Difference between false marketing and fraud.

[ShadCougar]

The problem is, people have a rather horrible atitude of "He has the shiny toy! I want the shiney toy NOW Mommy! Or I'm gonna hold my breath till my face turns blue!" (Often known as the Varuca Salt Syndrome.. which of course leads to you getting tossed down a garbage shoot)

 

I preordered in late november. I hope to be playing by the end of the 15th... if my wife lets me

 

 

I hate to admitted, but if you pre-order late it's your fault. I could have order in September, but I didn't order until October 22 and entered by pre-order code on the 29 or October. Also on the advertising it was always stated that early access was first come first server. Thus, I don't see the problem.

[Compression]

I think I am ready to admit defeat with these forums. I can't believe people are already making accusations of fraud and 'false marketing'. You are entitled to NOTHING more than has been delivered.

[Trixy]

Rabble rabble rabble!!!

[TheHauntingBard]

Bioware/EA made sure they covered themselves in case something would go wrong.

That's why they wrote things like 'may' and the rest with small letters, it's 100% fair.

They are untouchable but of course it might leave a bit of a bad back taste here and there.

 

What bothers me a bit is that instead of making the wave system work they bother with this.

They basically made a wave system with the though it's only about the US.

It's extremely self centered and well just not so bright.

 

If they looked a bit further no one would have been bothered.

 

Problem is they don't separate US from the EU so we share the queue.

Most people stick to their own time zone, the few that don't are a minority.

With EA backing them up they could have just done the EU waves in the morning here.

 

When you use waves but lock EU to the US timezone you basically remove the reason why waves should be there.

[Tintagel]

Games companies have become very good at given one impression(Which is normal our fault reading between the lines), while leaving plenty of wiggle room if they change their mind.

[Lord_of_Stone]

http://www.flametongue.com/photos/swtor-img1.jpg

 

Dont even see 5 days here.

[tormeanted]

Stop getting all mad, I said it could be "up to" 10 inches.

You realize what "up to" means right? I wasn't lying...

[Trixy]

http://www.flametongue.com/photos/swtor-img1.jpg

 

Dont even see 5 days here.

 

It's on the Pre-Order Redemption FAQ that most people with foresight take a look at before they purchase.

[EmmanuelFR]

There are alot of debates on the forums, where some people claim they "thought" they had 5 days early access when they bought the product, and some that attack the posters by saying, read the text properly.

 

Now, EA and Bioware have not comited fraud, they did not state that you would get 5 days pre access, this is true. Thus you can not attack the company for fraud of some kind.

 

I do however, think that false marketing is something that is not far from the truth. When a company states that you can buy a product for X amount of money, and front that you can get additional perks with the purchase with large fonts, and deeper into the contract, where the consumer must take action and look beyond the offer to find something that actually contradicts the main marketed offer this is borderline false marketing.

 

An example, you go to a automobile shop. You pick a car online, the new model ect and you pay 50.000 euro for the "new model" that you picked out with the salesman. Car isnt out yet, you picked the car from a picture on the web or in a pamplet. When the car comes, you payed the money and you get a toy car. If the costumer read all the text, behind the offer and deal there was a small text emplying that you "might" get a toy car. This company would suffer consequenses for false marketing, even if the text underlining said "might get a toy car". Or to compare to this, you get the car 2 years later, "up to 2 years" in fine print before delivery, but the main marketing board says, buy this model and you will get it today!

 

All of us here, on the forum and fans of SWTOR that have been hanging around here since the forum was up, we know pretty much everything about the product. Me, i didnt look up the fine print when i pre ordered the product, i just saw early access, 5 days and bought it.

Im not bitter, i realize now the wave system and what not, but i understand if people get upset and i think they have good reason to, if they didnt know about the underlines.

 

If i had a mail, in say june that said, if you buy this game now, you will be first to enter pre access, before everyone else, explaining the system of waves ect then all of us, or most atleast would have preordered it then. As a layman, new to mmos and such can even read on the main website that the "pre access is open now..." ect. But when you click the actual link to "investigate" you get to know more about the depth of the pre access system ect.

You ve forgotten something VERY important : laws depend of the country. What you re saying may be true in USA but not true in my native country for exemple. And, for exemple, in my country every product sold must respect our laws which may be different from yours for all that concerns consumer potection. Edited December 15, 2011 by EmmanuelFR

[criticalchris]

It sort of reminds me of the Black Friday sales you see. An ad will say that there is $100 off some awesome flat screen, then you go to the store bright and early on the busiest shopping day of the year only to be told that they are sold out because in the fine print it said ..... "Quantity: 2 in stock per store,subject to availabilty."

 

The stores know thats crap, thats why its in the fine print and they know you likely won't read it but they still want you in their store. Anything to make a buck though.

 

One company lost and had to pay fines in Sweden for that type of marketing. I know international laws are not as hard when it comes to fineprint and visual marketing, they have better things to do, in Sweden however. They do not have any better things to do, so usually when they check if something is false marketing they ask say 1000 costumers that saw the ad and bought the product, if they realized and knew that something that contradicts the deal was in the fineprint, if they didnt know then the company usually gets a fine or consequence for false marketing.

 

When a MMO "usually" says "up to 5 days" pre access one assumes, i know i do, that they say "up to" because something might happen. Server goes down, explodes and what not. I dont think people assume its a V.I.P preorder system, because well... i dont think it has been done before.

[Shlamorel]

It's on the Pre-Order Redemption FAQ that most people with foresight take a look at before they purchase.

 

Can you show us that FAQ, though?

 

I'm more than willing to accept that people may be right in the false advertisement, but thus far we have provided links showing our views supported (e.g., screenshots earlier in this thread), but nobody has been able to show clear screenshots or links to pages that say "5 days early if you pre-order" (unless it includes "up to").

 

Edit: I believe in your post you were saying that the FAQ says that people who pre-ordered get 5 days early pre-access - correct me if I'm wrong. It's hard to tell which side you're arguing.

Edited December 15, 2011 by Shlamorel

[Yori]

http://www.flametongue.com/photos/swtor-img1.jpg

 

Dont even see 5 days here.

 

I sure that big "Learn More" button does, you know the one intelligent consumers would click. Anyway isn't today suppose to be the original start date of the early access? Just trying to understand why people are so upset. We did get 2 extra days that put everyone 2 days ahead of where we would have been.

[Neofate]

I never, EVER, saw any banner that said flat out "You can get 5 days of early access".

 

The terms "five days" and "early access", were ALWAYS proceeding the words "up to".

 

ALWAYS.

 

In the same large font. Right in front of your face.

 

I flat out knew that derping hard like I did and waiting until December to put in my code I would only get a day or two of early access.

 

Because I know how to read.

 

Thing is with your so called 'derping'.. your gonna get at least 4 days of access.

 

No one is getting in later than Friday. (Unless they haven't pre-ordered the game yet).

 

If they are getting through Oct-Nov today (thurs) then there is no doubt they can handle December orders that don't even equal a month on Fri.

 

This goes without asking.

 

As for the whole post -- and advert.

 

I think there is no real legal precedence here -- That said.. I think if a million of the people who ordered this game, all were serious about going for a lawsuit.. they'd win. That doesn't mean it will happen, or should happen.

 

What I'm saying -- is EA/BW used a marketing gimmick to get sales.. and it worked. But it is shady (used car salesman) type of tactics at best.

 

Sure, the 'up to' means if you complain about it .. you are "QQing, or Whining, or are an idiot, can't read.. and all the random things people say".

 

No.. it means they put and 'up to' in a phrase and people saw in BIG bold letters 5 days and Early access. and went for it.

 

Do I care -- not really. They , despite doing quite a few things poorly.. and dropping grace period etc.. are actually rolling out the launch quite well. Further, everyone is going to get 4 at minimum out of those 5 days...

 

Sure, no one is 'entitled' to anything -- in fact you aren't even entitled to be able to play the game half the time.. if you read the terms of service or EULA.

 

But .. just strictly speaking -- what is WRITTEN, and advertised doesn't necessarily mean it would hold up in a court of law as a legal precedence.

 

Again, if a million people really cared enough about the issue to push a class action on EA -- They'd win. Likely EA would just settle in some way.. but they'd win. Then in the future this type of wording would be much riskier to use.

 

But,.. Frankly.. I'm happy with the way it turned out.

 

If this turned out to be most people getting 1 day of access.. I wouldn't cry and say I was cancelling and go ape on the forums,.. but I would NOT be happy with the way things turned out.

 

To me.. what all this has done -- is turn this company into an entity I just don't trust. What does that mean? Not much in the grand scheme. I still will play, I will subscribe for a little while anyway. If the game keeps me interested I could care less about a 'greedy' company.

 

The same goes for the vast majority of the players -- if the game suits them,.. they aren't going to care who is behind the scenes.

 

The only problem with that -- is Bioware is EA's puppet now. EA has put strings on Bioware (as they acquired them) and that seems like it is going to result in some shady and unwanted moves by a game developing company. EA will pull the strings of it's puppet, Bioware (which happens when you sell out),.. when it comes to anything money related. Which has a strong chance of effecting the content of the game at times.

 

Bottom line the game hasn't even launched yet, and there are some major issues that have created serious havoc with large majorities of their player base. That doesn't bode well for the future.

 

I honestly think Bioware, besides their lack of MMO experience, would do a great job at running the game -- but with EA pulling their strings they won't get to run it as they wish..

 

If EA knows whats best for their "Money Machine" here in SWTOR, they'll leave BW the heck alone to develop the game and handle the community.

 

I Just don't think the bean counters at Electronic Arts will let that happen.

 

Time will tell..

[entropyrl]

Ya today is the 15th , and by today almost all pre oders will be in for 5 days of early access.... so even if the fine print says up to 5 days....

 

Thing is they gave some people 7 DAYS , thats right more then the marketed .....so how is this false marketing, ohhh right they gave people more time then they said, wow what about of bleep bleeps, omg how can they be so mean, like Bioware, you are all liars, how dare you give us more then you promies you lying cheating good for nothing richards.

 

 

Seriously ?? this is your post ?? Do any of you people ever get sick of complaining about this topic, there is already 39559083459034859034589340509385934589340583490568349 threads on this,

 

You know if there was like 2-3 threads made on this I could understand, but seriously give it up theres already enough threads about this topic, join in on one of them.

[Asavrede]

This thread is ridiculous. The marketing said "up to 5 days". Release is the 20th, and they still have time to get everyone in by today, the 15th. So there's no problem - people are only antsy because Bioware actually started the pre-play earlier than promised, which everyone should just be happy about.

 

So stop spamming the forums with pointless complaining, PLEASE!

[criticalchris]

You ve forgotten something VERY important : laws depend of the country. What you re saying may be true in USA but not true in my native country for exemple. And, for exemple, in my country every product sold must respect our laws which may be different from yours for all that concerns consumer potection.

 

Its true, what you say. I do not want to drag Bioware and EA to court or something, im simply saying that maybe we shouldnt be to hard on people that feel that they have been misled because i think that they have good reason to feel bad about the pre release offer ect.

[Neofate]

http://www.flametongue.com/photos/swtor-img1.jpg

 

Dont even see 5 days here.

 

Yup noticed that a little while back. I'm glad they are doing that -- Because it isn't possible to get 5 days in any shape or form now.

 

Which I think is what they should have done all along. As the schedule changed with numbers of pre-orders.. the 'up to' number should have changed.

 

If they didn't do the extra 2 days.. this would have gone from.. "Good job BW!" to.. holy S... fest.

[Rotbag]

Games companies have become very good at given one impression(Which is normal our fault reading between the lines), while leaving plenty of wiggle room if they change their mind.

 

BW could not have been clearer. How would you inform customer better than ' The order in which you preorder will be the order in which you receive EGA? '

[AlpsStranger]

Stop getting all mad, I said it could be "up to" 10 inches.

You realize what "up to" means right? I wasn't lying...

 

Ha! +1 internets.

[Tocaseven]

theres 200,000 lvl 50s and your talking about toy cars ?

[Neofate]

Its true, what you say. I do not want to drag Bioware and EA to court or something, im simply saying that maybe we shouldnt be to hard on people that feel that they have been misled because i think that they have good reason to feel bad about the pre release offer ect.

 

Good point.

 

I agree,.. alot of people have been trolling any and everyone who complains to any degree about the 5 days, etc.

 

They have a semi- legit complaint, and certainly the RIGHT to express it.

 

Imo if you don't agree with them,.. go to another thread. If something bothers a person so much they feel the need to post.. there is more going on than they realize. But that goes into a whole other league of discussion. =)

[ShadCougar]

Honestly, preorder is not importasnt.. you know what is?

 

WHERE IS MY ORANGE PIXEL?!?!?

[Wubanos]

Ya today is the 15th , and by today almost all pre oders will be in for 5 days of early access.... so even if the fine print says up to 5 days....

 

Thing is they gave some people 7 DAYS , thats right more then the marketed .....so how is this false marketing, ohhh right they gave people more time then they said, wow what about of bleep bleeps, omg how can they be so mean, like Bioware, you are all liars, how dare you give us more then you promies you lying cheating good for nothing richards.

 

 

Seriously ?? this is your post ?? Do any of you people ever get sick of complaining about this topic, there is already 39559083459034859034589340509385934589340583490568349 threads on this,

 

You know if there was like 2-3 threads made on this I could understand, but seriously give it up theres already enough threads about this topic, join in on one of them.

 

Actually UP TO thats the same wording that can backfire on them in a lawsuit when they increase the time.

 

They have promissed everyone up to 5 days but they handed out more to a few. sounds silly yes, but in the letter of the law it don't really matter.

Edited December 15, 2011 by Wubanos

[Trixy]

Can you show us that FAQ, though?

 

I'm more than willing to accept that people may be right in the false advertisement, but thus far we have provided links showing our views supported (e.g., screenshots earlier in this thread), but nobody has been able to show clear screenshots or links to pages that say "5 days early if you pre-order" (unless it includes "up to").

 

Edit: I believe in your post you were saying that the FAQ says that people who pre-ordered get 5 days early pre-access - correct me if I'm wrong. It's hard to tell which side you're arguing.

 

No problem! Though in the FAQ you have to pull out your reading comprehension to actually "Get" that it's up to 5-7 days.

 

The link to the FAQ is: Here.

 

Scroll down a little bit. It answers when EGA begins, and when it ends.

 

Edit: And as an added bonus, it hammers in that it's going to be a staggered invitation, yet again, and that your position in line is dictated purely by when you register your Pre-Order

Edited December 15, 2011 by Trixy

[criticalchris]

Most people probably saw the "up to 5 days" did everyone expect it to be a V.I.P line?

Personaly i thought the up to 5 days was to assure the costumers that if the servers go down, crash or something unexpected happens then we might need a day or so to repair it. We put "up to" so that you are aware of the problems that might occur.

 

I didnt expect the "up to 5 days" to be a line of people getting in thru waves, staying up adapting to US timelines spamming f5, following derps from bioware on twitter to see whats going on, not knowing what wave youre in ect.

 

None of the resellers i usually buy from, that sold the game stated that it was a preorder line ect. If i knew in June, when you could preorder that you would be in "first waves" then naturally i would have bought it then.