Why is Crafted Gear not the best?

[Forsbacka]

How? The only way to craft end-game gear is still by running end-game content, or buying the stuff from someone that's running it.

 

Ah, didnt notice you saying that. I said earlier that crafting endgame gear would need key mats to drop in raid instances, so i guess were on same side.

[bknemesis]

There's always a "best in slot" for your current character build. What that best in slot may be is totally up to you, and how you want your character to work, and crafting makes it possible, because you don't get loot tables with over 9000 different items in them, but instead just a handful of different mats, which are combined by a crafter into the item you want

 

You didn't read the rest of my post... having played nearly every mmo other then wow or rift over the last 16 years (since UO) I understand the concept of tailored gear... and other items..

Crafting should reward the time invested..

Whats the point of crafting for a week to get something that drops 90% of the time in a instance that takes 30mins to run?

 

With he current mods system all they would have to do is add lvl 50 mods which RE'd to the various purple schematics produce a mod on par with one found in raid and pvp gear...

This would let people tailor raid and pvp gear to their spec (by having mod variety).

Allow the use of oranges and other purples for people to customize their looks (because we don't want to look like everyone else)

Give crafters something to do with their time and money investment

Purple Items are crafted from purple mats which are time consuming and expensive to get..

It would actually complement the current system to allow customization of Raid and PvP sets, and would allow others to setup oranges to similar stats.. Raid, and PvP gear would keep the set bonus's but biowares already said these could be pulled and applied to oranges in the future.

[Truga]

Crafted Gear should NEVER be better than what drops out of operations. Flashpoints, I'm open to discussion.

 

Otherwise there is no mouse wheel for people to pursue and all you have to do is buy/level your way to the optimum gear.

 

Err, how is the game different currently? All you need to do is run a raid a couple times, and you get the gear. What difference does it make when you can use that same time (probably more, loot is crappier outside OPs) somewhere else grinding credits?

 

And everyone is saying that core materials for the good gear should drop in Operations, so someone still has to run them for you to get your gear.

[Deaus]

I don't understand these arguments. What's the point in having a crafter create items, from matts you get? It's just make them a huge middle man, and it's not like it promotes any kind of "social" interaction.

 

If recipies are rare, and only a few people on the server might have it, you just screwed over low pop servers, as now they can't get end game gear.

 

If recipies are common, i just ask my guild and they do it for free, creating an unneccasry wait for them to come online, or for me to get to them.

 

And the same argument applies to having lots of matts.

 

If you are on a busy server, there will be alot of matts cheap, because raiders will have too much, so they sell it, but everyones selling it so its cheap.

 

If you are on a slow server, there wont be, so prices will be high. How is this fair? If i play on server 'a' i can go into end game raiding immediately because i can just buy the gear, if i play on server 'b', i may never get into end game raiding.

[Forsbacka]

Maybe they should just mail BiS gear to people that dont run operations or wont be doing rated WZs so they can feel special with gear that they dont need for anything.

[MichaelLatta]

Cause it would take incentive out of gear oriented game. Endgame PvP and Pve would be pretty much dead and this game would be even more of an solo RPG game.

 

I have no problem with top rank crafted gear requiring as much effort as raiding to get equal gear. That can mean lots of missions for bop mats, it can mean traveling all over the game getting mats or exchanging one mat for another 20x1 or what ever. There are lots of options for end game crafting content that limits the availability as much as top end pvp or pve. That was what was advertised in early game descriptions.

 

It is ego and hubris (not the quote in particular), to assume raid or pvp have to be the best. There is room in the game for many ways to achieve "best". It will take some innovation and effort to balance. Given how easy top tier pvp gear is reported to get now, that is needed anyway.

[Truga]

Whats the point of crafting for a week to get something that drops 90% of the time in a instance that takes 30mins to run?

 

I did read your post, and I agreed with it. I just wanted to point out that for a single build, there will always be "best in slot" equipment.

 

Also, the key mats for end-game purples should drop in raids. If you're a crafter you can afford them anyway, and if you're just another soloer... Well, you're going to have to sweat some blood to get the cash for them.

 

And it's how it should be. Getting your gear crafted should be the easiest way of obtaining it, however key materials need to drop in raids. That way you ensure that the raiders have a reason for running raids. I don't mind a full BoP drop in a raid here and there, but everyone should get a couple mats on each raid.

 

That way, you have a sense of progression (I only need to run three more to get my stuff), you can trade the mats to get what you want to craft. And if people want to sell all their raid looted mats to buy stims, I'm fine with that too

 

Sure, like this people that both raid and craft will have it "easy", but to be honest, the amount of time invested to do both _should_ pay off.

[Forsbacka]

I have no problem with top rank crafted gear requiring as much effort as raiding to get equal gear. That can mean lots of missions for bop mats, it can mean traveling all over the game getting mats or exchanging one mat for another 20x1 or what ever. There are lots of options for end game crafting content that limits the availability as much as top end pvp or pve. That was what was advertised in early game descriptions.

 

It is ego and hubris (not the quote in particular), to assume raid or pvp have to be the best. There is room in the game for many ways to achieve "best". It will take some innovation and effort to balance. Given how easy top tier pvp gear is reported to get now, that is needed anyway.

 

Well it will change when rated WZS for premade teams comes live. But anyway, i understand that people who do PvP needs BiS gear to stay competetive, i undersand that raiders need BiS gear and upgrades to down new operations but if you dont do neither, why you even need BiS gear or are you so gear oriented that you want BiS gear for vanity purposes?

Edited January 27, 2012 by Forsbacka

[Truga]

I don't understand these arguments. What's the point in having a crafter create items, from matts you get?

 

Well, the first reason that springs to my mind is, I STILL HAVEN'T GOT MY SWORD OF SHADOWS AFTER RUNNING 200 VAULT OF NIGHT ARGHHH.

[Deaus]

Well, the first reason that springs to my mind is, I STILL HAVEN'T GOT MY SWORD OF SHADOWS AFTER RUNNING 200 VAULT OF NIGHT ARGHHH.

 

I enjoy the fact you didn't respond the my entire post, and instead just took the first sentence. As I'm fairly sure it was made clear, the problem is any where you can buy or sell gear from crafters, it makes servers that are just easier to do end game content over others.

 

If you are are a low pop server, enjoy never getting that sword anyway.

 

If you are on a high pop server, here have it for free.

[Truga]

Why you even need BiS gear or are you so gear oriented that you want BiS gear for vanity purposes?

 

What I do with my time is entirely my choice. This is the same argument that raiders and pvpers use when they dismiss casuals, by the way. But yes, maybe I want them for vanity purposes. Maybe I just have fun crafting, like you have fun raiding? Why should I be punished for that?

 

And for the record, I like both raiding and PVP. Is it wrong that I want to do crafting to? Cause right now, apart from biochem, it's literally useless for me.

[Truga]

I enjoy the fact you didn't respond the my entire post, and instead just took the first sentence. As I'm fairly sure it was made clear, the problem is any where you can buy or sell gear from crafters, it makes servers that are just easier to do end game content over others.

 

If you are are a low pop server, enjoy never getting that sword anyway.

 

If you are on a high pop server, here have it for free.

 

Except, this simply isn't true. Less people equals less demand. The amount of items per person stays the same.

[Greyfeld]

I enjoy the fact you didn't respond the my entire post, and instead just took the first sentence. As I'm fairly sure it was made clear, the problem is any where you can buy or sell gear from crafters, it makes servers that are just easier to do end game content over others.

 

If you are are a low pop server, enjoy never getting that sword anyway.

 

If you are on a high pop server, here have it for free.

 

If you're on a low pop server, it's going to be a pain in the *** to get raids together anyway, so you're boned no matter which approach you decide to take to gear acquisition and game design.

 

Crafted gear, especially considering the sheer number of materials and REing it takes to get the best schematics, should always be BiS over raiding. These BiS pieces should also be BoP.

 

On the other hand, there should be other pieces that are BoE that are raid-equivalent.

 

Both of these should require materials from raids.

[Truga]

If you're on a low pop server, it's going to be a pain in the *** to get raids together anyway, so you're boned no matter which approach you decide to take to gear acquisition and game design.

 

Crafted gear, especially considering the sheer number of materials and REing it takes to get the best schematics, should always be BiS over raiding. These BiS pieces should also be BoP.

 

On the other hand, there should be other pieces that are BoE that are raid-equivalent.

 

Both of these should require materials from raids.

 

I could get behind this, but then you'll get people who don't want to craft whining about how crafters are OP, and they are forced to craft.

 

IMHO the whole bind on pickup mentality needs to get scrapped once and for all. If inflation would become a problem, introduce credit sinks. If you have access to the game's database balancing economy, while no easy task, is quite doable. Bound items are just the easy way out of it, because credits aren't actually worth anything.

 

If I grind 10 million credits over a week for an item or if I grind raid for a week for an item or if I grind mats for a week for an item, what difference does it make?

Edited January 27, 2012 by Truga

[Chromiie]

These BiS pieces should also be BoP.

 

Why must they be BoP? I'll post this again. I wish crafting was liked how he described.

 

 

 

The best stuff is always going to come from other players, and then be made by other players. There will be stuff that you can craft that is among the best stuff in the entire game. So very close to the top tier that you could get for anything..

 

http://massively.joystiq.com/2010/11/12/massively-interviews-bioware-on-swtors-crafting-and-pvp/

Edited January 27, 2012 by Chromiie

[daMarek]

For every problem there is a solution - some better than others.

 

So one of the problems that people point out is that if crafted gear is the best gear, than it can be sold and therefore people who have put forth no effort can afford it.

 

First of all, this a problem with a broken in game economy. If a player can afford the outrageous cost of BIS crafted gear, then logically they must have put forth some effort to obtain that amount of money... UNLESS, the economy is broken, which is likely the case. Almost every MMO has a broken economy because of the fact that money or (resources and value) are constantly being created, recirculated and never go away. Think about it.. what happens when a country continues to print money, the value of their dollar depreciates. That is essentially what happens in MMOs, every time you complete a quest, every time you run an instance you are printing more money into the game world. This naturally causes items to inflate. Anyways, jumping off topic .

 

 

One solution (I'm sure I can spend 20 minutes and come up with a dozen more), is to have the player combine the materials into a crafters quest. What do I mean? So you spend weeks and months raiding, killed all the bosses and you finally have acquired all the materials to have your epic chest crafted. You right click one of the mats in your bag and it checks to see if they are all present and it creates a work order.

 

Now the fun part. I've never seen this before, and I'd be shocked if there were a game out there that had this (aside maybe EVE), but. Lets say you take that work order and you dump it on the GTN, and instead of setting a buyout price on it with intention to sell, you set a Maximum amount you are willing to pay to have someone craft the item for you.

 

Crafters browse the GTN (or town billboards if you're in a fantasy game) and they see a list of work orders. The crafters get to choose what items they want to bid on, and they bid lower than the max the customer is willing to pay, competing for the job, until the auction is over.

 

If the crafter wins, they receive a quest to create the item along with the work order (crafting token or item). They craft a SHELL of the item, not the REAL item, and return to the GTN and complete the quest by fulfilling the work order. This gives them the money they bid on the job, and emails the customer the REAL... BOP item.

 

If they accept the quest and fail to produce the item, the work order is useless to them, and the customer is never charged, the auction re-opens.

 

Just a loose idea, and sure there are loopholes but, you get the point. Just because it hasn't been done before, doesn't mean there aren't other solutions. The problem is, ideas are a dime dozen in the game industry, and innovation=risk. Investors aren't willing to take risks and don't generally understand /have no passion for games. Since they are the ones with the money, they usually win, and in their ignorance we end up with the same homogenous BS over and over. Yup, WOW had 11 million users, make it just like WOW!

 

Sigh.

 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

Really good writeup. And yes, it works like that in EVE. Even better, you can make like contracts, where you don't even need the matts, and the crafter can pick up the contract and get to work to get the matts (since it makes sense to have gathering professions relevant to your crafting profession) and make the item for you and cash in.

 

In this way even crafting items below your level is greatly incentivized for profit, as you pick up the contract you know somebody will pay you, rather than making 10 crystals hoping that some of them will sell sometime soon.

 

Gosh thinking about this makes me wanna re-activate my eve account (plus i could really fly a spaceship again)

[terminova]

And I'll bet that's where a lot of PvP on the PvE servers comes from.

 

That's where the vast majority of players on PvE servers in MMOs that have BGs/WZs do their PvP. I haven't bothered with PvP in this game, but 98% of the PvP I did on my paladin in WoW was in BGs.

[Nitewolfe]

i completely disagree with the OP the best gear should only come from defeating the hardest raid boss!

[Kunra]

i completely disagree with the OP the best gear should only come from defeating the hardest raid boss!

 

I disagree with your disagree and agree with the OP.

Edited January 27, 2012 by Kunra

[Truga]

i completely disagree with the OP the best gear should only come from defeating the hardest raid boss!

 

http://massively.joystiq.com/2010/11/12/massively-interviews-bioware-on-swtors-crafting-and-pvp/

 

It's a good thing then that it's confirmed the best gear will also come from crafting.

[daMarek]

I wonder if there are any awesome schematics in game which havent been discovered yet. Think magenta and pink crystals, nobody knew to make them until recently.

[Chromiie]

i completely disagree with the OP the best gear should only come from defeating the hardest raid boss!

 

Why? You gave no reason for it. Is it a time issue? Because I just had a Crew Skill mission that took over 2 hours. I spent a **** ton of credits to learn some mastercraft schematics and just making Rakat bracers and belts with augment slots.

[Truga]

I wonder if there are any awesome schematics in game which havent been discovered yet. Think magenta and pink crystals, nobody knew to make them until recently.

 

Drake blueprints. The most profitable schematic. Oh wait, wrong game...

[Chromiie]

Bumping this *****.

[Jeia]

For every problem there is a solution - some better than others.

 

So one of the problems that people point out is that if crafted gear is the best gear, than it can be sold and therefore people who have put forth no effort can afford it.

 

First of all, this a problem with a broken in game economy. If a player can afford the outrageous cost of BIS crafted gear, then logically they must have put forth some effort to obtain that amount of money... UNLESS, the economy is broken, which is likely the case. Almost every MMO has a broken economy because of the fact that money or (resources and value) are constantly being created, recirculated and never go away. Think about it.. what happens when a country continues to print money, the value of their dollar depreciates. That is essentially what happens in MMOs, every time you complete a quest, every time you run an instance you are printing more money into the game world. This naturally causes items to inflate. Anyways, jumping off topic .

 

 

One solution (I'm sure I can spend 20 minutes and come up with a dozen more), is to have the player combine the materials into a crafters quest. What do I mean? So you spend weeks and months raiding, killed all the bosses and you finally have acquired all the materials to have your epic chest crafted. You right click one of the mats in your bag and it checks to see if they are all present and it creates a work order.

 

Now the fun part. I've never seen this before, and I'd be shocked if there were a game out there that had this (aside maybe EVE), but. Lets say you take that work order and you dump it on the GTN, and instead of setting a buyout price on it with intention to sell, you set a Maximum amount you are willing to pay to have someone craft the item for you.

 

Crafters browse the GTN (or town billboards if you're in a fantasy game) and they see a list of work orders. The crafters get to choose what items they want to bid on, and they bid lower than the max the customer is willing to pay, competing for the job, until the auction is over.

 

If the crafter wins, they receive a quest to create the item along with the work order (crafting token or item). They craft a SHELL of the item, not the REAL item, and return to the GTN and complete the quest by fulfilling the work order. This gives them the money they bid on the job, and emails the customer the REAL... BOP item.

 

If they accept the quest and fail to produce the item, the work order is useless to them, and the customer is never charged, the auction re-opens.

 

Just a loose idea, and sure there are loopholes but, you get the point. Just because it hasn't been done before, doesn't mean there aren't other solutions. The problem is, ideas are a dime dozen in the game industry, and innovation=risk. Investors aren't willing to take risks and don't generally understand /have no passion for games. Since they are the ones with the money, they usually win, and in their ignorance we end up with the same homogenous BS over and over. Yup, WOW had 11 million users, make it just like WOW!

 

Sigh.

 

 

Also quoting this, an excellent idea.

 

I regard myself as a social player, I don't have the time to raid but I do enjoy crafting.

 

The above suggestion is excellent and I think you should post on all up and coming MMOs' forums in the hopes that an enlightned dev will pick it up.

Edited January 27, 2012 by Jeia