Exar Kun vs. Lord Vitiate

[Lexandar]

I'll laugh if, after all this Sidious V Vitiate discussion, it transpires that Sidious is Vitiate reborn.

[Rabrac]

I thought this was Exar Kun VS Vidiate.

 

I say Exar Kun, because i always like the past more. I think we should agree that all these guys (the above 2, Sidious, Luke, Vader, etc) are of similar strength. Sometimes one of them wins, sometimes the other one wins. It depends on the circumstances really. We need to keep in mind that all these guys were important in their era. They were the strongest at their time. Exar Kun would definately beat anyone on his time. Vidiate would also beat anyone on his time. What happens is that they get old and someone younger comes and takes their place. It does not mean that the younger one is the strongest because the older one is not at his prime anymore.

[Jurakan]

Very nice post Rhyltran! I stand corrected. I do have a concern. You put Revan down for not doing the destructive things Sidius did (despite Revan being good and not evil) yet you believe this.

 

 

"...Yoda could defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history."

-- The New Essential Chronology, page 84

 

Yoda didn't do half of the things Sidius did yet you believe he was capable of defeating him. My point is the lenght of his knowledge in the dark side and his destructive powers does not make him invincible. He was handled by a broken Darth Vader. Do you think he ever foresaw that? He underestimated the power of the Light side a lot and driven by fear makes him vulnerable in many ways. This is what this is about. We are not comparing who has been written the most about. We are saying in a fight, who would win. Read the title. You can say Palpatine set himself up against Mace Windu and it's probably so but had Anakin had a brain Sidius would have not walked out of that situation in the weakened state "he put himself on". Vititate had Revan beaten but don't say that he did not put up a fight. Who in the Old Republic era stood up against Vitiate and not only survived but also was able to hurt him.

 

 

Cadeus is another force users at Luke Skywalker's level who also mastered both sides of the force. Don't forget EU history changes whenever they add new content. Maybe Palpatine was the most powerful Sith Lord in history or maybe he was until TOR history was written.

Edited January 27, 2012 by Jurakan

[Rhyltran]

Very nice post Rhyltran! I stand corrected. I do have a concern. You put Revan down for not doing the destructive things Sidius did (despite Revan being good and not evil) yet you believe this.

 

 

"...Yoda could defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history."

-- The New Essential Chronology, page 84

 

Yoda didn't do half of the things Sidius did yet you believe he was capable of defeating him. My point is the lenght of his knowledge in the dark side and his destructive powers does not make him inmune to the Jedi in lightsaber combat. This is what this is about. We are not comparing who has been written the most about. We are saying in a fight, who would win. Read the title. You can say Palpatine set himself up against Mace Windu and it's probably so but had anakin had a brain Sidius would have not walked out of that situation. Vititate had Revan beaten but don't say that he did not put up a fight. Who in the Old Republic era stood up against Vitiate and not only survived but also was able to hurt him.

 

I wasn't putting down Revan. Revan is by far one of the most powerful characters in Star Wars history. Just not as strong as Sidious. You also quoted the quote wrong. This is the exact quote.

 

"“Yoda went after Palpatine in the empty Senate chamber, but could not defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history.”(The New Essential Chronology, page 84 )"

 

Yoda couldn't beat Sidious. The novelization makes that clear as well with this..

 

There came a turning point in the clash of the light against the dark.

 

It did not come from a flash of lightning or slash of energy blade, though there were these in plenty; it did not come from a flying kick or a surgically precise punch, though these were traded, too.

 

It came as the battle shifted from the holding office to the great Chancellor's Podium; it came as the hydraulic lift beneath the Podium raised it on its tower of durasteel a hundred meters and more, so that it became a laserpoint of battle flaring at the focus of the vast emptiness of the Senate Arena; it came as the Force and the podium's controls ripped delegation pods free of the curving walls and made of them hammers, battering rams, catapult stones crashing and crushing against each other in a rolling thunder-roar that echoed the Senate's cheers for the galaxy's new Emperor.

 

It came when the avatar of light resolved into the lineage of the Jedi; when the lineage of the Jedi refined into one single Jedi.

 

It came when Yoda found himself alone against the dark.

 

In that lightning-speared tornado of feet and fists and blades and bashing machines, his vision finally pierced the darkness that had clouded the Force.

 

Finally, he saw the truth.

 

This truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known...

 

just--

 

didn't--

 

have it.

 

He'd never had it. He had lost before he started.

 

He had lost before he was born.

 

The Sith had changed. The Sith had grown, had adapted, had invested a thousand years' intensive study into every aspect of not only the Force but Jedi lore itself, in preparation for exactly this day. The Sith had remade themselves.

 

They had become new.

 

While the Jedi--

 

The Jedi had spent that same millennium training to refight the last war.

 

The new Sith could not be destroyed with a lightsaber; they could not be burned away by any torch of the Force. The brighter the light, the darker their shadow. How could one win a war against the dark, when the war itself had become the dark's own weapon?

 

He knew, at that instant, that this insight held the hope of the galaxy. But if he fell here, that hope would die with him.

 

Yoda had no chance at beating Sidious.

 

Also Mace and Yoda against Sidious.. this was his older body. Post Return of the Jedi he was FAR more powerful. He switched to a younger clone body.

 

Imagine for a moment. You are a Jedi. You study until you're 80. Obviously your body is older and weaker but you make up for it with knowledge of the force and experience. Now take that and put yourself in a body that's only 20. Now you have a youthful body. Capable of far more energy and power. You have the speed, agility, and strength of use with the experience of 80 years of training. You also retain your mastery of the force. This makes you far more powerful.

 

Anyway. Mace wouldn't have walked away. According to George Lucas Sidious legitimately lost the lightsaber duel. Mace bested him in saber combat but factor in this. Mace occasionally was able to tie Yoda when it came to sparring. Vaapad is much better when used against dark side practitioners. According to shatterpoint Mace comes dangerously close to the dark side when using Vaapad so he's always held back.

 

In the novelization. Mace didn't. For once he put everything he had into Vaapad. He let out his aggression more so than ever before and embraced it entirely. In that one moment Mace was better than he's ever been. No longer afraid of falling to the dark side. So it's no knock to claim Sidious lost that duel but the novel does state this as well. Sidious then resorts to using force lightning. Mace blocks it and begins deflecting the lightning back to Sidious.

 

We see this in the movies. What we don't see is Mace's thoughts. Mace was pushing the lightsaber towards Sidious and then.. he was about to lose his grip. He couldn't hold onto his saber anymore. Just as he was about to lose it. Sidious suddenly stops and claims he's weak and helpless. Ergo.. Sidious lost in saber skill but Mace was about to die to Sidious mastery of the force.

 

Again, Sidious in his younger clone body was still far far faaar more powerful than he was in his older body. In his younger body. Chances are Mace wouldn't have even won the saber duel and even if he did.. it wouldn't matter.

 

Now back to the novelization. Yoda realizes no burn of the force nor saber could defeat Sidious. This realization is true. We learn post return of the Jedi that Sidious returned in a new body. If Yoda did somehow manage to cut Sidious down.. what then? He'd simply switch to a more powerful body and obliterate him anyway. He'd be even harder to take down.

 

My point is the only argument you're using is he lost to Mace who was the best duelist in Jedi history and even then Sidious reborn would destroy him. The only one who could take on Sidious reborn is Luke Skywalker and Luke Skywalker is much stronger than Revan. Even so. Luke could not kill Sidious. Sidious was defeated by another Jedi Knight. A crippled Jedi in a robotic body (not Vader.) Sidious went to transfer his essence to Leia's baby. The Jedi stepped in the way so Sidious entered his body. The spirits of some of the greatest Jedi, along with his spirit, worked together to force Sidious to become one with the force.

 

That's what it took to defeat Sidious.

 

There's no way the emperor can defeat Sidious. His mastery of the force is nowhere near Sidious. He couldn't destroy planets on a whim. He didn't master every dark side power. Even Luke himself couldn't defeat Sidious. It took the entire rebel alliance to bring him down and he kept getting stronger and stronger. Sidious mind controlled an entire planet (byss) he had the entire inhabitants living in a dream state as he fed off of them. Sidious was almost a God.

 

Even Caedus would lose to Sidious.

Edited January 27, 2012 by Rhyltran

[Jurakan]

If master Yoda had to wait until the end to figure that is also a vulnerability as well. If you notice in the movies the Sith are always the better prepared and when the Jedi win combats is by a very small margin (Obi Wan vs Darth Maul or Vader). The Jedi are constantly being outsmarted in almost every way. Even with their mind tricks they can never get anyone to reveal Sidius plan until it's too late. Edited January 27, 2012 by Jurakan

[Rhyltran]

If master Yoda had to wait until the end to figure that is also a vulnerability as well. If you notice in the movies the Sith are always the better prepared and when the Jedi win combats is by a very small margin (Obi Wan vs Darth Maul or Vader). The Jedi are constantly being outsmarted in almost every way. Even with their mind tricks they can never get anyone to reveal Sidius plan until it's too late.

 

Well, to be fair that's because of the rule of two. The Sith had the advantage due to the Jedi thinking they died out. The Sith plotted for 1000 years on how to overthrow the republic and the Jedi. This is another reason why Sidious is so powerful. He blocked out the Jedi's ability to perceive the force. The Jedi's use of the force was diminishing because the dark side was blotting out everything.

 

Near the end of his duel with Sidious. When they reached the senate chambers. Yoda broke through the darkness. He foresaw that Sidious could not be beaten by either a Lightsaber or the use of the force and that he had already won. He needed to buy time to escape so he could prepare against the Sith.

[Jurakan]

Well, to be fair that's because of the rule of two. The Sith had the advantage due to the Jedi thinking they died out. The Sith plotted for 1000 years on how to overthrow the republic and the Jedi. This is another reason why Sidious is so powerful. He blocked out the Jedi's ability to perceive the force. The Jedi's use of the force was diminishing because the dark side was blotting out everything.

 

Near the end of his duel with Sidious. When they reached the senate chambers. Yoda broke through the darkness. He foresaw that Sidious could not be beaten by either a Lightsaber or the use of the force and that he had already won. He needed to buy time to escape so he could prepare against the Sith.

 

good point!

[Jussk_Verden]

to be honest, I cant stand Sidious. All his manipulating and decieving and getting others to do his dirty work just pisses me off.

 

As for Revan, he wasnt as powerful as Vivate probably because he didnt try to. Sith competely devote thier time to learn new powers, new rituals, constantly trying to grow stronger. Revan was sitting at home enjoying time with his wife for five years... He probably could have been more powerful if he TRIED to be

[Jurakan]

to be honest, i cant stand sidious. All his manipulating and decieving and getting others to do his dirty work just pisses me off.

 

As for revan, he wasnt as powerful as vivate probably because he didnt try to. Sith competely devote thier time to learn new powers, new rituals, constantly trying to grow stronger. Revan was sitting at home enjoying time with his wife for five years... He probably could have been more powerful if he tried to be

 

qft!

[Castiel]

You really do sound like you'd love to marry Sidious... Ick.

[Zantul]

Vitiate doesnt use a saber to kill..

 

He is pure sorceror...

 

He would use exar-kun as his cup holder.

 

Vitiate is no longer one man. He is a legion of Sith in one body.

Edited January 28, 2012 by Zantul

[Meadore]

Reading about Sidious just makes me happy I never read Forceball Z.

Such ridicilous powers. I already thought it was insane how my Sith Warrior was bulldozing over dark council members but this..

 

Anyways, on topic I think Lord Vitiate has a rather advantage with being the apprentice of Marka Ragnos and living for such a long time which gives time to improve a lot.

[undeadsithdread]

Reading about Sidious just makes me happy I never read Forceball Z.

Such ridicilous powers. I already thought it was insane how my Sith Warrior was bulldozing over dark council members but this..

 

Anyways, on topic I think Lord Vitiate has a rather advantage with being the apprentice of Marka Ragnos and living for such a long time which gives time to improve a lot.

 

really TOR era IS ALL ABOUT FORCEBALL Z

 

lol i conquered an entire planet WHEN I WAS 10!

 

lol i fallen to dark side and redeemed to light now i can use light side and dark side powers!

 

i am bodless ghost who can eat planets!

 

i can never die ever!

Edited January 28, 2012 by undeadsithdread

[LordMaximum]

so are we talking about Exar V Vitiate Revan V Sidious or Sidious V Exar or Sidious V Vitiate lol

[Rayla_Felana]

In all seriousness, I don't think Vitiate even stands a chance, Exar Kun toyed with the NJO academy and Grand Master Luke Skywalker, whereas Vitiate struggled with Revan and then could've been killed by Meetra Surik.

 

Exar Kun is far more powerful than either of them are, he was one of the finest duellists ever, his sorcery and immense force power are easily a match for Vitiate's, Vitiate wasn't even a combatant, he was a scholar, and as far as his immortality goes, he needed the power of two hundred other Sith Lords to even pull it off, Exar Kun simply ate his Massassi Warriors and ascended to a Sith spirit, far more impressive than Vitiate.

 

The entire Jedi Order couldn't actually defeat Exar Kun, they could only keep him from leaving Yavin IV, so turn the clock over 4,000 years later, he beat the hell out of the NJO, if they were all so afraid of Vitiate, they'd be lay in a fetal position at the sight of Kun.

 

Very easily Exar Kun.

Edited January 28, 2012 by Rayla_Felana

[Fyurii]

 

Not quite.

Whilst he was able to separate Luke's soul from his body, the combined strength of the rest of the students at the academy were able to banish Kun's spirit.

Beaten by students, not fully trained Jedi, of an order that had only just begun to rebuild.

[BrandonSM]

Not quite.

Whilst he was able to separate Luke's soul from his body, the combined strength of the rest of the students at the academy were able to banish Kun's spirit.

Beaten by students, not fully trained Jedi, of an order that had only just begun to rebuild.

 

I thought NJO had the best Jedi or something like that.

[Gantoris_Aym]

I didn't mention that my pick is Vitiate

 

 

But Jedi Academy Exar Kun would come back from the dead and maul the living heck out of him. He'd have to plan ahead and call Ghost Busters.

[BlackLotus]

Exar Kun wins hand down... in the Holo recording of Gnosh Dural the empreror has Exar Kun tomb sealed because he saw Exar Kun as a treath(sp?) to his power, that alone should tell you how powerfull Exar Kun was.

[Makoto_Shishio]

to be honest, I cant stand Sidious. All his manipulating and decieving and getting others to do his dirty work just pisses me off.

 

As for Revan, he wasnt as powerful as Vivate probably because he didnt try to. Sith competely devote thier time to learn new powers, new rituals, constantly trying to grow stronger. Revan was sitting at home enjoying time with his wife for five years... He probably could have been more powerful if he TRIED to be

 

Prove it. All the excuses that revanites come up with as to why he isn't the most powerful character is seriously hilarious and mind boggling. Revan went all out on the emperor and still got his *** kicked, if you're going to face the most dangerous foe to the galaxy that time, why the hell wouldn't ou be at your best?

 

 

Thats like walking into a boxing match and if you lose, you lose $250 000 and you go in "not in your best condition" because you didn't want to and got the hell beaten out of you.

[Kaskava]

..... Some serious Sidious fanboys here...

 

Anyhoo, When Tenebrae was 10 years old, he stripped his father, SITH LORD Dramath of his powers, and tortured him to death :

 

"Even though he was only ten years old, he stripped his father of his power and his sanity before killing him, with Lord Dramath's last moments weeping in terror, looking up into his son's black eyes."

 

I'd like to see Sidious that strong as a mere kid.

 

"When he was thirteen, he came before Marka Ragnos, the Dark Lord of the Sith and the ruler of the Sith Council and Sith Empire. Lord Ragnos was impressed by the youth's power and ambition."

 

Imagine that. Marka Ragnos would've SMOKED Sidious if he came before him seeking power.

But a 10 year old was granted the title "Lord". Hmm.

 

Tenebrae also killed hundreds of powerful Sith Lords who came to Medriaas to claim his father's vacant throne, before he crushed hundreds of other Sith Lords' wills and made them his puppets.

 

He also decimated the FORCE and all in it on Medriaas.... He removed the force, much like Nihilus could, another one who'd utterly DECIMATE your precious Sidious.

He was over 1300 years old, a longer rule of the Sith hasn't been seen. Sidious ruled for, what, 30 ? I rest my case.

 

And also, you say Revan didn't master both sides of the force? Hahah. Actually, he DID. He was more "the chosen one" than Vader ever was.

Had Malak not betrayed him, Revan would have annihilated the Old Republic, and made his own empire. Read up.

 

Your points are all fine and dandy, and your opinion is noted. But here's the thing: George Lucas says Sidious is the most powerful Sith ever. Therefore, Sidious is the most powerful Sith ever.

 

And no, we don't know what would have happened if Sidious had been in Vitiate's shoes. Nor do we really know what would have happened if the guy who was destined to bring balance to the Force hadn't thrown Sidious down a giant shaft.

 

What we do know is this: Luke>Vader (possibly post and pre-cyborg)<Sidious>EVERY OTHER SITH EVER. And all because Lucas says so, and there's nothing anyone can do about it if they want their stuff to be considered cannon.

[Kaskava]

Exar Kun wins hand down... in the Holo recording of Gnosh Dural the empreror has Exar Kun tomb sealed because he saw Exar Kun as a treath(sp?) to his power, that alone should tell you how powerfull Exar Kun was.

 

If I were planning the largest, most well thought out, invasion, ever, I wouldn't want any lose ends hanging around either. Real-world Paranormal investigators go out of their way to find ghosts. Sith go out of their way to avoid them, unless they want something from them.

[Kaskava]

In all seriousness, I don't think Vitiate even stands a chance, Exar Kun toyed with the NJO academy and Grand Master Luke Skywalker, whereas Vitiate struggled with Revan and then could've been killed by Meetra Surik.

 

Exar Kun is far more powerful than either of them are, he was one of the finest duellists ever, his sorcery and immense force power are easily a match for Vitiate's, Vitiate wasn't even a combatant, he was a scholar, and as far as his immortality goes, he needed the power of two hundred other Sith Lords to even pull it off, Exar Kun simply ate his Massassi Warriors and ascended to a Sith spirit, far more impressive than Vitiate.

 

The entire Jedi Order couldn't actually defeat Exar Kun, they could only keep him from leaving Yavin IV, so turn the clock over 4,000 years later, he beat the hell out of the NJO, if they were all so afraid of Vitiate, they'd be lay in a fetal position at the sight of Kun.

 

Very easily Exar Kun.

 

And the most powerful Sith ever died the first time by getting thrown down a shaft by a walking Light Brite. Sometimes power=squat.

[Rayla_Felana]

Not quite.

Whilst he was able to separate Luke's soul from his body, the combined strength of the rest of the students at the academy were able to banish Kun's spirit.

Beaten by students, not fully trained Jedi, of an order that had only just begun to rebuild.

 

The New Jedi Order were training some of the best Jedi we've seen at the academy, and please note, that was just a Wall of Light, it was his old master's spirit, Odan-Urr that banished him.

 

He almost destroyed the academy, was mind controlling Almost everything around him, disintegrating students, etc... He was only just defeated.

[Rayla_Felana]

And the most powerful Sith ever died the first time by getting thrown down a shaft by a walking Light Brite. Sometimes power=squat.

 

He was caught off gaurd, which is no surprise, he truly believed Vader to be his pet, even then, when Vader picked him up, Sidious blasted him with his most powerful lightning, which for anyone else, would've turned them to dust, but Vader was very hard to kill, even for Sidious.

 

Oh and let's not forget the fact that Sidious was just on the wrong side of a fulfilling prophecy.

Edited January 29, 2012 by Rayla_Felana