Why do so many players think sentinel is underpowered?

[RelentlessWiz]

I'm a combat sent, and they play just fine. Yeah, maybe I'm not always on the top of the warzone scoreboard for damage output, but I still do great in them. I do about 5k+ first rotation, crit for 2.8k+ with blade storm, have a 45 second cool down on a temporary 4 sec. vanish, 20% damage reduction for 30 seconds, 30 sec cool down... honestly, I agree with the initial topic poster. He's not necessary trolling. He's trying to find a reason why people think they are underpowered, when in all honesty, they aren't all that bad. I do great 1vs1, nearly win 85% of these type of fights. Utilize all abilities correctly is the major skill needed for this class. Most people that say they're underpowered don't have a legitimate argument/statistics to backup their claims... they need to post their rotation, talents, and their gear to even decide to make a compelling argument. Edited January 30, 2012 by OzzieVilomar

[TheRealDestian]

I've never once considered a sentinel/marauder a threat, and this across 5 different classes.

 

They drop like flies, have no CC or snares to speak of, get kited horribly and don't do enough damage to justify all of the aforementioned shortcomings.

 

I don't play one, but from everything I've seen, the class is crap. People can say "They're the best in ____, blah, blah, etc." but that runs completely counter to my experience in game.

[RelentlessWiz]

I've never once considered a sentinel/marauder a threat, and this across 5 different classes.

 

They drop like flies, have no CC or snares to speak of, get kited horribly and don't do enough damage to justify all of the aforementioned shortcomings.

 

I don't play one, but from everything I've seen, the class is crap. People can say "They're the best in ____, blah, blah, etc." but that runs completely counter to my experience in game.

 

Force stasis, debilitation... Kited? I don't get kited, ha. Leg slash works for me. Vanish, if they remotely consider dropping me like a fly.

[HiroAyami]

I don't play one, but from everything I've seen, the class is crap. People can say "They're the best in ____, blah, blah, etc." but that runs completely counter to my experience in game.

 

 

I agree with this for the most part. Sentinel is a class brought down by players unable to control them properly, or who just can't figure out how to stat them right. From wasting Force Leap to poor Focus management, there is a plethora of little things that make the class "decent" as a whole.

 

I'm not the best Sentinel player, even on my server a pair of Sentinels are doing 300k+ fairly consistently, but I've reached a point where the distinction between subpar and proficient is clear.

 

The gap between the two is far too large, even if Sentinel is fine, there has got to be something worth tweaking to make the class more accessible or balanced for the users.

 

Users on the forums waving around their epeens and touting how good the class are seem few and far between in reality. Where are you in game? I sure hope you weren't that Sentinel I watched get stomped on Voidstar for the fifth time. If you're one of the select few who can handle a Sentinel through this UI, the bugs, and juggle everything perfectly, then congradulations. It doesn't change the fact that the gap between skill levels should be addressed. This doesn't mean the class needs to stop rewarding players who can handle it and nail timing and priority, but it shouldn't punish players for speccing incorrectly or mistiming something once.

[wrmrstacrdwower]

I agree with this for the most part. Sentinel is a class brought down by players unable to control them properly, or who just can't figure out how to stat them right. From wasting Force Leap to poor Focus management, there is a plethora of little things that make the class "decent" as a whole.

 

I'm not the best Sentinel player, even on my server a pair of Sentinels are doing 300k+ fairly consistently, but I've reached a point where the distinction between subpar and proficient is clear.

 

The gap between the two is far too large, even if Sentinel is fine, there has got to be something worth tweaking to make the class more accessible or balanced for the users.

 

Users on the forums waving around their epeens and touting how good the class are seem few and far between in reality. Where are you in game? I sure hope you weren't that Sentinel I watched get stomped on Voidstar for the fifth time. If you're one of the select few who can handle a Sentinel through this UI, the bugs, and juggle everything perfectly, then congradulations. It doesn't change the fact that the gap between skill levels should be addressed. This doesn't mean the class needs to stop rewarding players who can handle it and nail timing and priority, but it shouldn't punish players for speccing incorrectly or mistiming something once.

People actually get to time things? 90% of the time I spend in combat in WZ's I spend CC under an immobalizing effect from a knockback or stunned.

 

Funny thing is though I don't care anymore. The game design from every aspect of this game is poor and borderline amature. System lags that cause delays, being locked in animations ( and I don't mean master strike I mean strike the two rage generating pos ability it is), inability for key press's to be read (spamming force kick on an opponent channeling an ability and seeing it go off late or stutter through-which by the by is awesome fun to do with Master Strike). It's just so bad that it's not worth the effort or time it takes to care.

[Shyrshadi]

I'm watchman spec and i LOVE the spec and i love playing sentinel. i like playing classes that require skill to do well. but that's just me.

[Sylverdyne]

While I love my Sent, and I like to think that I play him well, I must admit that this is just a game, and I am unwilling to invest the deep time investment I would need to achieve the total mastery of my keybinds and interface in order to play to what it appears is "good enough".

 

Unfortunately, there is this massive gap between skilled and casual play, and the standard performance of a casual player as opposed to the standard of play of a skilled player is MASSIVE for a Sent. FAR more so then any other class I have played. Which is a shame, because as I said, Sent is my favorite class right now. If only I didn't suck at it.

[Ovarf]

^ +1

 

I play a 50 sent and have been playing sent since release I am 58 valor with full champ gear and can still not come close to some of the numbers people here are pulling.

 

Now I know some of the difference is because I'm not a stim / adrenal junkie since I am not a bio crafter (even with the nerf its still a huge advantage to always have them and not have to pay for them ever again but that is another topic)

 

but how much of their numbers do people think is due to this? is popping an adrenal at the right moment every time all match really goign to 2x your damage?

 

I see the best sent players on our server putting up 350k and up in combat, watch, and focus specs not every game but almost every game

 

Then there is the 2nd tier ranks the good players that go from 75k to 200k they sometimes can post up a better damage score but not often

 

and lastly is the 3rd tier players that struggle to post even the 75k now a good argument can be made that they are in bad gear and still don't know how to play the class in PvP so I will accept that argument and talk about the 2nd tier.

 

I think it can be argued that the tier 2 players have L2P the class but they are still pumping out about half or less the DPS that the top players are. Is it really just having a savants intuition about when abilities will pop and a "pro" style key-binding with a fancy mouse? I have read a lot of the topics in here and I have seen nothing to indicate that there is some supper secret combo that no one is talking about.

 

So my question is Should a DPS class have such a wide range? Currently the very top players are worth at least 2 or 3 times the DPS of an good player over 10 to 15 minutes. I get that top players by being top players are goign to be better then a good player but should they really be that much better is it healthy for the class in the long run to have that big of a gulf between a good player and a top player? Especially when the gap is not even close to that large in any of the other classes.

[EasymodeX]

Because, skill affects a Sent/Marauder differently than most other classes.

 

Brief summary why:

 

To play a class effectively, you must do two things. First, you must be able to do your primary "thing". For a DPS, you must DPS. For a healer, you must heal. If you cannot 1-2-3-4, you cannot do your primary goal.

 

Second, you must do all the ancillary things to support your execution of your primary goal. As a Sent/Marauder, you must survive in order to do your DPS. You must maintain contact time, apply interrupts appropriately, etc.

 

Most classes in this game can execute their primary objective (DPS) automatically. Range classes can 1-2-3-4 at range and do damage. Zero skill involved. It takes literally zero skill for a range class to make its first move. The first move happens automatically. Stealth classes are similar: it takes zero skill or effort to make their initial move.

 

Range and stealth classes employ skill in their secondary effects -- to survive, to kite, to counter enemy CCs, to time CCs, etc. They add skill to shuffle their DPS up to help time burst, etc.

 

Their primary role happens automatically, and their secondary capabilities (kiting, cc, healing, survival, burst) extend and enhance their ability to do their primary function.

 

Sent/Marauders work differently.

 

Despite the availability of force charge, we do not get the initiative of 1-2-3-4 DPS execution. There's too much CC spam and too much client-server desync to allow Sent/Maras to simply 1-2-3-4 to unload DPS. The Sent/mara actually require their secondary roles -- anti-kiting, survival, positioning -- before they can begin doing their primary role.

 

It actually requires the application of skill for a Sent/Mara to do begin to 1-2-3-4. The Sent/Mara 1-2-3-4 begins AFTER the skillcheck. For all other DPS classes, the 1-2-3-4 happens BEFORE the skillcheck. As I said above, for them skill comes into play when they want to survive or kite or heal or survive after executing their 1-2-3-4.

 

That is why so many Sent/Maras perform so ridiculously poorly. They do not meet the skill threshold to even be able to start doing *anything*. Nevermind being very good or not.

 

Many BH/Sorcs/Ops etc are just as terrible. However, they perform much better because they can actually do something in the first place, even if it's mostly worthless.

[EasymodeX]

Round 2:

 

You are correct in your observation that most people on the forum and such are "basically doing the same thing to do damage". Yes, we all press Charge Exhaust Sweep, or OCS Caut Merc Slash. These things are the simple 1-2-3-4.

 

These things don't matter. Bad players think they matter, because bad players do not perceive the true reason why they are failing.

 

They keep thinking to themselves that "IT MUST BE SOMETHING WITH MY GEAR, OR MY SPEC, OR MY DAMAGE, OR MY ATTACK BUTTONS" that they are not doing the damage and getting kills. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning-Kruger_effect

 

Welcome to not being skilled enough (or honest enough with your own skill level and capabilities) to even know where your deficiencies lie.

[Ovarf]

ok lets assume everything you said is 100% dead on and everyone that is not outputting the 400k + numbers in WZ and the like just sucks at playing and can not make their skill check.

 

ok so lets say that you and the rest of the folks that can pull this off constitute 30% of the sent players (i think that is way high but for arguments sake i will go with that).

 

Even with all that true I would say the class is still 70% broken. If only 30% of the players of a DPS class can manage the skill level needed to do the DPS of any other DPS class in the game then ya that might be a long term issue with the class.

[Crabbok]

Because, skill affects a Sent/Marauder differently than most other classes.

 

Brief summary why:

 

To play a class effectively, you must do two things. First, you must be able to do your primary "thing". For a DPS, you must DPS. For a healer, you must heal. If you cannot 1-2-3-4, you cannot do your primary goal.

 

Second, you must do all the ancillary things to support your execution of your primary goal. As a Sent/Marauder, you must survive in order to do your DPS. You must maintain contact time, apply interrupts appropriately, etc.

 

Most classes in this game can execute their primary objective (DPS) automatically. Range classes can 1-2-3-4 at range and do damage. Zero skill involved. It takes literally zero skill for a range class to make its first move. The first move happens automatically. Stealth classes are similar: it takes zero skill or effort to make their initial move.

 

Range and stealth classes employ skill in their secondary effects -- to survive, to kite, to counter enemy CCs, to time CCs, etc. They add skill to shuffle their DPS up to help time burst, etc.

 

Their primary role happens automatically, and their secondary capabilities (kiting, cc, healing, survival, burst) extend and enhance their ability to do their primary function.

 

Sent/Marauders work differently.

 

Despite the availability of force charge, we do not get the initiative of 1-2-3-4 DPS execution. There's too much CC spam and too much client-server desync to allow Sent/Maras to simply 1-2-3-4 to unload DPS. The Sent/mara actually require their secondary roles -- anti-kiting, survival, positioning -- before they can begin doing their primary role.

 

It actually requires the application of skill for a Sent/Mara to do begin to 1-2-3-4. The Sent/Mara 1-2-3-4 begins AFTER the skillcheck. For all other DPS classes, the 1-2-3-4 happens BEFORE the skillcheck. As I said above, for them skill comes into play when they want to survive or kite or heal or survive after executing their 1-2-3-4.

 

That is why so many Sent/Maras perform so ridiculously poorly. They do not meet the skill threshold to even be able to start doing *anything*. Nevermind being very good or not.

 

Many BH/Sorcs/Ops etc are just as terrible. However, they perform much better because they can actually do something in the first place, even if it's mostly worthless.

 

Nice post man. I think your skill in writing, is close to the skill necessary to play a competent sentinel.

[mavsynchroid]

Didn't see this thread and made my own, sorry for that. I'll just post here what I posted there.

 

 

This is the first time I've actually gotten this far in an MMO, so I'm no where close to being an expert on these things, but I don't see why people think the sentinel is so bad?

 

I've always been about two or three levels below where i'm supposed to be taking on mobs and elites and I haven't really had much of an issue. I'm lvl 48 now and I'm taking on lvl 50 elites. My gear is almost all orange except for "bracers?" and belt.

 

Maybe it's because I always use Doc? I guess without him I'd be way too squishy.

 

I guess I just don't see what's wrong with them. Are they awful in PVP? I'm honestly curious, because I'm worried I shouldn't have rolled this class.

 

 

sight... EDIT again: After completely reading this thread I've realized I'm well out of my league asking dumb questions like this. I apologize.

Edited January 31, 2012 by mavsynchroid

[mavsynchroid]

Didn't see this thread and made my own, sorry for that. I'll just post here what I posted there.

 

 

This is the first time I've actually gotten this far in an MMO, so I'm no where close to being an expert on these things, but I don't see why people think the sentinel is so bad?

 

I've always been about two or three levels below where i'm supposed to be taking on mobs and elites and I haven't really had much of an issue. I'm lvl 48 now and I'm taking on lvl 50 elites. My gear is almost all orange except for "bracers?" and belt.

 

Maybe it's because I always use Doc? I guess without him I'd be way too squishy.

 

I guess I just don't see what's wrong with them. Are they awful in PVP? I'm honestly curious, because I'm worried I shouldn't have rolled this class.

[EasymodeX]

ok lets assume everything you said is 100% dead on and everyone that is not outputting the 400k + numbers in WZ and the like just sucks at playing and can not make their skill check. [...] Even with all that true I would say the class is still 70% broken. If only 30% of the players of a DPS class can manage the skill level needed to do the DPS of any other DPS class in the game then ya that might be a long term issue with the class.

 

I didn't really agree or disagree with what you state here.

 

It's not about a bunch of bads "not meeting a skill check" (although it is, LOL). The issue is the core design of the class where the class has serious dysfunctions when you fail the check. Below the bar? Don't play Mara/Sent.

 

Most classes still "kinda work" when you're poor. The Sent does not.

 

This is, due to general tactical constraints, something that will always dog melee DPS classes to one extent or another. I'll repeat that: all direct melee DPS classes in combat games are at 'first-tier' tactical disadvantages. The technical issues in SWOTR (UI, lag), and the resource system (rage/focus) exacerbate this even more.

 

This is working as intended. MDPS like the Sent/Marauder have no automagic advantages like (a) range, or (b) stealth.

 

At least once the technical issues are cleared up, it will be slightly easier for borderline players to actually execute the class as it was meant to be played. Bads will still fail hardcore. It's unfortunate, but BioWare can't really do much about it and still preserve the concept of the class. The best they can do is shave off constraints in very small amounts -- again, after they fix overarching game issues like the UI/lag -- like reducing the cooldown on charge by 1.5 or 3 seconds, making OCS require a cleanse per stack, etc.

Edited January 31, 2012 by EasymodeX

[Ovarf]

first off I believe Biowear has stated that Knights and in particular Sents are the first class they are looking to data mine because they are not working as intended. I would also like to point out that a large number of the folks that you are writing off as "bad players" are not new to MMORPGs or for that matter melee DPS.

 

The issue here, for I would say about half the non elites, is not how to play melee DPS it is the class is ridiculously unforgiving the difference between someone that plays good and someone that plays it excellent is 2 to 3 times DPS I can see 1.5x even 2x on the upper tier but a baseline of 2x better then anyone not at the top % of the class is just silly.

[Mister-Jones]

I play a Sentinel, and I have always been a hard core PVPer in MMORPGs.

 

That being said --

 

1v1 I feel fairly balanced. What I lack in damage I make up for in my ability to always be hitting you. I am combat spec'd, and i have decent slow/snare/interrupt, and 1 ability to shed CC. I have some damage reduction abilities which are required for me to function, though. Without these, i'm toast to a good dps. Of course, 1v1 is also mitigated by a companion. As a sentinel with limited utility, having a healer at my back makes up for my low, low survivability.

 

In group PVP, I do fantastic until people realize i'm not retarded. I usually go into a WZ, destroy a few people, and then it's a CC fest. I can pick 1 to shed, and then i'm usually just locked up for the entire fight. I spend more time being CC'd than i do anything else. I don't feel this is my fault, though. I try to identify healers, and people playing away from their group, and go for them. But if there's any communication, or people actually paying attention not button mashing, i'm locked up until i die, and i can do literally nothing about it. Literally nothing.

 

In solo PVE, I am forced to use Doc. Without him, I cannot function. I've run as both Watchman, Watchman hybrid focus, and Combat. Watchman does offer more survivability, but the amount of keyclicks for roughly the same result as combat made me switch specs for a more relaxing gameplay, (and not a huge drop off in any dps, if at all). This disappoints me though, from a story standpoint i want to group with Kira as my character is pursuing that romance.

 

In group PVE, i've found that my dps is good. not great. Other non-saber wielding classes will out damage me. I have accepted this fact. One class has to be on top, and it isn't mine. I try to make up for this by properly positioning myself to interrupt as many spells as possible, and keeping errant mobs off of the squishies as i have survival cooldowns i can pop in case of trouble. I try to make up for my lack of DPS with improved utility.

 

Now, here's how i've optimized my sentinel.

1. Accuracy. if you're under 100% accuracy, you need more. 1% increase in accuracy is a true 1% increase in dps. This is the most bang for your buck and it keeps your damage and ability use consistent.

2. Crit. Crit is strictly better than Power IMO, and until i see a place where the formulae for how power affects abilities, i won't have hard proof. but, the amount of power required to increase my damage by 1 and the amount of crit required to increase my expected damage by 1 are not comparable, as base damage is fairly high relative to how power affects our abilities.

 

I have ignored power, surge, and alacrity. I may increase surge as it becomes more available on items that have accuracy and crit, but surge is meaningless without these other 2 stats.

 

From a crafting and gear standpoint, i am maxed in artifice. I always have blue armor attachments and sabers for my level. I place a great deal of pride in my gear and am always poor due to regearing. I am 42 and i still don't have the next level of speeder piloting because gear comes before convenience. I need to shine in my groups and solo pvp encounters.

 

My focus rotation is simple math. I want to deal the most amount of damage per global cooldown, while still sustaining an active rotation. I deviate from this when the fights take a twist or turn, but typically my rotation is good enough to win the fights i find myself in.

 

When all is said and done, i would like a buff to this class. I would be satisfied if there was a "cc counter" ability where we could break cc and apply it to the caster. This would require people to think before blindly ccing us, and would also pose a serious risk in group pvp to just throwing a cc on a sent.

 

From a pve standpoint, i think you could improve our spec by buffing the ataru strike slightly, and making it a passive proc like in shadowbane, not requiring an animation and waiting for the ability triggering it to resolve. For the watchman tree, overload saber should have more charges with a longer cooldown, and merciless strike should cost 1 less focus.

 

My thoughts so far at 42.

 

Cheers.

[Tangenobi]

I didn't really agree or disagree with what you state here.

 

It's not about a bunch of bads "not meeting a skill check" (although it is, LOL). The issue is the core design of the class where the class has serious dysfunctions when you fail the check. Below the bar? Don't play Mara/Sent.

 

Most classes still "kinda work" when you're poor. The Sent does not.

 

This is, due to general tactical constraints, something that will always dog melee DPS classes to one extent or another. I'll repeat that: all direct melee DPS classes in combat games are at 'first-tier' tactical disadvantages. The technical issues in SWOTR (UI, lag), and the resource system (rage/focus) exacerbate this even more.

 

This is working as intended. MDPS like the Sent/Marauder have no automagic advantages like (a) range, or (b) stealth.

 

At least once the technical issues are cleared up, it will be slightly easier for borderline players to actually execute the class as it was meant to be played. Bads will still fail hardcore. It's unfortunate, but BioWare can't really do much about it and still preserve the concept of the class. The best they can do is shave off constraints in very small amounts -- again, after they fix overarching game issues like the UI/lag -- like reducing the cooldown on charge by 1.5 or 3 seconds, making OCS require a cleanse per stack, etc.

 

/agreed

[-Arcane-]

So we have the bads:

 

reroll a guardian becuase they do more dmg in it and take less.... then he continues on to tell me im wrong

 

Ahaha your still wrong.

 

The day a guardian out dps me I will eat my hat.

 

 

Why you trolling, Arcane? Mad cause your sad?

 

Trolling? I think you should go back to watching your focus bar and "missing all the action" rofl.

[-Arcane-]

And the good...

 

 

Because, skill affects a Sent/Marauder differently than most other classes.

 

Brief summary why:

 

To play a class effectively, you must do two things. First, you must be able to do your primary "thing". For a DPS, you must DPS. For a healer, you must heal. If you cannot 1-2-3-4, you cannot do your primary goal.

 

Second, you must do all the ancillary things to support your execution of your primary goal. As a Sent/Marauder, you must survive in order to do your DPS. You must maintain contact time, apply interrupts appropriately, etc.

 

Most classes in this game can execute their primary objective (DPS) automatically. Range classes can 1-2-3-4 at range and do damage. Zero skill involved. It takes literally zero skill for a range class to make its first move. The first move happens automatically. Stealth classes are similar: it takes zero skill or effort to make their initial move.

 

Range and stealth classes employ skill in their secondary effects -- to survive, to kite, to counter enemy CCs, to time CCs, etc. They add skill to shuffle their DPS up to help time burst, etc.

 

Their primary role happens automatically, and their secondary capabilities (kiting, cc, healing, survival, burst) extend and enhance their ability to do their primary function.

 

Sent/Marauders work differently.

 

Despite the availability of force charge, we do not get the initiative of 1-2-3-4 DPS execution. There's too much CC spam and too much client-server desync to allow Sent/Maras to simply 1-2-3-4 to unload DPS. The Sent/mara actually require their secondary roles -- anti-kiting, survival, positioning -- before they can begin doing their primary role.

 

It actually requires the application of skill for a Sent/Mara to do begin to 1-2-3-4. The Sent/Mara 1-2-3-4 begins AFTER the skillcheck. For all other DPS classes, the 1-2-3-4 happens BEFORE the skillcheck. As I said above, for them skill comes into play when they want to survive or kite or heal or survive after executing their 1-2-3-4.

 

That is why so many Sent/Maras perform so ridiculously poorly. They do not meet the skill threshold to even be able to start doing *anything*. Nevermind being very good or not.

 

Many BH/Sorcs/Ops etc are just as terrible. However, they perform much better because they can actually do something in the first place, even if it's mostly worthless.

 

 

 

Excellent post that explains the issues regarding bads and sentinels, well done.

[McVade]

Trolling? I think you should go back to watching your focus bar and "missing all the action" rofl.

 

If you just taught me your super secret "Sentinel PvP rotation", I wouldn't have to. Scrub troll fails hard at trolling. lol

Edited February 1, 2012 by McVade

[-Arcane-]

Step 1, read all your skills and talent points

 

 

Step 2, avoid asking silly questions on the forums like:

 

2. How do you know when your Ataru form procs? I see lots of numbers, but I can't exactly pinpoint which are they. Seems like you need to know when you go into Combat Trance to get those big Blade Storm hits.

 

 

Once you have mastered these first steps we can begin to discuss build and rotation.

Edited February 1, 2012 by -Arcane-

[McVade]

Step 1, read all your skills and talent points

 

 

Step 2, avoid asking silly questions on the forums like:

 

Once you have mastered these first steps we can begin to discuss build and rotation.

 

Yes, we don't ask questions on a forum about a spec you've never played. Forums are only for trolling, isn't that right, Arcane?

 

And *** is your name Arcane? Miss your WoW mage or something?

Edited February 1, 2012 by McVade

[-Arcane-]

So you "never played" one of your 3 available talent trees, epic.

 

 

Actually I have been using Arcane since 1993 on the a MUD called Discworld, if you are old enough to know what MUDs are.

 

 

Kinda predates WoW hugely...

[McVade]

So you "never played" one of your 3 available talent trees, epic.

 

Actually I have been using Arcane since 1993 on the a MUD called Discworld, if you are old enough to know what MUDs are.

 

Kinda predates WoW hugely...

 

No, I haven't. I don't even see how that's an insult?

 

BTW: Aren't you a little old for trolling? Mom's basement, I sense in you.