MMO's, Where did it all go wrong? (long)

[LenaMarie]

I couldnt stand MMOs in the past. Some people have lives, and why should their sub money be worth less then those who dont and can spend hours in a online game? Thats the reality of it, no one in there right mind wants to come home from work and put on the MMO hat and goto work yet again Theres no fun in working two jobs while the other (MMOs) You pay them for the honor of working. Yeah right.

 

The real problem is the hardcore folks are realizing ever more no one cares about them, and no company is really going to risk alot of money in trying to recreate the days of Everquest where only basement dwellers where playing games, and probably wearing poofy Wizard hats while doing it. I've been playing since head start and my oldest char is only 42, and my alts are both 20-30.

 

That seems to be the ideal person for MMO designers to cater to. Why bother trying to keep up with the hardcore types who will blow through the game easily and demand new content every week when existing content will last a casual for over a year?

 

In the end this is Sociology at work here. Hardcore types make online games their life so they demand more challenge so they can extract their reward from overcoming hard work, where as people who have a rich full life off the MMOs get enough of that in their everyday life and thus dont need a video game to validate them.

Edited January 31, 2012 by LenaMarie

[Umbrex]

WALL OF TEXT CRITS FOR OVER 9000

 

[Enako]

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=83208

[Gehoornde]

hi guys, first of all i'll be drawing several parallels, i want to state that i do NOT play wow, i havent done for years and i will never be reinstalling it, but i will be taking a few examples from there (some good, some bad - timeline dependant)

 

(and no im not quitting, i still enjoy the PVE raiding but im already seeing alot of friends and guildies leaving, which naturally is not much fun)

 

so here we are, Launch month of Swtor, its all shiny, new - many of us have been waiting for it for 4 years, so we're thrilled right? - actually no, many of us are not thrilled, and here is why:

 

MMO's These days give everything away for nothing, nobody is special, theres no "sweet loot" you can really earn, the rakata gear (the only gear in the game that could take even a small bit of skill) is in many cases WORSE than its columi equivalent (the tier below) and where its better, its VERY margainal, theres no such thing as a L50 that isnt bristling with epics anymore, even playing semi casually you can experience all the game has to show in a couple of months (excluding rerolling alts, but really - no matter what bioware says, thats not a viable endgame model)

 

theres nothing to devote effort to, nothing to keep you logging in, yesterday i reached battlemaster (valor rank 60) and i did it well over 2 weeks later than many people, i've completed all the hard mode raid content (honestly it was very easy) and from what i've heard NMM isnt much of a step up

 

do you guys remember mmo's of a bygone age? where we were able to create our own content (daoc, swg) or where gear was something you could pride yourself on(WoW), when you NEEDED to grind all your blue set out before you could even look at a raid, you had to EARN the right to go and wipe for a week or two on each new boss, it felt epic - it had an amazing community, the whole atmosphere was on another level entirely, those lucky enough to get some coveted purple items would be gazed at wonderously by scores of people stood around the capital cities, everyone knew which guilds had killed what, which players had what item

 

and here we are now, where you can wander into a hard mode flashpoint and gain a tier 2 epic piece in 30 minutes, where gear is handed out so freely, that Tier 1 epics are actually completely skipped, where the stats are barely differentiable from one another tier to tier, and dont even get me started on the PVP stat

 

now i hear many of you saying "wow has all that stuff now, its fine, stop complaining", what you guys dont realise is that, yes, whilst wow did destroy much of what made their game great, splintering communities with cross server bg's, breaking server first interest by implementing cross server transfers, ruining immersion by being able to "queue" for an instance, and now even raids - wow did it AFTER it had already attracted and retained many millions of people, after it had implemented a whole host of great features complex and simple that swtor lacks (from simple things like the humble macro, guild banks, ui customisation, addons) to larger things such as Arenas, guild achievements + many others

 

who remembers running around a zone looking for crafting mats to make the right consumables for a given boss? i sure do, in Swtor we simply send our companions out, whilst we continue to run circles round the republic fleet (or imperial fleet) - thats another matter entirely, a capital "city" devoid of charm of personality, where you can simply run to the "mission deck" and enter any and all flashpoints/raid instances/warzones etc (our capital city feels like an instance, not part of a living breathing world, imps cant raid it, etc, its all wrong, wrong wrong wrong)

 

so now we have a game where everyone has the same gear more or less, theres nothing hard to earn (again, rakata is the only gear that could possibly take some small bit of skill or teamwork) and its WORSE or at the best incremental upgrades from easily obtainable columi/pvp gear

 

guys, WE CANT EVEN queue for warzones as a full group (basic functionality for any mmo!!), why is the game stopping me from having any kind of fun when i login? im FORCED to play with randoms, right now my day is: login, do 2 dailys, logoff - log back in if its a pve raid day and everything isnt cleared already, what is "fun" to do in the meantime? get zerged by imps on ilum? warzone with groups of complete randoms? opening RNG bags where people can get great rewards with little effort, or have the complete opposite happen?

 

I AM NOT ALLOWED TO CHOOSE WHICH WZ I WANT TO PLAY, im SICK of alderaan and voidstar, i get like 2 huttballs all day even if i queue like 20 times

 

i've already noticed a huge drop off in activity on my server, all the top guilds are struggling with activity/recruiting etc

 

i know alot of people will tell me "lol you rushed to 50, we're still enjoying alderaan!" and all that other stuff you love to say, i put this to you: what happens when you hit 50 and most of the other L50's already quit? when there is no tangible community at level cap to join? or are at the least less active, when guilds have already been destroyed by entropy, when players have left the game because theres basically little or no fun to be had (the one thing i get to enjoy in swtor is raiding atm, pvp is awful without full premades)

 

then theres all the other stuff (more bugs we all know about that i dont care to BEGIN listing) especially things like pressing an ability and it just doesnt work (what on earth?)

 

i WANT this game to succeed, we ALL do, i know so many people that are sick to the teeth of wow/other games/etc and really want a new home - im NOT asking for more and more content, what im asking for is functionality, it is FUN to logon and play in a full premade pvp group, it is FUN to play arena with some friends, its FUN to feel like my time invested is going to actually improve my character, rather than "maybe earn a sidegrade that everyone else already has with minimal effort anyway"

 

theres more stuff that i can think of which i wont go in to, because im sure someone has already said most of it before, i really wish i could be a fly on the wall @ developer meetings sometimes, i dont understand how these people think, players and community consistently have better ideas/vision/foresight than the people payed to make these games

 

edit: alot of people dont realise how much keeping the so called "hardcore" brings to a game and the community, additionally id like to point out that the time sinks are COMPLETELY wrong in this game, i would LOVE to have to opportunity to "sink" my time into full premade wz's, instead i have to sink my time into 5 loading screens when swapping planets

 

kind regards,

 

/agreed

[Kunra]

CU/NGE, period.

 

Nothing more needs to be said.

[Yowfatto]

I'm definitely a casual player and still haven't hit 50, hopefully in the next 2-3 weeks. Only time I have to play really is on weekends weekdays maybe an hour or two a day. I haven't even scratched the surface of this game yet so many have more than 1 50 already, how people get so much time to play is beyond me wish I could play this game as much.

 

Your post doesn't really apply to me, in fact by the time I hit 50 and actually get to do anything worth while there, and roll a new alt they'll have a ton of new content. This game really does cater to the casual player which for me is a god send.

[Frostbird]

hi guys, first of all i'll be drawing several parallels, i want to state that i do NOT play wow, i havent done for years and i will never be reinstalling it, but i will be taking a few examples from there (some good, some bad - timeline dependant)

 

(and no im not quitting, i still enjoy the PVE raiding but im already seeing alot of friends and guildies leaving, which naturally is not much fun)

 

so here we are, Launch month of Swtor, its all shiny, new - many of us have been waiting for it for 4 years, so we're thrilled right? - actually no, many of us are not thrilled, and here is why:

 

MMO's These days give everything away for nothing, nobody is special, theres no "sweet loot" you can really earn, the rakata gear (the only gear in the game that could take even a small bit of skill) is in many cases WORSE than its columi equivalent (the tier below) and where its better, its VERY margainal, theres no such thing as a L50 that isnt bristling with epics anymore, even playing semi casually you can experience all the game has to show in a couple of months (excluding rerolling alts, but really - no matter what bioware says, thats not a viable endgame model)

 

theres nothing to devote effort to, nothing to keep you logging in, yesterday i reached battlemaster (valor rank 60) and i did it well over 2 weeks later than many people, i've completed all the hard mode raid content (honestly it was very easy) and from what i've heard NMM isnt much of a step up

 

do you guys remember mmo's of a bygone age? where we were able to create our own content (daoc, swg) or where gear was something you could pride yourself on(WoW), when you NEEDED to grind all your blue set out before you could even look at a raid, you had to EARN the right to go and wipe for a week or two on each new boss, it felt epic - it had an amazing community, the whole atmosphere was on another level entirely, those lucky enough to get some coveted purple items would be gazed at wonderously by scores of people stood around the capital cities, everyone knew which guilds had killed what, which players had what item

 

and here we are now, where you can wander into a hard mode flashpoint and gain a tier 2 epic piece in 30 minutes, where gear is handed out so freely, that Tier 1 epics are actually completely skipped, where the stats are barely differentiable from one another tier to tier, and dont even get me started on the PVP stat

 

now i hear many of you saying "wow has all that stuff now, its fine, stop complaining", what you guys dont realise is that, yes, whilst wow did destroy much of what made their game great, splintering communities with cross server bg's, breaking server first interest by implementing cross server transfers, ruining immersion by being able to "queue" for an instance, and now even raids - wow did it AFTER it had already attracted and retained many millions of people, after it had implemented a whole host of great features complex and simple that swtor lacks (from simple things like the humble macro, guild banks, ui customisation, addons) to larger things such as Arenas, guild achievements + many others

 

who remembers running around a zone looking for crafting mats to make the right consumables for a given boss? i sure do, in Swtor we simply send our companions out, whilst we continue to run circles round the republic fleet (or imperial fleet) - thats another matter entirely, a capital "city" devoid of charm of personality, where you can simply run to the "mission deck" and enter any and all flashpoints/raid instances/warzones etc (our capital city feels like an instance, not part of a living breathing world, imps cant raid it, etc, its all wrong, wrong wrong wrong)

 

so now we have a game where everyone has the same gear more or less, theres nothing hard to earn (again, rakata is the only gear that could possibly take some small bit of skill or teamwork) and its WORSE or at the best incremental upgrades from easily obtainable columi/pvp gear

 

guys, WE CANT EVEN queue for warzones as a full group (basic functionality for any mmo!!), why is the game stopping me from having any kind of fun when i login? im FORCED to play with randoms, right now my day is: login, do 2 dailys, logoff - log back in if its a pve raid day and everything isnt cleared already, what is "fun" to do in the meantime? get zerged by imps on ilum? warzone with groups of complete randoms? opening RNG bags where people can get great rewards with little effort, or have the complete opposite happen?

 

I AM NOT ALLOWED TO CHOOSE WHICH WZ I WANT TO PLAY, im SICK of alderaan and voidstar, i get like 2 huttballs all day even if i queue like 20 times

 

i've already noticed a huge drop off in activity on my server, all the top guilds are struggling with activity/recruiting etc

 

i know alot of people will tell me "lol you rushed to 50, we're still enjoying alderaan!" and all that other stuff you love to say, i put this to you: what happens when you hit 50 and most of the other L50's already quit? when there is no tangible community at level cap to join? or are at the least less active, when guilds have already been destroyed by entropy, when players have left the game because theres basically little or no fun to be had (the one thing i get to enjoy in swtor is raiding atm, pvp is awful without full premades)

 

then theres all the other stuff (more bugs we all know about that i dont care to BEGIN listing) especially things like pressing an ability and it just doesnt work (what on earth?)

 

i WANT this game to succeed, we ALL do, i know so many people that are sick to the teeth of wow/other games/etc and really want a new home - im NOT asking for more and more content, what im asking for is functionality, it is FUN to logon and play in a full premade pvp group, it is FUN to play arena with some friends, its FUN to feel like my time invested is going to actually improve my character, rather than "maybe earn a sidegrade that everyone else already has with minimal effort anyway"

 

theres more stuff that i can think of which i wont go in to, because im sure someone has already said most of it before, i really wish i could be a fly on the wall @ developer meetings sometimes, i dont understand how these people think, players and community consistently have better ideas/vision/foresight than the people payed to make these games

 

edit: alot of people dont realise how much keeping the so called "hardcore" brings to a game and the community, additionally id like to point out that the time sinks are COMPLETELY wrong in this game, i would LOVE to have to opportunity to "sink" my time into full premade wz's, instead i have to sink my time into 5 loading screens when swapping planets

 

kind regards,

 

I am surprised to see 3 of these threads today, one of them my own all from a different perspective. As far as I understand it, you are another person complaining that games these days are too easy and do not cater for 'Hardcores' enough.

 

Give this a read http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=2350680#post2350680 and see if you identify with the 'Whenwe's I mention.

 

<edit> ugh, I had something typed up which then got deleted, so let me do this in bullet form.

 

1) Casuals getting something does not drive away the hardcores. WoW caters for both.

 

2) Hardcores are an extreme minority of gamers currently, much more so than in the past.

 

3) Most "Hardcores" of yesteryear are now working jobs and raising families, while still enjoying games. I.e the casuals you hate so much.

 

4) MMO - Massively Multiplayer Online. Not "Massively Social Online". Multiplayer involves completing goals/tasks with other players, not spamming channels for hours. If I want to be social, I will use facebook or chat with my guild.

 

5) Automated Finders are standard these days. Most serious players would rather be playing than faffing around with overhead.

 

6) Past MMO's were 'hard' in that they were simply numerically overtuned, bugged, grindy or laggy. Heroic Raiding in WoW now is harder than *anything* in the old days, taking the above out of the equation.

 

7) Cross Server features are essential unless you want to totally muck over people unlucky to roll on the wrong server or merge servers.

 

8) I am not sure exactly what you are complaining about. Is it that the game is too easy? Is it that you don't like Republic? Is there not enough endgame content? I am totally lost.

[Yowfatto]

I couldnt stand MMOs in the past. Some people have lives, and why should their sub money be worth less then those who dont and can spend hours in a online game? Thats the reality of it, no one in there right mind wants to come home from work and put on the MMO hat and goto work yet again Theres no fun in working two jobs while the other (MMOs) You pay them for the honor of working. Yeah right.

 

The real problem is the hardcore folks are realizing ever more no one cares about them, and no company is really going to risk alot of money in trying to recreate the days of Everquest where only basement dwellers where playing games, and probably wearing poofy Wizard hats while doing it. I've been playing since head start and my oldest char is only 42, and my alts are both 20-30.

 

That seems to be the ideal person for MMO designers to cater to. Why bother trying to keep up with the hardcore types who will blow through the game easily and demand new content every week when existing content will last a casual for over a year?

 

In the end this is Sociology at work here. Hardcore types make online games their life so they demand more challenge so they can extract their reward from overcoming hard work, where as people who have a rich full life off the MMOs get enough of that in their everyday life and thus dont need a video game to validate them.

 

Agree, the hardcore players eat up MMO's like kids eat Mcdonalds, then get mad when they've done all the content. If they want a MMO that puts out new content faster than they can finish it they should design a game like that, but all they want to do is play MMOs so that will never happen.

[EverlongAU]

Its just what happens when something goes mainstream, it gets watered down.

 

Look at hip hop, in the 90s it was a creative and inspring howl from the subculture, now its top40 "i'm in da club" meaningless *****.

[Maxxian]

Wow a general discussion thread I found enlightening!

 

I have said this for years and I see a lot of people agree with me, WoW was the best and worst thing that ever happened to MMO’s. All the reasons have been stated so I will not beat a dead horse.

 

I will say in my opinion the one MMO that got it right (or closest to IMO) was Eve Online. What I liked about that game was that whatever you wanted to do…you could do it. Want to be a pirate…you can do that. Want to create your own empire…you can do that. Want to have a career in crafting and manufacturing…you can do that.

 

My main problem with the game was the skill system (which is great on paper but not in practice over time) and the death penalty (was way too costly IMO).

 

Now if only SWTOR would get some RvR action like WAR had but programmed it correctly………

 

P.S. Before anyone asks yes I really enjoy SWTOR and I quit Eve because playing 8 hours a day while married is bad for pillow talk.

[Tohrazer]

Wow a general discussion thread I found enlightening!

 

I have said this for years and I see a lot of people agree with me, WoW was the best and worst thing that ever happened to MMO’s. All the reasons have been stated so I will not beat a dead horse.

 

I will say in my opinion the one MMO that got it right (or closest to IMO) was Eve Online. What I liked about that game was that whatever you wanted to do…you could do it. Want to be a pirate…you can do that. Want to create your own empire…you can do that. Want to have a career in crafting and manufacturing…you can do that.

 

My main problem with the game was the skill system (which is great on paper but not in practice over time) and the death penalty (was way too costly IMO).

 

Now if only SWTOR would get some RvR action like WAR had but programmed it correctly………

 

P.S. Before anyone asks yes I really enjoy SWTOR and I quit Eve because playing 8 hours a day while married is bad for pillow talk.

 

agreed on Eve, im heading back there if swtor sinks (next set of patchnotes will float or sink the boat, atleast for alot of people i've spoken with)

[crowncrow]

In another thread, some of us have been discussing our disappointment with the crafting system: The fact that endgame crafting seems completely useless and disconnected from endgame gear. Not surprisingly our discussion took a very similar turn:

 

Some people want improvements along the lines of sandbox games while others insist that those features simply do not fit in a casual theme park grind.

 

Obviously many of you are satisfied with the way TOR has turned out but that does not mean you should dismiss all good suggestions and pleas asking for a better kind of MMO as winning and trolling.

 

For starters I do not agree with a general tendency of the theme park advocates that overemphasizes game definitions as if the gaming world should be rigid and impervious to change.

TOR is clearly a theme park game nevertheless insisting that all such games must be streamlined to the casual grind template sounds a bit too much like an unbreakable commandment from the Holy Scripture off Know it all Gamers. A scripture that in actuality does not exist. (Unless you consider WoW the only true religion and raiding grind the only gamer's heaven that exists. )

 

Classifying TOR as "meant to be only a casual game" is a perfect example of a definition that has evolved. Strictly speaking TOR has very little in common with the true casual gaming of today. The communities of TOR and WoW combined as well as their revenues pale in comparison with sheer size and power of today's mobile and browser markets. Markets which are all about casual gaming. ( Zynga's games alone have over 200 million monthly active users, and that's only Facebook). In a world where you can play with your friends anywhere and at anytime, be in and out of a game within 10 to 15 min I would hardly call grinding raids for hours - a casual game style. Pleasantly mind-numbing hack&slash maybe, but casual does not really cover TOR in the truest sense of that meaning.

 

I have followed the development of TOR from the start and even though it was obvious that it will be a theme park game there was some hope for small sandbox elements. After all, BW has talked of a"new kind of MMO" using the world EPIC at every turn. Today many of us realize that our expectations were too high. We wonder aloud why they bothered to create all this content that at the end becomes simply irrelevant: crafting and single player space combat are two of the most obvious examples. Both of these features contribute little or nothing to player interaction - a fundamental component of every MMO.

 

To be completely honest I have a bias here, I am an absolute fun of EVE Online. Of course compere to EVE, TOR is definitely a more casual game. EVE is a 100% sandbox, however what is absolutely fascinating about creators of EVE is their dedication to doing things that have never been done before. Naturally, its a lot of trial and error, but the simple fact is that for the last 10 years they have been growing steadily. What they are trying to create is something much more then a streamlined experience, its an attempt at creating a sci-fi simulation that encompasses all different play styles and professions. Although their ultimate goal maybe still some distance away, IMO they are closer to a breakthrough success then many skeptics believe. Combining a first person shooter console game (Dust 514) into the EVE space ship PC world is an incredibly gutsy move. Many are skeptical but if it works it will prove that play styles can be mixed and what truly lies at the heart of a good MMO's is complex player interaction.

 

As a hard core Star Wars fun, who has read all the books, operates a Star Wars fun page, dresses up for children etc. I admit I was expecting a bit too much from TOR. Star Wars universe is the biggest story rich universe ever created and frankly speaking it deserves more then the mindless hamster wheel of a theme park like WoW.

 

The truth is that adding sandbox elements, like a good crafting system with its supporting economy, to a casual theme park game is not impossible. It may require a new approach yes, but its definitely not impossible. We tend to defend what we know as if it is the unbreakable rule, that is until some new innovative idea comes along and changes the way we think. So in answer to OP I would pose another question:

 

Why a big developer like EA did not really innovate when it comes to TOR?

 

Well, to my mind this is the way of the world: Small companies are always the true innovators. More often then not they innovate because they have to. They cannot compete with the big boys straight up so their only chance for a big success is trying to create something new and fresh. On the other hand big developers like EA follow the money trail, they target the most lucrative marked at the time and try to squeeze every last drop out of it.

 

So, will TOR be successful? It definitely has some strong addictive points but considering the rapid expansion of the casual gaming marked and the high expectations of many players waiting for something new TOR falls a bit too much in the very familiar and unimaginative ground of reinventing the (hamster) wheel. To put it in another way it falls short of the title and brand: Star Wars Saga EPIC MMO, which by definition implies much more then casual grind as the endgame goal. Granted, a lot ultimately depends on your own definition of an EPIC experience.

 

To end my long post I will leave you with a bit nostalgic quote, a quote I found while researching crafting in games:

 

"I hesitate to bring this one up, as I know it’s still a wound (maybe a scar?) that people feel the pains of today. But bar none, SWG had the most interesting and important crafting system in recent MMOs. It fostered a sense of community like few games do in that everyone was dependent on one another for supplies, armor, transportation, and so on and so forth. Blasters, starships, housing, food, furniture, droids… SWG was once the epitome of living in a virtual George Lucas film (when people still liked his films). And while it’s a shame that those days are gone, one can only hope that someday another game will get enough exposure for a similarly engaging crafting community."

Link: http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/6/feature/4947/Top-Crafting-Systems.html

 

To those that would accuse us of whining about the past: For some of us who have been playing games for over 20 years, all the way back to hack&slash MUDs, we are definitely talking about a long overdue future... :-)

[Arkerus]

In another thread, some of us have been discussing our disappointment with the crafting system: The fact that endgame crafting seems completely useless and disconnected from endgame gear. Not surprisingly our discussion took a very similar turn:

 

Some people want improvements along the lines of sandbox games while others insist that those features simply do not fit in a casual theme park grind.

 

Obviously many of you are satisfied with the way TOR has turned out but that does not mean you should dismiss all good suggestions and pleas asking for a better kind of MMO as winning and trolling.

 

For starters I do not agree with a general tendency of the theme park advocates that overemphasizes game definitions as if the gaming world should be rigid and impervious to change.

TOR is clearly a theme park game nevertheless insisting that all such games must be streamlined to the casual grind template sounds a bit too much like an unbreakable commandment from the Holy Scripture off Know it all Gamers. A scripture that in actuality does not exist. (Unless you consider WoW the only true religion and raiding grind the only gamer's heaven that exists. )

 

Classifying TOR as "meant to be only a casual game" is a perfect example of a definition that has evolved. Strictly speaking TOR has very little in common with the true casual gaming of today. The communities of TOR and WoW combined as well as their revenues pale in comparison with sheer size and power of today's mobile and browser markets. Markets which are all about casual gaming. ( Zynga's games alone have over 200 million monthly active users, and that's only Facebook). In a world where you can play with your friends anywhere and at anytime, be in and out of a game within 10 to 15 min I would hardly call grinding raids for hours - a casual game style. Pleasantly mind-numbing hack&slash maybe, but casual does not really cover TOR in the truest sense of that meaning.

 

I have followed the development of TOR from the start and even though it was obvious that it will be a theme park game there was some hope for small sandbox elements. After all, BW has talked of a"new kind of MMO" using the world EPIC at every turn. Today many of us realize that our expectations were too high. We wonder aloud why they bothered to create all this content that at the end becomes simply irrelevant: crafting and single player space combat are two of the most obvious examples. Both of these features contribute little or nothing to player interaction - a fundamental component of every MMO.

 

To be completely honest I have a bias here, I am an absolute fun of EVE Online. Of course compere to EVE, TOR is definitely a more casual game. EVE is a 100% sandbox, however what is absolutely fascinating about creators of EVE is their dedication to doing things that have never been done before. Naturally, its a lot of trial and error, but the simple fact is that for the last 10 years they have been growing steadily. What they are trying to create is something much more then a streamlined experience, its an attempt at creating a sci-fi simulation that encompasses all different play styles and professions. Although their ultimate goal maybe still some distance away, IMO they are closer to a breakthrough success then many skeptics believe. Combining a first person shooter console game (Dust 514) into the EVE space ship PC world is an incredibly gutsy move. Many are skeptical but if it works it will prove that play styles can be mixed and what truly lies at the heart of a good MMO's is complex player interaction.

 

As a hard core Star Wars fun, who has read all the books, operates a Star Wars fun page, dresses up for children etc. I admit I was expecting a bit too much from TOR. Star Wars universe is the biggest story rich universe ever created and frankly speaking it deserves more then the mindless hamster wheel of a theme park like WoW.

 

The truth is that adding sandbox elements, like a good crafting system with its supporting economy, to a casual theme park game is not impossible. It may require a new approach yes, but its definitely not impossible. We tend to defend what we know as if it is the unbreakable rule, that is until some new innovative idea comes along and changes the way we think. So in answer to OP I would pose another question:

 

Why a big developer like EA did not really innovate when it comes to TOR?

 

Well, to my mind this is the way of the world: Small companies are always the true innovators. More often then not they innovate because they have to. They cannot compete with the big boys straight up so their only chance for a big success is trying to create something new and fresh. On the other hand big developers like EA follow the money trail, they target the most lucrative marked at the time and try to squeeze every last drop out of it.

 

So, will TOR be successful? It definitely has some strong addictive points but considering the rapid expansion of the casual gaming marked and the high expectations of many players waiting for something new TOR falls a bit too much in the very familiar and unimaginative ground of reinventing the (hamster) wheel. To put it in another way it falls short of the title and brand: Star Wars Saga EPIC MMO, which by definition implies much more then casual grind as the endgame goal. Granted, a lot ultimately depends on your own definition of an EPIC experience.

 

To end my long post I will leave you with a bit nostalgic quote, a quote I found while researching crafting in games:

 

"I hesitate to bring this one up, as I know it’s still a wound (maybe a scar?) that people feel the pains of today. But bar none, SWG had the most interesting and important crafting system in recent MMOs. It fostered a sense of community like few games do in that everyone was dependent on one another for supplies, armor, transportation, and so on and so forth. Blasters, starships, housing, food, furniture, droids… SWG was once the epitome of living in a virtual George Lucas film (when people still liked his films). And while it’s a shame that those days are gone, one can only hope that someday another game will get enough exposure for a similarly engaging crafting community."

Link: http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/6/feature/4947/Top-Crafting-Systems.html

 

To those that would accuse us of whining about the past: For some of us who have been playing games for over 20 years, all the way back to hack&slash MUDs, we are definitely talking about a long overdue future... :-)

 

 

You know...I have been gaming for over 20 years as well.

 

I saw zero value and no fun in SWG. There are a lot of rose colored glasses on this forum.

 

I think a lot of you need to accept that SWTOR is not SWG and it never will be. It is not the product you want it to be.

 

I'm sorry thats just how it is. You can either accept TOR for what it was designed to be or you can continue to complain on the forums about how you wanted something a little more "sandbox" or "hardcore".

 

Hey. Speak your mind but don't expect bioware to start creating a bunch of sandbox content that the lot of us won't ever use or play.

Edited January 31, 2012 by Arkerus

[Knyghtprowler]

Nice post - I agree with it.

 

/sign

[LenaMarie]

You know...I have been gaming for over 20 years as well.

 

I saw zero value and no fun in SWG. There are a lot of rose colored glasses on this forum.

 

I think a lot of you need to accept that SWTOR is not SWG and it never will be. It is not the product you want it to be.

 

I'm sorry thats just how it is. You can either accept TOR for what it was designed to be or you can continue to complain on the forums about how you wanted something a little more "sandbox" or "hardcore".

 

Hey. Speak your mind but don't expect bioware to start creating a bunch of sandbox content that the lot of us won't ever use or play.

 

Somehow I doubt we will ever see another game like SWG. I mean I hated the ground portion as did most of my friends but we did enjoy space alot. The only ground portions that were fun (to us) was Kashyyk and Mustafar, in other words the adventure planets. Personally I did not like paying to create my own content, but admittedly I did enjoy the skill system alot, making your own 'classes' was fun but little else was as there was no "guard rails'

 

Alot of people just really like some structure to their fun, which is why casuals and such enjoy games like Wow. If some people want to blame mainstreaming for making "mmos go wrong" I guess i cant disagree but as obi wan points out, its all about perspective. If it werent for going Mainstream you'd never have big budget games not unlike hollywood productions. I daresay you probably wouldn't have steam or many other things gamers take for granted.

[Aepervius]

to the OP : I am an old player. I played even other multi-player game before MMO (MUD). I can tell you why those day are bygone : those characteristic you described caters to the minority.

 

heck even in my MUD day, rare were those reaching first or third reincarnation on the server I played. I was a third reincarnation "demon" and from the thousands of players we had, barely 10 made it so far.

 

Fact is, what is nicknamed e-peen now (and is spot on for what it represents) with all those hard raid and whatnot, are seen as a chore by the majority. Since game tend to cater to the majority rather than the e-peen minority, or player-killer minority, because that is where the money is, I thin you won't see those day come back except in niche, indy, or F2P korean grindy MMO.

 

And frankly, as an older player, I have long stopped to see those as "rewarding".

[crowncrow]

You know...I have been gaming for over 20 years as well.

 

I saw zero value and no fun in SWG. There are a lot of rose colored glasses on this forum.

 

I think a lot of you need to accept that SWTOR is not SWG and it never will be. It is not the product you want it to be.

 

I'm sorry thats just how it is. You can either accept TOR for what it was designed to be or you can continue to complain on the forums about how you wanted something a little more "sandbox" or "hardcore".

 

Hey. Speak your mind but don't expect bioware to start creating a bunch of sandbox content that the lot of us won't ever use or play.

 

Hey I never said I want another game like SWG. SWG is nostalgia and I stated it rather clearly. On the other hand one cannot deny that having a solid crafter class in any MMO, however minor group they are increases player interaction which is not a bad thing for anybody... Or is it?

 

I also never said I do not enjoy TOR as it is, at least for now. My post is me speaking my mind precisely because in a long run games are shaped by the community. It is also rather obvious that the moment TOR went for launch developers, despite their best intentions which they very well may have, are forced to prioritize according to what profits them most. Needs of the minority that voiced their doubts or criticism are clearly not on their agenda and I am not whining about that.

 

If you read my text carefully you will see that what lies at the heart of it is an attempt to answer a simple question: why BW did not decide to truly innovate...

 

Instead of picking at what you think I said and dismissing it out of hand try to have a go at something I actually said. I definitely welcome some constructive criticism especially since I am no expert.

Edited January 31, 2012 by crowncrow

[Dezzi]

Where did it go wrong?

 

When the Western MMO market became the Eastern market.

 

F2P at release is right around the corner...

Edited January 31, 2012 by Dezzi

[Atech]

to the OP. Stop playing so much. I know plenty of people who got the game when it first came out, got to 50 and now working on lvl 60 valor. The funny thing is they are playing a lot too. But, if your already bored you need to chill out. Roll an alt, or better yet get out of the house every once in a while. There is only so much people can do. One thing I hated about Wow was the release of a new high level instance in a patch. Which required you to have the top gear in the game. I was thinking well I'll never see that.

[AlarienEvenstar]

or where gear was something you could pride yourself on(WoW)

 

This is where you went wrong. There was very little anything approaching epic gear/loot in WoW, with the exception of the few legendary items, which were a pita to get, so there was some pride to them.

 

Loot has not existed in an MMO as an important item since Everquest, due to the fact that items are stupidly common in all games now. There's a big difference between getting a new item upgrade every 4 levels as opposed to getting your first piece of "omg, bronze plate, I'm uber!!!" at level 30....

 

Also, there are no longer, with a few exceptions, rare spawns and placeholders to camp for extremely valuable or rare items. Yes, they create community issues... but they also create COMMUNITY. Community has both positive and horribly negative sides, which is what makes games with one a lot more interesting. Right now, mmo players on a server are a bunch of random faces and names if they aren't in your guild or you aren't, essentially, pvping in Warzones with them on a daily basis.

[Lexster]

Biggest change is the time vs reward element of the games. First games required massive time investments and people coordination to do even the simplest of tasks. Now things are obtained fast. Levels, gear, raids, EVERYTHING. No longer is the journey to get through the game, as the game is now endgame raid or pvp. While I dont miss sitting down staring at a spellbook for 10-15 minutes to recover from OOM, I do miss the crushing difficulty and penalties associated with gaming of old.

[ChokeForce]

you know how in wow theres like areas to farm things? like elemental fire or something, people would compete over spawns and gank eachother etc, it felt alive - something about swtor is creepy, the worlds feel ... i cant even explain it, lifeless, plastic, like they still have the wrapping on

 

its not a living breathing world, its weird

 

 

Seperate leveling zones. It made Warhammer flop and they decide it should be in this game too. *** were they thinking ?

[Gungan]

Seperate leveling zones. It made Warhammer flop and they decide it should be in this game too. *** were they thinking ?

 

Seriously. I spendas much time exploring Imperial levelling areas as I do actually questing in Republic ones. I spent around an hour revealing "the other half" of Corellia that I didn't visit just by playing the game.

 

At least WAR had a neutral zone that was entirely dedicated to PVP.

[Oulush]

I have to disagree with the OP. I remember playing vanilla WOW the first time it was launched. After a year of gaming, With family, work etc. I was unable to progress any further than I could.

 

When BG's were implemented I was constantly getting 2-3 shotted because of the non existent PVP gear. Raiding felt like a job, which I didn't have the qualifications to have that job (which is funny, as I have never seen Ragnaros in raid as the content was not accessible to me).

 

I hated it, I quit, until Burning Crusade, which separated PVP gear. The game become finally fun for me after 2 years, where I could obtain things on my own pace, and compete in PVP.

 

To a certain degree, I do agree that games overall have much lower skill requirements. They are still fun, but not as challenging. The current problem with MMO's is not that there isn't challenging environment, but rather the challenge rewards the player with most time over most skill.

 

Any MMO that could potentially differentiate this will be the next winner, the next gen MMO. When PVP is focused on numbers and RNG, with little luck, you could compensate your lack of skill with better numbers. This may bring some satisfaction to the players, but not every bad player can have good luck to have the items they need to fulfill their lack of skill. If you are bad at this type of games, and if you lack the time to devote, you can only play it so long before giving up.

 

A game like counter-strike, where every player can have access to everything, the difference is made by skill. This is why the game is still successful, even with minor changes for the past 10 years. You can lose it, but its not because you don't have the gear, or the items, but because you've made a mistake or was not being careful.

 

The future of MMO's will not have RNG's, gear that gives you stats, or basically, a carrot on a stick. The future MMO's will create a playing field where skill will be above anything else.

 

This will appeal to both hardcore and casual gamers, as they can hop in whenever they can or want to, play their game without being frustrated, feeling tired or feeling the need to give up.

 

Competition when not on equal grounds, will always lead to resentment, even if it's just a game.

[supertouch]

i love that people are scoffing at the everquest demographic when games like eq and uo popularized the genre in the west.

 

there are certain points people can't grasp unless they've experienced a game like everquest. first of all, grouping with other players was encouraged because soloing wasn't very efficient (even for casters) and you'd get eaten alive in dungeons if you explored them by yourself. grouping helped foster a sense of community and politics. secondly, grinding while interacting with others is much more enjoyable than doing mundane solo quests.

 

wow didn't introduce the dungeon instance concept, but it became the standard due to wow's popularity. there's nothing exciting about disconnecting yourself from the rest of the game world to kill copies of mobs that everyone else is killing.

 

at any rate, you can't really assess the appeal of certain game models when 90% of americans had never played an mmo before wow. i'd bet a game that followed the eq formula would be a welcome change to wow players.