IA Operative Issues - A compilation of issues with all three talent trees.

[Amiable]

Hi All,

 

Based on discussions in other threads I thought it may be a good idea to compile IA issues into a single thread that we could have a single place to discuss current and post-patch operative issues.

 

Disclaimer: I am a healing operative and have been so since launch, I have participated in end-game PvE and PvP but I am certainly not hardcore. Nor do I consider myself a particularly awesome player, I'm sure there are many folks who are reading this who are better than me and will continue to be awesome Operative players no matter what.

 

I think overall the problem with Operative is that now that we are losing our burst PvP ability, there really is very little purpose to play an Operative over any other character. While we do have stealth we suffer from a crippling lack of mobility in PvP and in PvE our healing and DPS is subpar compared to other classes. I do not think that Bioware has really thought out our talent trees very well and they need to do a bit of re-designing.

 

Medicine

 

1. Certain healing talents are buggy and do not work:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=220909 (Update: Devs are apparently aware of the medical therapy issue and are working on it, huzzah!)

 

2. Our group AOE heal (and the mercs) is far inferior JC/SI's, (although mercs/troopers have a pretty good case for them being bad as well). It costs to much, heals for too little over too long a period of time and is difficult to use except in very specific circumstances.

 

3. We lack mobility and viable escape mechanisms in PvP. Eg: our vanish makes us entirely useless for 10 seconds, it makes more sense to just die and run back, while we do have "on the move heals" in the form of hots and SP, they are overall pretty weak, requiring us to sacrifice mobility and hardcast if we want to put out decent healing numbers. We have no knockback or sprint to help escape.

 

4. Some End game guilds are taking JC's/SI's over other healer's, especially IA's

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showt...=219491&page=5

 

5. Our hot's and diagnostic scan are overall very weak. Hot's are energy intensive for relatively mediocre healing over a long time frame unless kept rolling, which is very difficult to do with the current UI interface.

 

6. All our end game gear is itemized for aclarity, but really only have one heal ability where it is useful and even that is questionable due to our energy mechanic.

 

7. The Operative Healing tree is devoid of the synergy present in the other healers;

see Supercharged Gas and Force Bending as examples. Our heals do not generate any secondary benefits, only straight healing(other than TA generation from Kolto probe); see Proactive Armor and Resurgence talent. Nor is our healing output significantly stronger to balance their absence.

 

8. The damage debuff talent (Sedatives) for Sleep Dart causes enemies to aggro and chase you down after the effect wears off irrespective of stealth This makes the sleep dart ineffective for stealthing rapidly through an area and in most situations not as good for PvE as the untalented ability.

 

9. Evasive Imperative Talent (in the Medicine tree) does not always grant the listed speed bonus on activation.

 

Concealment

 

I think I can't really add anything that terrific posters have already described to what will happen to the class post nerf, but I will try to sum up:

 

1. Nerf to acidic blade really harms PvE damage output for a spec that is already not that great in PvE.

 

2. The reduction to stun time for jarring strike makes the talent effectively useless because it confers effective stun immunity to the target. Update: Nerf also decreased rsolve generation, so this was a mixed blessing.

 

3. Lack of gap closers makes follow up attacking very difficult, especially considering almost every other class has access to speed buffs/slows and knockbacks.

 

4. Poor dps out of stealth makes the class very one-sided in PvP, if you don't get a kill out of stealth you are sub-par melee dps withe few mobility tools and poor survivability.

 

Lethality

 

Wow, where to begin. I feel like this tree was designed for snipers and not much thought was given to how this would synergize with operatives.

 

1. It is a ranged oriented spec that relies on TA generation to execute attacks, but has no mechanism to generate TA at range (other than speccing fairly high up the medicine tree at the expense of DPS).

 

2. Ranges are wonky. Some abilities are at 30, others at 10 and melee rang is required to prep long range attacks.

 

3. DPS in PvP is subpar compared to almost every other class. Difficult to tell if it is subpar for PvE due to lack of parsers.

 

4. Corrosive microbes talent has no effect - http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=1183715

 

 

I would like folks to add their perspectives in a constructive manner if possible. i think the IA community is pretty great so I imagine a lot of you will note things I missed.

 

And yes I am a terribad player who needs to LTP, we can get that out of the way up front.

 

Edit: added some excellent points made below.

Edited February 14, 2012 by Amiable
including new points.

[OklahomaSooner]

Excellent points, but it looks like Bioware is only really interested in catering to all the whiners and just nerfing Concealment into uselessness.

[Sprigum]

Excellent points, but it looks like Bioware is only really interested in catering to all the whiners and just nerfing Concealment into uselessness.

 

They're running a business.

 

If nerfing 5% makes the other 95% happy then that's what they'll do.

 

Sadly, the classes we were most powerful against, Sorcs/Sages and Commandos/Mercs are the very vast majority of the population right now.

[Vonkong]

I would be fine with the healing tree if they made Kolto Infusion an baseline instant cast ability.

 

concealment: I have played many stealth classes, and they always do just fine as long as they can stealth undetected and kill a damaged player.... that is just what the class/tree is designed for and the good players will continue to make it effective in doing just that....

 

Lethality needs a TA generator, plain and simple (preferably one that does not require cover because we are a ranged "stick and move" class)... maybe something like a Jugg stance which makes Rifle Shot, 50% of the time, generate TA, but does not allow us to generate TA from the other 2 trees while in this stance, thus we must commit to the ranged tree from combat situation to combat situation to make it effective.

[matthewcreech]

The Operative Healing tree is devoid of the synergy present in the other healers;

see Supercharged Gas and Force Bending as examples.

 

Our heals do not generate any secondary benefits, only straight healing;

see Proactive Armor and Resurgence talent

 

Nor is our healing output significantly stronger to balance their absence.

[Zerikin_Loukbel]

Good summary. The only point I would content is HoTs being efficient. Keeping kolto probe rolling on someone (provided you hit the 3s window between the last two ticks), is very efficient. Its just a pain because of the UI.

[Amiable]

 

concealment: I have played many stealth classes, and they always do just fine as long as they can stealth undetected and kill a damaged player.... that is just what the class/tree is designed for and the good players will continue to make it effective in doing just that....

 

 

I agree wholeheartedly with this, but my question is - if Operative burst is nerfed, what advantages do they bring to the table in PvP or PvE that the Sith Assassin does not already possess? This is especially relevant considering SA's have a better mobility and tankability.

[nodq]

I agree wholeheartedly with this, but my question is - if Operative burst is nerfed, what advantages do they bring to the table in PvP or PvE that the Sith Assassin does not already possess? This is especially relevant considering SA's have a better mobility and tankability.

 

More fun and better gameplay? I have both at lvl50 with pvp gear. And assassine is 2 button mashing, just boring. Ops are little bit more complex. One reason is you can off heal. TA managing is fun, too. What do assassine have? Taunt here and there, thats it. And stalth is useless for assassine, just gives you force regen for 6 sec. spike is useless.

Edited January 25, 2012 by nodq

[AtomicSquid]

Good summary. The only point I would content is HoTs being efficient. Keeping kolto probe rolling on someone (provided you hit the 3s window between the last two ticks), is very efficient. Its just a pain because of the UI.

 

Yes, the problem is the HoT is only worthwhile if your timing is perfect (and the ui makes this difficult to do for more than 1 person). Even then, in a raid situation with other healers, HoTs are often just overheal. Without Medical Engineering, would probably not even use Kolto Probes.

[MrContact]

Good summary. The only point I would content is HoTs being efficient. Keeping kolto probe rolling on someone (provided you hit the 3s window between the last two ticks), is very efficient. Its just a pain because of the UI.

 

The problem is that its only possible in situations where everything is under control. If something unexpected happens or in all pvp situations hards nearly impossible to keep the hots rollign with the same efficiency. Operative healers really lacks some tools for moments where the **** hits the fan and our hots are weak compared to the cost. We also have a useless ability (Kolto infusion).

[AxleStukov]

I played around with Lethality some the other day, for the most part this actually feels like a nice flowing rotation for PvE, but as mentioned in the OP it lacks a good way of generating TA. If Weakening Blast generated a stack of TA I feel it would really help this spec out.

[Amiable]

Double post -delete Edited January 25, 2012 by Amiable

[Arrys]

7. The Operative Healing tree is devoid of the synergy present in the other healers;

see Supercharged Gas and Force Bending as examples. Our heals do not generate any secondary benefits, only straight healing(other than TA generation from Kolto probe); see Proactive Armor and Resurgence talent. Nor is our healing output significantly stronger to balance their absence.

 

 

I'll add we spec 6 points to manage our energy resource alone with absolutely no other synergy. If you look at a merc the vent heat plus get derivative benefits in many many talents.

 

The two we spend for surg probe are also energy management but they have derivative benefit in an instant and free heal so won't complain about those 2 points.

 

#1 reason I'm now playing a powertech couldn't handle playing a sith healer and for now op heals show's promise but not enough.

[Daize]

great post tyvm

[Achmed]

not sure but some points seem wrong to me.

 

Hi All,

 

Medicine

3. We lack mobility and viable escape mechanisms in PvP. Eg: our vanish makes us entirely useless for 10 seconds,...

beside vanish i dont realy aggree here.

we got sever tendon, flash grenade, debialiate. thats quite alot.

and there also evasion (ok its basicly useless in PvP) and shield probe which buys u time.

Concealment

3. Lack of gap closers makes follow up attacking very difficult, especially considering almost every other class has access to speed buffs/slows and knockbacks.

sever tendon is pretty powerfull here especialy since it doesnt care about the resolve bar. could be more ok, but its not like other classes have 10 skills to choose from.

 

Lethality

 

2. Ranges are wonky. Some abilities are at 30, others at 10 and melee rang is required to prep long range attacks.

actualy its quite good the way it is (beside TA generation). beeing able to toss c. grenade from 30m makes it realy easy to catch up a target(30% snare). cant count how many lonly targets i got this way.

3. DPS in PvE and PvP is subpar compared to almost every other class.

how exactly do u know this without a combat log? i personaly have the feeling that we do quite alot damage with lethality as OP. the longer the fight, the more DPS it spits out.

at least its way more then concealment.

Edited January 26, 2012 by Achmed

[Amiable]

not sure but some points seem wrong to me.

 

 

beside vanish i dont realy aggree here.

we got sever tendon, flash grenade, debialiate. thats quite alot.

and there also evasion (ok its basicly useless in PvP) and shield probe which buys u time.

 

sever tendon is pretty powerfull here especialy since it doesnt care about the resolve bar. could be more ok, but its not like other classes have 10 skills to choose from.

 

actualy its quite good the way it is (beside TA generation). beeing able to toss c. grenade from 30m makes it realy easy to catch up a target(30% snare). cant count how many lonly targets i got this way.

 

how exactly do u know this without a combat log? i personaly have the feeling that we do quite alot damage with lethality as OP. the longer the fight, the more DPS it spits out.

at least its way more then concealment.

 

On the mobility issues, I am just relaying a lot of the comments on this board. Honestly though, SA's have all those abilities and a sprint.

 

Lethality damage is based on reports from warzone score board compilations, as that is the only metric data we have available, but I agree it is very hard to judge for PvE due to the lack of combat logs.

[matthewcreech]

Minor quibble:

The damage debuff talent for Sleep Dart causes enemies to aggro and chase you down after the effect wears off. These enemies are like heatseeking bloodhounds that don't care about stealth. This makes the sleep dart ineffective for stealthing rapidly through an area.

Only effective if you plan on using CC only to set up a fight.

 

Many players take this talent and come to the forum trying to figure out what is happening as there is no other indication in game that it will cause enemies to aggro.

[Daize]

Minor quibble:

The damage debuff talent for Sleep Dart causes enemies to aggro and chase you down after the effect wears off. These enemies are like heatseeking bloodhounds that don't care about stealth. This makes the sleep dart ineffective for stealthing rapidly through an area.

Only effective if you plan on using CC only to set up a fight.

 

Many players take this talent and come to the forum trying to figure out what is happening as there is no other indication in game that it will cause enemies to aggro.

 

The problem here is the player.

 

You should be using Sneak to get by mobs NOT sleep dart. Sleep dart is used as CC when you want to actually fight the mobs. Using it to sneak past when you have an ability called Sneak meant specifically for that is more than a bit silly. To then complain about it, well ...

[TimtTim]

Excellent points, but it looks like Bioware is only really interested in catering to all the whiners and just nerfing Concealment into uselessness.

 

Actualy the part about bioware catering the whiners is more or less confirmed in

http://www.swtor.com/media/trailers/coming-star-wars-old-republic

Watch from 1.45: "You are the people who decide what kind of changes we need to make to the game"

 

Seriously?!

 

With al the whiners on these forums i have no idea where the game will end up!

Edited January 26, 2012 by TimtTim

[Amiable]

Minor quibble:

The damage debuff talent for Sleep Dart causes enemies to aggro and chase you down after the effect wears off. These enemies are like heatseeking bloodhounds that don't care about stealth. This makes the sleep dart ineffective for stealthing rapidly through an area.

Only effective if you plan on using CC only to set up a fight.

 

Many players take this talent and come to the forum trying to figure out what is happening as there is no other indication in game that it will cause enemies to aggro.

 

I have not experienced this at all, I sleep dart mobs regularly, grab chests and walk away without them aggroing after they come out of sleep (though to be honest I usually ride away by then).

 

Edit: nm I just realized you were talking about it with the debuff talent. I will add to the original post.

Edited January 26, 2012 by Amiable

[matthewcreech]

The problem here is the player.

 

You should be using Sneak to get by mobs NOT sleep dart. Sleep dart is used as CC when you want to actually fight the mobs. Using it to sneak past when you have an ability called Sneak meant specifically for that is more than a bit silly. To then complain about it, well ...

 

My last sentence or so was what led me to post this. You might have noticed that every couple of days, there is a new thread on the main page asking about issues with sleep dart. Much like the Medical Therapy issue, if it is not mentioned it will not be addressed.

 

I encourage you to make a guide if you want to help teach people the proper way to play.

[fixit]

The problem here is the player.

 

You should be using Sneak to get by mobs NOT sleep dart. Sleep dart is used as CC when you want to actually fight the mobs. Using it to sneak past when you have an ability called Sneak meant specifically for that is more than a bit silly. To then complain about it, well ...

 

The problem is with that specific talent, if you don't talent sleep dart: you can chain dart mobs and sneak by, much like the assasin one which is the same thing. It's only when you talent sleep dart that this 'bug' starts to happen. It was annoying me to no end, I was wondering what was going on...then I respected sans that talent and viola! No problems.

 

Medical Therapy, the evasion talent, and the sleep dart one are all broken. Thats alot of bugs in one tree!

[KyoMamoru]

I'm starting to believe that Evasion is the weakest Tier Four talent in the game.

[sang]

I've healed EV 4/5 Nightmare - 5/5 Hard - 5/5 Normal, Karagga's Palace 5/5 Normal - 5/5 Hard, and I'm valor rank 66 in nearly full Battlemaster gear (missing belt, bracers, and offhand). While these are valid points, I cannot stress enough how important it is for healing operatives to make sure they have swapped in the correct enhancements (crit/surge/power) into their gear over the some of the Alacrity. (I find just enough alacrity to get K.Injection to ~1.8s to be enough.) This means you may have to swap in lower level enhancements, or farm enhancements from other gear. A lot of the Battle and Assault 24 Enhancements can be found in various Columi/Champion gear.

 

My biggest concerns with operative healing:

 

1) Talents - As previously mentioned, we have really important talents that do not work, or in RN's case, is extremely lacking for a 31pt talent when compared to Sorc/Sage healers. Simply put, our talents need an overhaul as the only class with comparably bad talent trees in my eyes are Marauders/Sentinels.

 

2) Lack of heals - For the most part, a PvE healing rotation will consist of only 5/6 skills: K.Injection, KP, SP, Stim, Scan, RN (extremely situational). Furthermore, we are severely lacking an "o-crap" heal. Good operatives should have TA up nearly all the time, but if that's not the case (or without a good crit from SP) you're out of luck. Overall, I could live with everything else such as our lack of a knockback, inability to shield someone, or other issues, but these two are the biggest for me.

 

Because of the aforementioned issues, I truly believe operative healing to be one of, if not, the most challenging class/specs to play in the game. In my opinion, no other class has a margin for error as small as healing operatives with such a limited range of options.

Edited January 26, 2012 by sang

[Crazyeyedturtle]

I've healed EV 4/5 Nightmare - 5/5 Hard - 5/5 Normal, Karagga's Palace 5/5 Normal - 5/5 Hard, and I'm valor rank 66 in nearly full Battlemaster gear (missing belt, bracers, and offhand). While these are valid points, I cannot stress enough how important it is for healing operatives to make sure they have swapped in the correct enhancements (crit/surge/power) into their gear over the some of the Alacrity. (I find just enough alacrity to get K.Injection to ~1.8s to be enough.) This means you may have to swap in lower level enhancements, or farm enhancements from other gear. A lot of the Battle and Assault 24 Enhancements can be found in various Columi/Champion gear.

 

My biggest concerns with operative healing:

 

1) Talents - As previously mentioned, we have really important talents that do not work, or in RN's case, is extremely lacking for a 31pt talent when compared to Sorc/Sage healers. Simply put, our talents need an overhaul as the only class with comparably bad talent trees in my eyes are Marauders/Sentinels.

 

2) Lack of heals - For the most part, a PvE healing rotation will consist of only 5/6 skills: K.Injection, KP, SP, Stim, Scan, RN (extremely situational). Furthermore, we are severely lacking an "o-crap" heal. Good operatives should have TA up nearly all the time, but if that's not the case (or without a good crit from SP) you're out of luck. Overall, I could live with everything else such as our lack of a knockback, inability to shield someone, or other issues, but these two are the biggest for me.

 

Because of the aforementioned issues, I truly believe operative healing to be one of, if not, the most challenging class/specs to play in the game. In my opinion, no other class has a margin for error as small as healing operatives with such a limited range of options.

 

You'd think they would have given us kolto injection for an emergency heal like the npc's have, 10s or so cd and you can only use it on one target every 30s...I think that would be nice to have instead of whatever that useless TA using cast time heal is that I don't even have on my bar..

 

Love the thread, explains all of my small frustrations I've come across and wish bioware would fix...but alas there are probably not enough of us for bioware to worry about it...we'll see though.