to answer you question...because my setup isn't necessary built for you question. However, right now I'm just enjoying the game and not doing any more research. Holiday is over for work and my graduate classes are starting back up. On another note. Might as well just send all your companions out when they are available. Cutting them short on thier missions doesn't net any credit lose. You should notice that when you cancel a mission, the credits to fund the mission are returned back to you. Atleast, that is what I have noticed. But then again, I've seen other strange things in this game as well...such as selling something on the auction house for 7K and gaining 8.4K for the sale. Must be tips.

I believe his intention is that missions are a suppliment from your adventures. The real profitability for any gathering skill is going out adventuring and gather nodes yourself. Which is quite another argument from what many believed Bioware was promoting before release. And he is right...gathering yourself is where the profitability is. However...and I don't believe anyone has taken on this task to date, because it realizes on a more dynamic metric...is the profitability of other gathering missions...such as scavenging. If you wish to make a comparison...one would have to put it in like units...such as credits. If someone would like to take on this task...gather samples from each class doing missions...and note how much output you gain from those missions. Then either vendor the gains...or more likely...check the average price on the auction house (GTN?) and put the results in credits. Only then...go make bold statements about how other gathering missions compare to slicing and how balanced they are.

I didn't see where I said moderate missions were not going to be profitable...but that rich missions would be more profitable than moderate ones. Granted...this was an assumption going into the study so I could set something up. Not all assumptions will come out correct...and this was one of them. I'm glad you asked, because I went back into my data and pulled out more analysis. Below is the analyzed data for Class 1-5. Class 6 has no rich missions. Granted, I didn't set up my study to pull these figures out...so I'm using smaller sample sizes which will reduce my beta. But the general realization is that moderate missions are more profitable than rich ones. Something I didn't factor in, however, is if the mission comes back with an extra reward such as a schematic...so I have no idea what those results would be. But from a net credit standpoint (using credits per minute for comparison)-- Class 1: 9.83 Moderate (19.56) Rich -- negative return Class 2: 11.96 Moderate 8.73 Rich Class 3: 29.47 Moderate 14.94 Rich Class 4: 25.80 Moderate 9.65 Rich Class 5: 16.23 Moderate 9.20 Rich

My companions do this as well. No trend as to when it'll happen or when it goes away. What I ended up doing is clicking on ther companion itself. If they tell me they don't want to talk to me...I just ignore the icon that says they do.

I started recording all my results once the nerf hit. My idea was to gather a ton of data and prove that Slicing now nets a negative return. However, once the data was obtained and proved to show long-term positive returns...I started look at my data in a different light -- How can I make Slicing benefitical to me? Here as some assumption I made going into data collecting...so my data isn't totally comprehensive. Assumptions: 1) Mission gathering for Augments is worthless, so don't bother with them...you never know what you are going to get. 2) Rate of return doesn't make a difference depending on crew member doing the mission. 3) Rich missions will net more money than Moderate missions. 4) Schematics don't make the mission a complete success, because thier value to me is inconsequential (use for further missions to which data is gathered or they are given to guild mates). Now of course, some of the initial assumptions were a bit off, but that is how I collected my data. Each class sampling had 30 samples (plenty for a significant beta)...and my skill in Slicing was already maxxed at 400. Within each Class, I divided out from Moderate to Rich. Although I was looking at my data from a Class point of view, I also wanted to use an experimental design approach to see if within the sets, there were significant factors. Across the range of Classes, there were no significant factors from Moderate to Rich, but within Classes, some missions seemed to have more benefitical results. At a top level review, to gather 30 samples of each class totaled a bit over 51 hours of slicing. With 3 companions able to be actively slicing at the same time, that's roughly 17 playing hours. In that amount of time: 12,262 credits total net profit 238 credits average per mission 13 credits average per minute From that data...it looks pretty bleak post-nerf for Slicing. In my 17 hours of adventuring, I managed to net over 200K credits around level 30. So an extra 12K doesn't seem like a lot. But that is neither here nor there as a lot of agruements are about Slicing not being designed as a money maker from missions. Also, a player isn't going to equally distribute thier missions from Class 1 through 6. So here is the breakout per Class -- note, failure rate is defined as the mission not returning a positive reward. Class 1: 9.40 credits average per mission 3.00 credits average per minute 43% failure rate Class 2: 74.67 credits average per mission 12.51 credits average per minute 60% failure rate Class 3: 147.07 credits average per mission 14.56 credits average per minute 27% failure rate Class 4: 233.10 credits average per mission 13.22 credits average per minute 23% failure rate Class 5: 777.60 credits average per mission 27.51 credits average per minute 17% failure rate Class 6: 186.37 credits average per mission 4.91 credits average per minute 37% failure rate As can be seen, Class 5 is definately the tier you want to stick with for slicing. The reason being is that the failure rate is the lowest...combined with a certain mission that seemed to crit more often. That mission cost 1930 credits...which I believe is "Finding Our Way". I had it crit for 7892 credits once...and it rarely failed. Granted...you can only run that mission once every half hour or so...and it doesn't always come back as an option once the mission is over. So I would combine it with Class 4 missions. Both the 1175 credit and 1250 credit missions seemed decent compared with other options. Some odd things that I discovered is why the first two Classes have such high failure rates. It seems odd with a 400 Slicing skill level. Also, the rich mission for Class 1 always returned as a failure for me. Not sure why. Additionally, one would think that unlocking higher missions would be benefitial. As can be seen, Class 6 isn't better than Class 5, and I didn't find any significant data to prove the rich missions net better results than moderate missions. In fact, many of my wealthy missions can back as failures, as I didn't count the other goodies being returned as a non-failure. So, you're not going to get rich running slicing missions, but there are a few things you can do to make it more profitable for you. In the long-term, you are going to make money, but not sure if it's worth the hassle of keeping your crew members actively slicing...as the results are actually low. One would have to do an analysis of alternatives, which I didn't accomplish. But I'm hearing other gathering/trade skill professions are profitable is making credits is your motive. Additionally, this study doesn't look into gathering slicing nodes while out adventuring. Whereas they seemed abundant on level 30 planets...each node varied between a Class 2 and Class 3, so par for the level I was adventuring in. Granted, the results of opening a case seemed lower than the mission returns...but I didn't track it. Hope this helped...if you are looking at being a Slicer. -------------- Edit: Found an error in the average profit per minute calculation. Changed previous results by tenths...so no big error. I was using someone else's spreadsheet to start my analysis and never review thier calculations. I figured I should probably make sure everything was being calculated correctly seeing as I was publishing results some people were looking at.

Your comparison of 90K to 20K credits has no bearing. Since the nerf, I'm been trying to do some research and have been logging all my missions. The skinny of it is that I'm getting a sample size of 30 (which should provide significance) of each level and diversing it between moderate to rich...trying to see if there are any trends. I've completed my runs on class 1 through class 3...and have seen positive results. Although not all the analysis is completed...I'm sure you want to see some results (dispite my wanting to wait until I've completed all the analysis I wanted to do). But below are some average numbers, without perspective. Class 1: +3.00 credits per mission minute Class 2: +12.58 credits per mission minute Class 3: +10.10 credits per mission minute After 37 hours of missions, I've netted a total of 210 credits (roughly 17.84 credits per mission minute) from slicing since the nerf. So when I say your comparison of 90K to 20K credits has no bearing...the difference over 12 hours of gameplay (3 crew members) is only an added 210 credits, not 70K...and that's with a skill level of 400 in slicing. I don't foresee any economic crisis in SWTOR from my slicing, aka printing money. And I have no mats from slicing to craft further goods either for sale or personal use. I'd say most of my money is coming from adventuring, and selling my loot...at which my main character is sitting on about 120K credits (post-nerf). Note, that when the patch hit...all the money I gained from pre-nerf was spent on mounts...or giving it to others to help when buy thier license (Bioware's method of taking money out of the economy).

This is something I don't understand...probably because one would have to answer what the purpose of crafting is. To which we'll probably get a variety of answers. Some may say to gear your toon. Others may say to play the economy and get rich. Still others...perhaps enjoyment of a second view of the game. For all MMOs though, the problem in balancing adventure loot with crafted items. From the short time that SWTOR has been out...it seems that adventuring seems to outfit your toon fine at the pace that you gain levels...making crafting kind of moot. So it's at the end game that crafting will probably shine, as it does in a variety of other MMOs. Which I'm assuming is where rich after the onset comes in play. But back to slicing...because I'm still confused. To put things back into perspective...what does slicing benefit at the end game to make me rich. Obvisouly...other crafting skills *should*...so to be balanced...slicing *should* provide some benefit. If it's in the random augment...what about half of the other missions I have for the skill? All the other gathering skills bring back useful mats for every mission...does slicing only allow for half the missions to be beneficial in the end game where I'm supposedly to make my money?

Please no. Level capping any crafting skill is not only annoying, it's frustrating. If I'm capable of getting mats to craft an item higher than my level...so be it. It's my time and money that went into being able to do so...whether the item is for a friend or to market. Linking adventuring to crafting levels just tends to be a frustration. And a level limit more than likely won't be tied to just slicing...it'll be tried to crafting across the board...everyone loses.

Uh...if the market is saturated and I need mats for Bio...then why wouldn't I just take 300 credits and buy them off the market? Makes more sense than spending 800 credits knowing the average return is 600 credits worth of mats that are really worth 300 credits. In the end...I have what I need...mats. Your example of slicing is that I'm spending 800 credits for I can lose 200 credits and then buy something I need. Why not just take my 800 credits and buy what I need? The comparision of slicing to any other gathering mission doesn't make sense. With other gathering missions, you get something in return that is useable. In slicing...you're trying to make more credits to have more purchasing power than you had before. I can't craft anything out of nothing...so if I need more mats, I do missions for them. If I don't care about crafting anything...I need money...not mats.

I was using Dorne for a while because 4X didn't seem to be working very well for me and I had her gear up pretty good. But as a Combat Medic...there were some areas where I just needed more fire power and Dorne wasn't cutting it. So I boosted 4X's gear up and here is what I noticed. 4X takes a lot more damage than Dorne did...but at the same time, I don't have to heal myself as much...because he's taunting. He takes more damage because more people are shooting him due to his taunts. My play style changed a bit to where I start CC'ing people...which 4X will ignore (thankfully better than stupid people I group with). Once I changed my play style and geared 4X, he has been my companion of choice as a Combat Medic. With a lack of tank...I'm also using him for FPs with a friend. Working very well.