ChaoslegionX Posted January 25, 2012 Author Share Posted January 25, 2012 ok. wow made pve progression about gear, with tiered pve inflating stats. this lead to pve gear being overpowered in pvp (and incidently trivialising all but the current tier of raid pve content) the correct solution here would have been to add a raid specific stat modifier on gear so that the successive levels of raid gear didnt inflate stats across the board but did make a difference in raids instead of trivialising all other content by inflating the stats so much. instead they just added a pvp stat because that means a second type of timesink progression based on gear grind can be added to the game, and while this never has or will be a good gameplay decision it is a good cash cow decision because a lot of you people only play for a carrot on a stick. so, expertise is here because it allows the pvp game to be made into a separate gear grind, nothing more. having the content specific stat on riad gear would give raiders the type of progression they like and allow for much better and immersive dynamic pvp systems than a "everyone wins if you bang your head against it for long enough" compulsory (because the stats make a significant difference) gear grind. Valid point but you just my argument even easier now second point its a cash grab keeps you in the game longer. Either way you want to look at its in the game so pve players cant face roll people. The title wasent here what they should have done instead of expertise it was why expertise in the game and i gave you the correct answer as to why. I dont care what they could have done diffrent or changed. I answered the question that alot of people asked..... WHY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kryptorchid Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Nope, he's correct. Resilience was originally due to raiders whining that pvpers could get easy gear that they could go into raids with and skip progression... but, if they simply made pvp gear worse than pve gear, then raiders would dominate pvp. PvPers were fine with raid gear and pvp gear being the same- but raiders hated the very thought of it- so, the stat was made to make pvp gear not good for pve, and pve gear not good for pvp- though, in WoW, pve gear could still hit as hard- actually, harder, than pvp gear- the only actual difference was that you survived much longer in pvp gear. Here, pvp gear hits harder, takes less damage, and also heals more (though, that only starts to counterbalance the rather unnecessary trauma mechanic. Actually, his premise of "a PvP stat is needed to keep Raiders from owning PvPers with better gear" is logically false. See my counter-point just one page ago: What if, instead of making a PvP stat, I made a PvE stat to put on gear? In my theoretical game, PvP gear would have identical stats to PvE gear, but the PvE would have this additional stat that only helps in PvE. So gear would look like this: PvP Helm: +100 Endurance +100 Aim +50 Crit +25 Surge PvE Helm: +100 Endurance +100 Aim +50 Crit +25 Surge +100 *new Expertise* increases damage, healing done, healing received, and defense ratings while in an Operation or Flashpoint. The next tier would look like this: PvP T2 Helm: w/new graphic! +100 Endurance +100 Aim +50 Crit +25 Surge PvE T2 Helm: w/new graphic! +100 Endurance +100 Aim +50 Crit +25 Surge +200 *new Expertise* So this itemization system makes PvE gear continually increase in power in PvE ONLY, and is identical to PvP gear when used in PvP. So I have created a system that makes you assumption of "a PvP stat is required to keep Raiders from owning PvPers" as a false accusation. Logically, this means you are wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dalnar Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 You answered WHY, but the right question was "Is it really needed?" No it isn't..it is a crutch for devs and carrot on stick for players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roak Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) Valid point but you just my argument even easier now second point its a cash grab keeps you in the game longer. Either way you want to look at its in the game so pve players cant face roll people. The title wasent here what they should have done instead of expertise it was why expertise in the game and i gave you the correct answer as to why. I dont care what they could have done diffrent or changed. I answered the question that alot of people asked..... WHY doesn't keep me in the game longer, I've quit after a month. I played ultima and swg for a combined 5 years mainly pvping and they had no pvp stat or enforced gear grinds. They had actual pvp mechanics that promoted world pvp. Edited January 25, 2012 by Roak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChaoslegionX Posted January 25, 2012 Author Share Posted January 25, 2012 You answered WHY, but the right question was "Is it really needed?" No it isn't..it is a crutch for devs and carrot on stick for players. OK but ive seen a million threads on the forums asking WHY is it in the game WHY is it needed and i gave them the answer in this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fungihoujo Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) What if, instead of making a PvP stat, I made a PvE stat to put on gear? In my theoretical game, PvP gear would have identical stats to PvE gear, but the PvE would have this additional stat that only helps in PvE. So gear would look like this: PvP Helm: +100 Endurance +100 Aim +50 Crit +25 Surge PvE Helm: +100 Endurance +100 Aim +50 Crit +25 Surge +100 *new Expertise* increases damage, healing done, healing received, and defense ratings while in an Operation or Flashpoint. The next tier would look like this: PvP T2 Helm: w/new graphic! +100 Endurance +100 Aim +50 Crit +25 Surge PvE T2 Helm: w/new graphic! +100 Endurance +100 Aim +50 Crit +25 Surge +200 *new Expertise* So this itemization system makes PvE gear continually increase in power in PvE ONLY, and is identical to PvP gear when used in PvP. So I have created a system that makes you assumption of "a PvP stat is required to keep Raiders from owning PvPers" as a false accusation. Logically, this means you are wrong. Except, part of itemization goes to 'expertise', so your pve t2 helm would actually be. +80 end +100 Aim +25 accuracy +70 raid expertise Also, your system has been done- it's called Warhammer Online, look up Wards and see the worst gear system ever made. Edited January 25, 2012 by fungihoujo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kesrik Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Expertise prevents artificial stat inflation from adding an extra stat. Expertise essentially cancels itself out when two equally geared players fight each other. What Bioware created is a PvP only stat that has absolutely no impact on PvP, yet still prevents PvE gear from being used in PvP (to a certain extent, since Expertise has DR). The argument that Expertise is a barrier to new players has no merit. General PvP experience and skill are even bigger barriers. Gearing in PvP is sufficiently fast enough that new players won't feel that the gear gap is insurmountable (2-3 weeks for full champion gear). Also, keep in mind that the other team will also have undergeared players, so it does balance out. PvP is never "fair." Even if everyone had the exact same gear, people would still whine about how the other team always has more OP classes, and how the other team always gets more skilled players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kryptorchid Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Except, part of itemization goes to 'expertise', so your pve t2 helm would actually be. No. I am a designer, so I design a system how I want to. I am not going to use an itemization stat budget. My example, still holds true to showing "why" a PvP stat is not needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viikuna Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 In my theoretical game, PvP gear would have identical stats to PvE gear, but the PvE would have this additional stat that only helps in PvE. So gear would look like this: So people going heavy on PvE side of the game, could jump on to PvP side of the game and lose nothing. While PvP player will lack the expertise? Against current system of: PvP player starts PvE: you lose dps/hps and got wasted endurance (PvE gear already got what is needed) PvE player starts PvP: you lose dps/hps and survive less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDutch Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 What Bioware created is a PvP only stat that has absolutely no impact on PvP, yet still prevents PvE gear from being used in PvP (to a certain extent, since Expertise has DR). If that's the goal then what is the point of this trivial 2-3 week gap you're talking about? Why wouldn't they just cap stats in WZ? Some people are more honest about simply liking the concept of reaming newer players for a few weeks, despite it's impact on the size of the community *cough-RIFT-cough* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lerdoc Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 So then everyone would use PvP gear since you'd be able to survive more often. And then enrage hits and everyone is wiped out because DPS was too low its already happening. But the more you PvE the faster you can get it done. And someone in raid always get something out of it, so it makes it easier to repeat and progress. Effort is to make the raid happen, to coordinate people and successfully finish it. While in pvp, you just need time to idle/zerg and luck with items from bag. Doe snot matter that you clear content faster. It just means you will have more time to do nothing, because ops content where the real gear comes from resets once a week. And no, not everyone in raid gets something out of it, you might be lucky to get a single item, you might get a whole set, you might get nothing for weeks. Thats how PVE works. Only guaranteed thing is commendations, but guess what? Just like with PVP! Only you need to put more effort then AFKing whole night on warzones as you've said. So to sum up: PVE gear=time+luck+effort PVP gear=time+luck regardless of effort as you can be biggest noob on the planet and still be in full BM just because you have no social life at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vindianajones Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) Its plain short and simple people i will answer this quesion so people can stop asking it ..... Expertise is must and it is needed it is to stop people who raid from dominating the pvp side of the game its not hard to understand this.. If they just copied the stats from pve to the pvp gear then it would ruin pve so they make the stats a little lower then pve and they add the expertise so people who raid dont face roll you. There now you have it stop asking why its in the game ..... You are correct. This is why it's in the game. That doesn't mean that it's the right way to do things. The only reason this is the correct answer is because PvE'ers have some sort of complex that makes them feel entitled to better gear than PvP'ers. There is absolutely nothing stopping Bioware or any other developer from simply saying "Well, here's your PvP gear and PvE gear, and they have roughly the same stats". No expertise needed. At all. Make the entire game balanced and accessible to PvE and PvP focused players. Now, when you add new raids and PvE items that are better, add new sets of PvP gear to be earned to match it. If the risk/time/reward balance is correct, everyone (PvE and PvP) should be able to compete evenly in both arenas regardless of the avenue they chose to get their gear. This entire issue comes from WoW-type PvE players who raid non-stop and have entitlement issues. They seem to think that they deserve significantly better gear because of their time sink. It was put into WoW by necessity (resilience) because the PvE gear was so good they were dominating PvP. It didn't have to be done this way. They could have just made the PvP gear better, but then the PvE'ers whine and cry that all their time following prompts and circle jerking is wasted. Since WoW did it, it must be the best way, right? Wrong. It should have been done my way. Yes, I'm going to be that arrogant. Edited January 25, 2012 by vindianajones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emeraldw Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 I really don't get the debate. Anyone who played Vanilla WoW or Warhammer online should know that PvE and PvP gear being separated is for the best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldManRelic Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) The solution here is the same one (pretty much) that DAOC used for PvP progression. Put hard caps into place on stats -- all stats -- in PvP areas. Ilum and the WZs and any additional PvP areas they add later. PvEers can grind to their heart's content, but it will not give the ma stat edge in PvP. PvP progression would be based on abilities you get through the otherwise useless Valor rank we've all been building up. Why Bioware would ignore what was basically a perfect system is beyond me. Hard stat caps are the key. PvE isn't stifled at all, it doesn't affect PvP, and dedicated hardcore PvPers get to advance via abilities rather than via gear. Also, the gear set bonuses would be extremely useful in differntianting the PvE and PvP sets. Edited January 25, 2012 by OldManRelic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kryptorchid Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 So people going heavy on PvE side of the game, could jump on to PvP side of the game and lose nothing. While PvP player will lack the expertise? Against current system of: PvP player starts PvE: you lose dps/hps and got wasted endurance (PvE gear already got what is needed) PvE player starts PvP: you lose dps/hps and survive less. And to this I say "working as intended." You need to realize a few things: 1. PvP IS NOT PvE -- they have different needs to be successful. 2. PvP needs PLAYERS and BALANCE to be successful. I see no problem allowing someone that has done nothing but Raids to be able to hop into PvP matches and not be at a gear disadvantage. I also see nothing wrong with a fresh 50 hopping into PvP and not being at a gear disadvantage. This promotes participation and doesn't introduce an unneeded variable that only imbalances PvP more. 3. PvE needs PROGRESSION to be successful. Raiders say themselves that they don't want people to be able to gear up and participate in the hardest raids by ignoring previous content and just PvPing for gear. They also imply they won't Raid unless they are rewarded for it, usually by getting more powerful. By making it so PvP gear is inferior to PvE gear in Raids, you increase the longevity of Raid content since it forces players that want to experience the hardest Raids to progress from the first, to the second, to the third, etc. Raids. This is good because it provides gear progression for raiding, that doesn't imbalance PvP, and it prolongs the use of older raid content. Win, win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forkrul Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Except, part of itemization goes to 'expertise', so your pve t2 helm would actually be. +80 end +100 Aim +25 accuracy +70 raid expertise Also, your system has been done- it's called Warhammer Online, look up Wards and see the worst gear system ever made. How was the Ward system bad? It was brilliant. It made pvp and pve gear equivalent within a tier. It allowed you to use the gear YOU wanted for the set bonuses it had instead of forcing you to wear gear that didn't fit your playstyle to do content. And it allowed you to progress even if you could never get the item to drop by having other options than pure gear to progress. The only bad part I can see to it is that the higher tiers didn't have pve equivalents until LotD was released, but Sovereign (and later DF and WF) was always best. It was a system that encouraged you to do BOTH pvp and pve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldManRelic Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) And to this I say "working as intended." You need to realize a few things: 1. PvP IS NOT PvE -- they have different needs to be successful. 2. PvP needs PLAYERS and BALANCE to be successful. I see no problem allowing someone that has done nothing but Raids to be able to hop into PvP matches and not be at a gear disadvantage. I also see nothing wrong with a fresh 50 hopping into PvP and not being at a gear disadvantage. This promotes participation and doesn't introduce an unneeded variable that only imbalances PvP more. 3. PvE needs PROGRESSION to be successful. Raiders say themselves that they don't want people to be able to gear up and participate in the hardest raids by ignoring previous content and just PvPing for gear. They also imply they won't Raid unless they are rewarded for it, usually by getting more powerful. By making it so PvP gear is inferior to PvE gear in Raids, you increase the longevity of Raid content since it forces players that want to experience the hardest Raids to progress from the first, to the second, to the third, etc. Raids. This is good because it provides gear progression for raiding, that doesn't imbalance PvP, and it prolongs the use of older raid content. Win, win. You are conveniently forgetting the fact that new 50's going to PvP are essentially instagibbed by well-geared 50's in the high-end gear. PvE doesn't suffer that issue -- no one is forcing you to go to Tier 3 or Tier 4 content in blues and greens you got at level 49. The current system is doing /exactly/ that for PvP. Rift ha the same issue, for the same reasons, it it only got worse over time. Expertise kills PvP, period. Edited January 25, 2012 by OldManRelic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDutch Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) Now, when you add new raids and PvE items that are better, add new sets of PvP gear to be earned to match it. If the risk/time/reward balance is correct, everyone (PvE and PvP) should be able to compete evenly in both arenas regardless of the avenue they chose to get their gear. This entire issue comes from WoW-type PvE players who raid non-stop and have entitlement issues. They seem to think that they deserve significantly better gear because of their time sink. Since WoW did it, it must be the best way, right? Wrong. It should have been done my way. Yes, I'm going to be that arrogant. Just a side-note that doesn't really agree/disagree with this approach... SWTOR cannot support a match making system with that many levels of gear if they don't have a sufficient pool of players to pull from. Lower population servers, faction imbalance with no arena, and no cross-server battlegroups... these are all critical parts of WoW's recycling gear treadmill. If SWTOR takes the same gear inflation approach without the rest then I'm pretty sure we're going to end up with more empty WZ like Rift. Edited January 25, 2012 by BDutch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chton Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 No skill involved, just a lot of time and luck with random rolls. That's what's pvp IS all about. Fixed it for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldManRelic Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 How was the Ward system bad? It was brilliant. It made pvp and pve gear equivalent within a tier. It allowed you to use the gear YOU wanted for the set bonuses it had instead of forcing you to wear gear that didn't fit your playstyle to do content. And it allowed you to progress even if you could never get the item to drop by having other options than pure gear to progress. The only bad part I can see to it is that the higher tiers didn't have pve equivalents until LotD was released, but Sovereign (and later DF and WF) was always best. It was a system that encouraged you to do BOTH pvp and pve. Up until they raised the RR cap to 100, the WAR gear system was, hands down, the best one I've ever experienced. Caveat: in a non stat-capped game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torcer Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Its plain short and simple people i will answer this quesion so people can stop asking it ..... Expertise is must and it is needed it is to stop people who raid from dominating the pvp side of the game its not hard to understand this.. If they just copied the stats from pve to the pvp gear then it would ruin pve so they make the stats a little lower then pve and they add the expertise so people who raid dont face roll you. There now you have it stop asking why its in the game ..... You're correct, but it still does not answer why there isn't some way to obtain Expertise on the non Epic PvP Gear. If there was a purchasable level 50 set with a lower amount of expertise then the three tiers, it would offset some of the ROFLStomping once you hit 50. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldManRelic Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Fixed it for you. Because learning to beat a script is hard, amirite? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quelthela Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 They could have made PVP armor really good and just made it so it's only usable in PVP. . Ok. they could make good PVE gear only usable in PVE! How you feel now? Ps: per definition the gear with expertise is only for pvp...... nobd will take you on raid. I can remember only in WOW Grant Marshalls PVP gear good for all purposes but again it was insane to acquired it. ps: /respect to GMs..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gwal Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Ok. they could make good PVE gear only usable in PVE! How you feel now? Ps: per definition the gear with expertise is only for pvp...... nobd will take you on raid. I can remember only in WOW Grant Marshalls PVP gear good for all purposes but again it was insane to acquired it. ps: /respect to GMs..... Lol you think healers are passing up a 10% heal boost in raids to wear PvE armour? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quelthela Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 doesn't keep me in the game longer, I've quit after a month. I played ultima and swg for a combined 5 years mainly pvping and they had no pvp stat or enforced gear grinds. They had actual pvp mechanics that promoted world pvp. Then you are strategy PVP player, no MMO PVP player... (MMO has development of gear...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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