Please, Don't Roll on Items for Another Class in Your Team

[Varghjerta]

Then why can't you respect the fact that many players view their companions as extensions to their character? This isn't really different than saying that the earpiece slot is intrinsically of less value than the chest slot because it doesn't have armor.

 

Vette is not a person. When you yell at a player because they put a piece of armor or a blaster on Vette, you're not yelling at Vette - you're yelling at the player. Putting an item on my companion is not somehow disrespecting you as a person because I'm prioritizing Vette over you and she's not real - I'm prioritizing my gameplay over yours, just as you're trying to do to me when you choose to roll on an item.

 

Actually when you take something that is for advancing in group play over a real player so you can have it for solo play that is just disrespectful.

 

People with youre mindset is the reason for games get dumbed down not because the game is hard but because people can't behave and a splendid reason why dual AC and dual specc shouldnt be added

[VanorDM]

My problem with that logic is that you don't have your companion active at all times

 

True, but she's active more often then she isn't, by a extremely wide margin. I guess the thing is, I go into a FP looking for gear that will help me in the long run. The effect it has right now simply isn't a factor, IMO.

 

But there are lots of ways to get that gear, that I think are even more efficient because it doesn't rely on random drops. Like crafting mods, and buying gear with commendations.

 

True, but those same sources can be used to gear up your character as well.

 

In my mind, I have at best a equal shot at the item as anyone else. I would never wait until everyone else selected greed, then hit Need, without saying something first.

Edited January 30, 2012 by VanorDM

[Creed_Buhallin]

My problem with that logic is that you don't have your companion active at all times, for instance in a flashpoint, Kira's increased DPS doesn't count for anything, where as if it's an upgrade for someone's actual character, it will be on, all the time, passively providing bonuses.

This gets brought up a lot, but I don't think it's valid.

 

If I'm a healer Merc, should I be able to roll on a blaster that's a DPS upgrade? I'm not going to be dealing damage in a flashpoint, so my increased DPS doesn't count. But I doubt anyone here would raise an eyebrow an a Merc, even a healing one, rolling on a new blaster drop. The same could easily be said for anyone's armor or Endurance but a tank - assuming the run is going well, nobody should be taking much damage, so should they not be allowed to roll for those items because they won't count for anything?

[StonySpider]

I have been assured by many on this thread that their actions in a group the aid their personal solo experience or appearance over a full player controlled character will not be penalized. As they continue to say it over and over, I can only assume that they are accurate and there will be no community policing.

 

Just because there isn't anyone stopping you from doing it, doesn't mean you should.

 

But, if you somehow don't see that, you should think about jumping off a building, I assure you the only resistance you'll get is from the pavement.

[Loendar]

Actually when you take something that is for advancing in group play over a real player so you can have it for solo play that is just disrespectful.

 

People with youre mindset is the reason for games get dumbed down not because the game is hard but because people can't behave and a splendid reason why dual AC and dual specc shouldnt be added

 

Why? This isn't a game about respect it is all about me and how I choose to play. You are just here to facilitate a needs to an end and my companion is just as important to my game world as you are to yours.

[VanorDM]

I assure you the only resistance you'll get is from the pavement.

 

Well to be fair, there's wind resistance as well... Not that it will help much.

[StonySpider]

Why? This isn't a game about respect it is all about me and how I choose to play. You are just here to facilitate a needs to an end and my companion is just as important to my game world as you are to yours.

 

Yes, a Massively Multiplayer Online game, is about YOU, and how YOU play.

 

I suppose the rest of us are all just annoying NPCs then?

[Galbatorrix]

This gets brought up a lot, but I don't think it's valid.

 

If I'm a healer Merc, should I be able to roll on a blaster that's a DPS upgrade? I'm not going to be dealing damage in a flashpoint, so my increased DPS doesn't count. But I doubt anyone here would raise an eyebrow an a Merc, even a healing one, rolling on a new blaster drop. The same could easily be said for anyone's armor or Endurance but a tank - assuming the run is going well, nobody should be taking much damage, so should they not be allowed to roll for those items because they won't count for anything?

 

 

Most stats that increase DPS will also increase your heals. So, bad example.

[Loendar]

Just because there isn't anyone stopping you from doing it, doesn't mean you should.

 

But, if you somehow don't see that, you should think about jumping off a building, I assure you the only resistance you'll get is from the pavement.

 

This is literally my favorite comment ever.

 

I should apologize to you Stony because you came into this conversation way late and have no idea that I'm just going along with the most vocal majority and professing their views without all the couching they put around it to appear rationale.

[Cartumandua]

It's not your fault when someone acts without consideration, even if you didn't give them guidelines ahead of time.

 

Clarifying loot rules may be a wise practice (on p. 71, Caille recommends a 'loot macro'). But not doing so doesn't make poor behavior your fault. And a loot-grabberwon't be banned or punished by Bioware.

 

Sorry, I disagree. If you fall to discuss, then you risk someone with weird ideas acting on those ideas.

 

If there are no agreed loot rules, there are NO AGREED LOOT RULES.

 

See how that works?

 

You would like, and I would like, in a perfect world for their to be no crazy people, but this isn't a perfect world, and we both know it isn't a perfect world, so if we assume it is a perfect world, then it is significantly our fault if we are disappointed.

[StonySpider]

This gets brought up a lot, but I don't think it's valid.

 

If I'm a healer Merc, should I be able to roll on a blaster that's a DPS upgrade? I'm not going to be dealing damage in a flashpoint, so my increased DPS doesn't count. But I doubt anyone here would raise an eyebrow an a Merc, even a healing one, rolling on a new blaster drop. The same could easily be said for anyone's armor or Endurance but a tank - assuming the run is going well, nobody should be taking much damage, so should they not be allowed to roll for those items because they won't count for anything?

 

Well if there's a class in your group that actually uses blasters to do damage then yeah, he probably would get more use out of it than you would.

 

It's not like we give welfare money exclusively to millionaires (at least, we shouldn't), it goes to who needs, it (heh).

[Varghjerta]

Why? This isn't a game about respect it is all about me and how I choose to play. You are just here to facilitate a needs to an end and my companion is just as important to my game world as you are to yours.

 

Actually not in groups then it just isnt about you,

 

if you havent understood that the people in youre group are real people, While you are trying to do the content to advance further into just group content.

 

But it seem you are a very me me me me me person so i just say that i do disagree with that kind of mindset while teaming up with other real life players, basicly rolling need on everything you can possible use or even just disensemble or sell it for money because you can roll need for it and it can facilitate a need is just not valid in my opinion

Edited January 30, 2012 by Varghjerta

[Creed_Buhallin]

You obviously have not been in this conversation long. Plenty of people arguing your side have said it's none of anyone's business how they roll and what they win.

I could be wrong (and if I am, I apologize) but I believe the general sentiment behind that is it's not your business to DECIDE how I roll. Most of the people in this thread have explained how and what we would actually roll on, multiple times. I have a hard time seeing that translate into an "Yeah, I rolled need, and I don't care if you want to know why I'm not going to tell you" response.

The rest of what you said is dribble. More hyperbole that only proves further that you're just trying to justify your mass greed and entitlement (nothing dropped for ME, so I'll take this Guardian's chest piece for the plus 2 Endurance, Yar!).

Dude, calm down. You're really just making stuff up at this point. I treat each item individually. If the Guardian's chest has mods I can use, then yes, I believe that qualifies as "need". It could potentially even mean a bigger improvement than what the actual Guardian would get out of it, which is a reality you seem resolutely blind to. Oh, and I never say Yar! Unless it's Talk Like a Pirate Day, of course, but even then I usually only get one in for good form.

 

Nice, you already have it worked out for when you get black listed. Good to plan ahead I guess.

Yeah, I actually snuck into Bioware's office about six months ago and hacked that into the code - they had planned on just having the surname, but I knew that if I couldn't hide it I'd be in trouble.

 

Or, maybe I just know what the options are, and thought the whole thing through a little, which is more than the "We'll know your legacy name, so you'd better not make us mad!" crowd has actually done.

 

Really, I'm just trying to help - you're working so hard to intimidate people into your way of thinking, I hate seeing all that effort going to a plan that just won't work.

[Creed_Buhallin]

Yes, a Massively Multiplayer Online game, is about YOU, and how YOU play.

 

I suppose the rest of us are all just annoying NPCs then?

You need to ignore Leondar, Spider - he's just trolling.

[StonySpider]

This is literally my favorite comment ever.

 

I should apologize to you Stony because you came into this conversation way late and have no idea that I'm just going along with the most vocal majority and professing their views without all the couching they put around it to appear rationale.

 

Apology accepted, and now we can skip gleefully into the flashpoint filled sunset, secure in the knowledge that no matter what people think they'll find a way to work it out.

[Andryah]

My hope? A class-based rolling system would be nice (and, if an option, hugely popular), but introducing it takes more developer time than the ability to trade a BoP item within a team for a limited period. That option that won't deter the defiantly selfish but would help in many other cases.

 

(No specifically directed at the OP) Have you noticed a trend in MMOs communities?

 

Wanting the producer to be more and more intrusive on the game experience for them, so they don't have to do actual socially relevant things like discuss and work out loot rules before a group runs an instance for the loot.

 

Wanting automated class lockouts on loot, so that they do not have to have acutal meaninful conversations about loot rules for the group run before actually running the instance. Since it is relevant for companions to have loot that may not be specific to the class of the players character, it would be kind of dumb to lock out the option. If everyone in group agrees, then they agree and they run the instance.

 

And I'm sorry, but if you run in PUGS you accept the risk of issues with loot. No amount of pleading or whining on the forum is going to change that fact.

 

Next Bioware will be petitioned to decide for you what class you can roll (because someone perceives that there are too many of a class, or too few of a class), or which faction you can roll (because someone perceives there are too many of one faction and not enough of another).

 

 

Seriously, this is a game for grown-ups, not children. So can we please approach it from the standpoint of grown-ups?

[Loendar]

You need to ignore Leondar, Spider - he's just trolling.

 

It's Loendar and I'm not trolling. I'm making your case with you only removing the restriction on rolling need for cash that you are imposing.

[Creed_Buhallin]

Well if there's a class in your group that actually uses blasters to do damage then yeah, he probably would get more use out of it than you would.

He certainly would - but should he be prohibited from rolling on it, just because it won't apply much in the group situation?

 

More importantly, do you actually think that those who have brought up the point of "You can't roll for companions because they don't help in the flashpoint" would make the same argument in that situation? Because so far, nobody has - it's always been about companions. Which, to be honest, makes it look a lot more like something developed to support the conclusion (companions shouldn't get Need items) than an actual evaluation of the usefulness and whether it qualifies as "need".

[StonySpider]

He certainly would - but should he be prohibited from rolling on it, just because it won't apply much in the group situation?

 

More importantly, do you actually think that those who have brought up the point of "You can't roll for companions because they don't help in the flashpoint" would make the same argument in that situation? Because so far, nobody has - it's always been about companions. Which, to be honest, makes it look a lot more like something developed to support the conclusion (companions shouldn't get Need items) than an actual evaluation of the usefulness and whether it qualifies as "need".

 

Well those are the rules I kind of just naturally fell into because it felt right, prior to ever posting on the forums, so I'm not just making it up for the sake of argument.

 

You don't think that wanting to roll on items appropriate to two different classes even though you picked one could be construed as just a tad greedy?

[Varghjerta]

One example

in a group there is a commando and a vanguard

 

 

Vanguard gear drops the most absurd part here now is that some people are saying that the commando now is within his right to roll need on all vanguard gear because a companion can use it over the real player that will use it in the group.

 

So glad that this game have no x-server so i just can ignore and move on, even if it happen someone else in my guild or group that person that do that it will either way just get ignored

Edited January 30, 2012 by Varghjerta

[Creed_Buhallin]

Well those are the rules I kind of just naturally fell into because it felt right, prior to ever posting on the forums, so I'm not just making it up for the sake of argument.

 

You don't think that wanting to roll on items appropriate to two different classes even though you picked one could be construed as just a tad greedy?

No, I really don't. It's the way this game is designed. Companions are expected to be geared - that's why they have all the same slots we do, and those slots affect how well you can play. As far as I'm concerned, throwing a fit over someone trying to fill their companion's chest slot isn't any different than throwing a fit over trying to fill my character's earpiece slot.

 

I truly believe that SWTOR is different, and people haven't caught up to that yet. They're trying to apply loot rules from other games they know, and they're completely ignoring the extra complexities introduced by things like mods, orange items, and companions. I presented a Juggernaut/Marauder question back in the first few pages of this version, and not many people have taken it up - but if an orange heavy armor item drops, and a Marauder and Juggernaut will both strip the mods to put in their current orange armor, why is it any more "needed" by the Juggernaut than the Marauder just because it starts in a container marked "Heavy Armor"? Same thing goes for, say, a Sniper Rifle - an Operative uses a Blaster Rifle but not a Sniper Rifle. If they can move every stat from the Sniper to their current Blaster, and get just as much use, why doesn't that qualify as an equivalent "need" for either an Operative or a Blaster?

 

As far as I'm concerned, they're the same. And once you accept that, it all becomes a matter of who can use it more - if I only use 2 of 3 mods, or don't use the appearance, or you get +2 and I get +6, who "needs" it more? I'm not going to get into that - if it's an upgrade, you meet the bar to roll "need". I'm just a lot more open than some as to what qualifies as an upgrade.

[Elwacko]

A group should always explain rules BEFORE starting. That way if someone doesn't like them, they can leave.

[Loendar]

As far as I'm concerned, they're the same. And once you accept that, it all becomes a matter of who can use it more - if I only use 2 of 3 mods, or don't use the appearance, or you get +2 and I get +6, who "needs" it more? I'm not going to get into that - if it's an upgrade, you meet the bar to roll "need". I'm just a lot more open than some as to what qualifies as an upgrade.

 

The only thing you need to understand, Stony, is that if you are grouping with Creed (and others of his mindset) that you can't automatically assume that your definition of Need even remotely matches theirs.

 

They consider anything (with the exception of needing for coin - pointless distinction really) as being a Need for their character that grants equal rights over a player character in the group.

 

Now I have professed your position (Stoney's) for something over three iterations of this thread and have finally come to the realization that they are incapable of seeing things any other way.

 

The credo of the thread from their side has been 'fair' - it is 'fair' that everyone roll on almost everything because they can and the system allows it. Now they forget that it isn't fair really because they explode cash rolls from their equation, but don't let that bother you. It's fair.

 

So - when you see their position is really only 'mostly fair' and often just to them because they like it then it isn't any better (or one could argue worse) than only counting players in the mix.

[StonySpider]

No, I really don't. It's the way this game is designed. Companions are expected to be geared - that's why they have all the same slots we do, and those slots affect how well you can play. As far as I'm concerned, throwing a fit over someone trying to fill their companion's chest slot isn't any different than throwing a fit over trying to fill my character's earpiece slot.

 

I truly believe that SWTOR is different, and people haven't caught up to that yet. They're trying to apply loot rules from other games they know, and they're completely ignoring the extra complexities introduced by things like mods, orange items, and companions. I presented a Juggernaut/Marauder question back in the first few pages of this version, and not many people have taken it up - but if an orange heavy armor item drops, and a Marauder and Juggernaut will both strip the mods to put in their current orange armor, why is it any more "needed" by the Juggernaut than the Marauder just because it starts in a container marked "Heavy Armor"? Same thing goes for, say, a Sniper Rifle - an Operative uses a Blaster Rifle but not a Sniper Rifle. If they can move every stat from the Sniper to their current Blaster, and get just as much use, why doesn't that qualify as an equivalent "need" for either an Operative or a Blaster?

 

As far as I'm concerned, they're the same. And once you accept that, it all becomes a matter of who can use it more - if I only use 2 of 3 mods, or don't use the appearance, or you get +2 and I get +6, who "needs" it more? I'm not going to get into that - if it's an upgrade, you meet the bar to roll "need". I'm just a lot more open than some as to what qualifies as an upgrade.

 

Because if heavy armour drops with lots of strength, then the "item" (defined as the physical appearance and all the mods, because when you win a need roll you get both, you can't pick and choose) then the item, as programmed by Bioware into the loot table of the boss, is intended for a Juggernaut DPS, however, if there are none in the party then it's fair game for anyone that has the slightest use of it.

 

Maybe there should be expanded buttons. Like need for appearance/companion/mods that defers to the need roll but is above the greed roll. button in addition to need and greed. Or would everyone just end up pressing need because they might not get the item.

[ikinai]

The only thing you need to understand, Stony, is that if you are grouping with Creed (and others of his mindset) that you can't automatically assume that your definition of Need even remotely matches theirs.

 

They consider anything (with the exception of needing for coin - pointless distinction really) as being a Need for their character that grants equal rights over a player character in the group.

 

Now I have professed your position (Stoney's) for something over three iterations of this thread and have finally come to the realization that they are incapable of seeing things any other way.

 

The credo of the thread from their side has been 'fair' - it is 'fair' that everyone roll on almost everything because they can and the system allows it. Now they forget that it isn't fair really because they explode cash rolls from their equation, but don't let that bother you. It's fair.

 

So - when you see their position is really only 'mostly fair' and often just to them because they like it then it isn't any better (or one could argue worse) than only counting players in the mix.

 

 

No it's fair because everyone has an equal ability to roll on an item. You don't have to roll on it, but in all fairness you have the ability to do so. If it's restricted it is no longer fair, as it is restricted to only a few people.