Ilum : Constructive criticisms and suggestions for Bioware

[Furyslayer]

FIX unbalanced servers....30 v 5 is not fun EVER. Either make it where people enter on a 1-1 ratio or give a percentage buff to the underdogs.

[PaddySucks]

I like the spirit behind the post, but the term zerging is used extremely liberally. You have to think about it logically, the reason why one side always outnumbers the other isn't just because there's a benefit in the size of your group, it's because there is a drastic population imbalance to begin with.

 

Regardless of how you split up the objectives, or penalize larger groups, there are still going to be 4a's vs 1b.

 

Constructive solutions need to offer up PVP mechanics that either subvert the effect of many against few, or don't rely on any form of numbers to accomplish.

 

The best suggestion I've seen so far, is having the armaments spawn randomly around the zone. It's better, but I'm still roaming in an area that is saturated with 2 or 3 times as many enemies as I have friends.

 

I do like the idea of a tug-of-war mechanic, with the bases being assaulted, it's doable if they have trash PvE spawns that take part in the assault with you, if they adjust the spawn to account for current imbalances then it's always a fair fight, and everybody can enjoy Ilum on a large scale.

 

Now that system has flaws, but atleast I think it's a good start, just needs a little love, a little tweaking..

[VallKillMore]

it is because they cant even leave their base because in front of it is zergfest

 

What about changing it so the Rep/Imp bases arent control points? Split the nothern/souther control points into two points and place them on the left and right side of the zone, so you get sort of an hourglass shape when looking at the map. Place to points far enogh away from the bases so you limit the need for camping the bases.

 

I dont see there being anyway to end zerging completely. Its just the affect when you have a group of people playing together, and if you think about it, thats how large scale battles will take place, when both factions are evenly matched.

[VallKillMore]

I do like the idea of a tug-of-war mechanic, with the bases being assaulted, it's doable if they have trash PvE spawns that take part in the assault with you, if they adjust the spawn to account for current imbalances then it's always a fair fight, and everybody can enjoy Ilum on a large scale.

 

That could work. The more of your own factions palyers you have the number of PvE spawn you have to back you up decrease. This way as more players come into the zone the sides would theoreticaly stay balaced. If you have 5 v1 you buff that out numbered faction with 4 PvE spawns... then as more palyers join you drop/raise the PvE spawn count, always keeping it even. Now of course it will still favor the actual players due to the ability to not be run by AI, but alease numbers wise it would even it out.

Edited January 24, 2012 by VallKillMore

[Axcys]

I like the spirit behind the post, but the term zerging is used extremely liberally. You have to think about it logically, the reason why one side always outnumbers the other isn't just because there's a benefit in the size of your group, it's because there is a drastic population imbalance to begin with.

 

Regardless of how you split up the objectives, or penalize larger groups, there are still going to be 4a's vs 1b.

 

Constructive solutions need to offer up PVP mechanics that either subvert the effect of many against few, or don't rely on any form of numbers to accomplish.

 

The best suggestion I've seen so far, is having the armaments spawn randomly around the zone. It's better, but I'm still roaming in an area that is saturated with 2 or 3 times as many enemies as I have friends.

 

I do like the idea of a tug-of-war mechanic, with the bases being assaulted, it's doable if they have trash PvE spawns that take part in the assault with you, if they adjust the spawn to account for current imbalances then it's always a fair fight, and everybody can enjoy Ilum on a large scale.

 

Now that system has flaws, but atleast I think it's a good start, just needs a little love, a little tweaking..

 

Unfortunately the best i can come up with for one faction completely overwhelming the other is an idea I based off someone endless earlier in the thread. That is a pop soft cap.

 

"3. Hard capping causes a huge line up especially at such a low amount of people. Doing something like a soft cap and keeping a 5-10 player threshold so each faction must be within a certain amount isn't a bad idea though as long as it has a baseline so the threshold doesn't go into effect until 15+. You don't want zone lockouts when one faction simply isn't there."

 

 

Zone caps blow though. Honestly if i was Republic I would be overjoyed at the thought of LOTS of thinly spread members of the other faction. More to kill. all singled out for endless duels. That is where the fun starts. However if the zone was totally overrun that would suck. It would take some testing on what the real threshold is for thinly spread players over the entire zone. Although I think that is well within their normal instance threshold so that may not be a problem at that point at all.

[art-media]

the nice base idea of ilum was i think to have many smaller battles (control points) decide the big battle ...

 

just an idea to make this would be that every control point is always attacked by waves of npc's getting more and more over time so at least a small group has to stay at every spot and it would take an organized faction to conquer all points at once and impossible to hold them too long

[Axcys]

That could work. The more of your own factions palyers you have the number of PvE spawn you have to back you up decrease. This way as more players come into the zone the sides would theoreticaly stay balaced. If you have 5 v1 you buff that out numbered faction with 4 PvE spawns... then as more palyers join you drop/raise the PvE spawn count, always keeping it even. Now of course it will still favor the actual players due to the ability to not be run by AI, but alease numbers wise it would even it out.

 

I am not totally against this idea. They would have to be decently strong mobs though. Even so that is something that should be avoided if another idea can be used. Otherwise you gets a pvpve situation going and if anyone remembers AV circa Vanilla wow nax days.... that was pretty dumb.

[Axcys]

the nice base idea of ilum was i think to have many smaller battles (control points) decide the big battle ...

 

just an idea to make this would be that every control point is always attacked by waves of npc's getting more and more over time so at least a small group has to stay at every spot and it would take an organized faction to conquer all points at once and impossible to hold them too long

 

 

 

The thing about that is it requires both sides to have a decent amount of people. Its by no means a bad idea it just cant happen while republic is so scarce. You have to try and work with the imbalance in mind.

[Axcys]

I would like to congratulate all of you on going 4 pages with out a single tear(save the guy talking about framerates but we wont count him). This is the kind of feedback bioware needs to make good changes to their game. No insults or complaining. Just ideas. Keep it going guys.

[art-media]

yeah probably you are right ... i am on a server where there are at least enough republics to fill one shard of ilum if it is fun

[PaddySucks]

Hmm, I agree having mobs to supplement the lacking side isn't preferable, just hard to work around the need for population balancing. I never played Vanilla WoW, though, so I could just be speaking out of ignorance.

[BuIIseye]

Just remove it till you can figure something out that works.

 

I warzoned my way to 55 Valor. There are guys 65+ who just sat there and gets 200 Valor per kill doing nothing, AFK the whole time.

[shewebacca]

Excellent suggestions!

 

1. I especially agree with the division of Valor in large groups. I agree that zerging is not fun for either side, and by dividing the valor, it prevents the "zerg" side with the superior numbers from progressing through valor ranks much faster than the overwhelmed side (the assumption being the zerg side is getting more kills and will hold the majority/all of Ilum.)

 

2. I would also like a system not unlike other games have done (from my own experience, WoW and LoTRO) where a persons Valor rank affects how much Valor an enemy receives for killing them. I think this is a natural progression of the idea of dividing up Valor as in those 1v1 situations, the "underdog" earns more Valor if they win vs. the better geared player.

 

3. Finally I would like the capture points to play a bigger role. I would love to see the implementation of certain areas that would have NPC bosses defending them that could be flipped by either side in addition to the normal points.

 

4. Something else to consider is how "announcements" are done in Ilum. What is the necessity of announcing a person is near a capture point (especially considering a player can avoid the announcement if done properly!). It would be more exciting/reasonable to announce attacks on certain points.

 

Example, a Republic player sneaks around to the Northern Point. He is not announced until he starts the channel for blowing up the Imperial vehicles.

 

This in conjunction with spreading out the armaments throughout Ilum will encourage quick reaction time by a faction to a certain point they control, along with greatly increasing the chance that there will be someone to respond to an attack.

 

5. In the current system, a person is discouraged from leaving Central (or in extreme cases the enemy base) because they must stop farming Valor and dailies to respond to an attack on a point. This could be remedied by adding some incentive for the daily or Valor to killing someone who was trying to take a point.

Off the top of my head, someone responsible for flipping a point would get "marked" for 5 minutes, awarding x2-3 Valor and counting 2-3 times for the daily for anyone who kills said person.

[Axcys]

Just remove it till you can figure something out that works.

 

I warzoned my way to 55 Valor. There are guys 65+ who just sat there and gets 200 Valor per kill doing nothing, AFK the whole time.

 

 

Nonconstructive extremism.

[Axcys]

Excellent suggestions!

 

1. I especially agree with the division of Valor in large groups. I agree that zerging is not fun for either side, and by dividing the valor, it prevents the "zerg" side with the superior numbers from progressing through valor ranks much faster than the overwhelmed side (the assumption being the zerg side is getting more kills and will hold the majority/all of Ilum.)

 

2. I would also like a system not unlike other games have done (from my own experience, WoW and LoTRO) where a persons Valor rank affects how much Valor an enemy receives for killing them. I think this is a natural progression of the idea of dividing up Valor as in those 1v1 situations, the "underdog" earns more Valor if they win vs. the better geared player.

 

3. Finally I would like the capture points to play a bigger role. I would love to see the implementation of certain areas that would have NPC bosses defending them that could be flipped by either side in addition to the normal points.

 

4. Something else to consider is how "announcements" are done in Ilum. What is the necessity of announcing a person is near a capture point (especially considering a player can avoid the announcement if done properly!). It would be more exciting/reasonable to announce attacks on certain points.

 

Example, a Republic player sneaks around to the Northern Point. He is not announced until he starts the channel for blowing up the Imperial vehicles.

 

This in conjunction with spreading out the armaments throughout Ilum will encourage quick reaction time by a faction to a certain point they control, along with greatly increasing the chance that there will be someone to respond to an attack.

 

5. In the current system, a person is discouraged from leaving Central (or in extreme cases the enemy base) because they must stop farming Valor and dailies to respond to an attack on a point. This could be remedied by adding some incentive for the daily or Valor to killing someone who was trying to take a point.

Off the top of my head, someone responsible for flipping a point would get "marked" for 5 minutes, awarding x2-3 Valor and counting 2-3 times for the daily for anyone who kills said person.

 

 

All great ideas. #2 very much so. I worry about #5 re supporting the zerg when 5 different groups in close proximity decide they want that kill. It would also need some sort of bonus for defending a point successfully other wise you would get a giant man train chasing one dude around the zone. I have the same pvpve concern with 3 but its not a bad idea.

[Olympic]

If this is the development of former Warhammer PvP "guru's", then where is the Warhammer?

 

They had a pretty decent concept, multiple RvR zones with battles for control. Win control of a zone and it locks and the battle moves to another zone. Multiple zones can be in play at any given time thus dispersing the crowds.

 

We have all these great planets with great terrain and we are fighting in a straight up and down direction on a dark block of ice for daily/weekly kills?

 

Take ALL quests out of the equation and make it a straight fight for control with valor earnings for player kills, and a bonus for a "base conquest".

 

Not only have they promoted a zerg environment, they can't handle the number of players. Compounding this is their own lag machines. The objectives have those ships dropping every few minutes, notice the freeze when it happens? The CONSTANT updating of who controls which objective, notice the freeze when that happens?

 

And then they added the feature of a system update to CONSTANTLY let you know who just rode by any of the objectives. Not only is this an additional spam we don't need, it totally hurts the smaller force who is trying to maneuver around.

 

They placed all the objectives in one straight line down the map. Not a real good way to get people moving around the terrain. I would axe the way objectives are taken and replace it with a simple terminal flip like you have in the Alderaan war zone. Negates the lag and we all know its not the simplest thing to flip one of those during a fight.

 

They have a lot of work to do, most people will be patient for awhile, but eventually they are going to have to consult a range of idea's from actual OPEN WORLD pvp'ers and not just design things that "they think will be fun for people".

[PaddySucks]

The big reason the PVP is so different in this, is that there is no body blocking. Body blocking allowed for chockepoints, and a 300 style hold-out. Where-as this just allows the largest group to reap the reward. I think it would be cool to see collision detection implemented, but it isn't feasible with all the leaps and what-not.

[TaxmanBob]

1. this supports zerging. With constant faction imbalance this creates anti-fun for both factions. Once the loosing faction has lost they have no reason to remain in the zone making your well earned valor boost useless. This is simply a bad idea.

 

 

2. The same as my 3 and i agree whole heartedly.

 

3. Hard capping causes a huge line up especially at such a low amount of people. Doing something like a soft cap and keeping a 5-10 player threshold so each faction must be within a certain amount isn't a bad idea though as long as it has a baseline so the threshold doesn't go into effect until 15+. You don't want zone lockouts when one faction simply isn't there.

 

 

Zergs are bad for everyone. Including the server.

 

I agree with your 2 and 3 here. I think what you fail to see is that Ilum is big, and that if you don't direct people towards a common objective it too, will be boring. Driving around a wasteland looking for armaments and getting 2 minutes of excitement every 20 (when you finally see a player to kill), is also not fun. This also supports solo gameplay, discouraging small group PvP, which is what you want. (having to share armaments you find with the players in your group).

 

Now there are solutions to breaking up the zerg. You can spread the current objectives horizontally across the zone more, and require all 3 to be destroyed in order to proceed to the next point. This will make it so the group has to split up more (into 3 groups), and cap all 3 and hold them, in order to progress. You can see how effectively this can play out simply by looking at alderran warzone, and see how often all 3 points get crapped. It happens, but it requires a lot of teamwork or a very certain degree of luck.

[Bludjinni]

I came here to this forum hoping I'd find a topic like this.

 

I quit doing Ilum. I know this will set me back by a considerable marging pvpgear wise. Sucks for me, but I can't bear Ilum. This is the first grind ever I simply refuse to do.

 

These are the bandaids I suggest:

 

- The zone is huge and traveling through it takes forever. With the population issue on many servers, and even on populated servers, getting from A to B and hoping to catch anyone there is practically impossible. Create more graveyards and a more reliable way to get somewhere, such as flightpaths scattered around strategic locations that cannot be capped, just are available to everyone. That will make the needlessly HUGENESS of this zone at least somewhat surmountable.

 

- Armaments. Honestly. Scatter them all over the map and center them around capture points, NOT JUST THE MIDDLE. I'm tired running that 1 circle for 3 hours (yes, that's how long 1 daily is gonna take on my server, grouped with friends, AND I'M IMP I can't fathom how the pubs are getting it).

 

- Repeatable kills. Why a repeated kill does not count towards your daily is beyond me. Not grant valor - whatever, who cares, if that's what it takes to stop farming. Do you honestly expect me to grab a notepad and write down all player names I killed in the past 10 minutes for 3 hours?

 

- 30?!?! objectives? Honestly. And the weekly: 150?! Are you.. i mean. Seriously. All weeklies are on a 1:3 basis: warzone weekly requires 9 wins (3 wins for daily), hardmode weekly requires 3 hardmodes (1 hardmode for daily). So what went wrong with the 30x3 math?

 

- Anyway, bring back the 30 to something managable: 15 tops. A daily doesn't mean you spend your entire day doing it.

 

 

 

Long term fixes I came up with on the fly now:

 

- The zone is just to big for the population on any server, and even if a big server can support the hugeness of it, Ilum is giving many players a FPS headache as it is. Think of a 200vs200 warzone and you can imagine where I'm going. Ilum needs to be reduced in size.

~ A way to do this would be to split Ilum in several smaller zones, that open at random at set intervals so people don't get bored by the same landscape.

 

- A solution I personally do not like much, is making Ilum timed based like Wintergrasp. Say it's up every 2 hours, and a maximum of 30 players can join (because of performance/lag, more would be unwise in the current state of the game). It kills the openworldness intent of Ilum however.

 

- Make capping points a bigger deal. Say capping one point grants you 1 update towards your daily (the valor bonus will still exist), killing players gives you 3 points. This will stop the pointjuggling we had prior to the changes while encouraging movement, exploring, and killing.a

Edited January 25, 2012 by Bludjinni

[art-media]

plz sticky

[Shrug]

This is seriously constructive feedback, as an analyst, true game player, and competitive gamer, that dont ever call OP, rather call the player ignorance card, there is nothing they can fix.. its far to badly designed... can only redo from start and that is my serious assessment and the only solution you can hope for.

Resolve was a horrible design, the classes were designed around lore and trying to fit to a game, where in any game mechanics must come first...

 

We will eventually learn, that lore games, controlled by suits.. will never be good games, because they must cater to the lore and will be sacrificed to the ultimate levels of disaster.

[Axcys]

I agree with your 2 and 3 here. I think what you fail to see is that Ilum is big, and that if you don't direct people towards a common objective it too, will be boring. Driving around a wasteland looking for armaments and getting 2 minutes of excitement every 20 (when you finally see a player to kill), is also not fun. This also supports solo gameplay, discouraging small group PvP, which is what you want. (having to share armaments you find with the players in your group).

 

Now there are solutions to breaking up the zerg. You can spread the current objectives horizontally across the zone more, and require all 3 to be destroyed in order to proceed to the next point. This will make it so the group has to split up more (into 3 groups), and cap all 3 and hold them, in order to progress. You can see how effectively this can play out simply by looking at alderran warzone, and see how often all 3 points get crapped. It happens, but it requires a lot of teamwork or a very certain degree of luck.

 

 

 

I see your point. The only issue with the whole "required to get to the next point" thing is again faction imbalance. The lesser faction needs to be able to sneak behind enemy lines. Doing the 3 horizontal points creates a hard front line still. However slightly concentrating the pickups in smaller camps while still having a few in-between isn't a terrible idea. That would lead people around the map in thinly spread patterns. Its a matter of if people want just another warzone or a real open world pvp area. Your Idea leans it more toward warzone then anything. But thats really up to the player base.

[BuIIseye]

Nonconstructive extremism.

 

Nonconstructive? Is that a joke?

 

The point of valor and the whole grind is that it separates the hardcore PvPers who worked their *** off to get battlemasters and get all the gear and the casuals who sat in Ilum for a week and got to rank 60.

 

IF YOU DONT REMOVE ILUM EVERYONE WILL HAVE BATTLEMASTERS + GEAR.

 

WHATS THE POINT OF IT THEN? LOL

 

Nonconstructive. Let's post suggestions on how to fix it while people are getting to the point where they won't even NEED to go to Ilum anymore. Once everyone is 60+ they'll do their dailies and leave because they got the valor they need.

 

Valor is something that you should be working to get, not sitting there AFK. Remove it until you can figure out something that works. When someone gets the same rank in a week sitting AFK in Ilum as someone who grinds warzones all day for a month, then it should be removed until you can figure out something that works.

 

There is no more casual / hardcore PvPer anymore. There are no arenas or competitive PVP. With this Ilum easymode Valor, PvP is DYING.

[Axcys]

Nonconstructive? Is that a joke?

 

The point of valor and the whole grind is that it separates the hardcore PvPers who worked their *** off to get battlemasters and get all the gear and the casuals who sat in Ilum for a week and got to rank 60.

 

IF YOU DONT REMOVE ILUM EVERYONE WILL HAVE BATTLEMASTERS + GEAR.

 

WHATS THE POINT OF IT THEN? LOL

 

Nonconstructive. Let's post suggestions on how to fix it while people are getting to the point where they won't even NEED to go to Ilum anymore. Once everyone is 60+ they'll do their dailies and leave because they got the valor they need.

 

Valor is something that you should be working to get, not sitting there AFK. Remove it until you can figure out something that works. When someone gets the same rank in a week sitting AFK in Ilum as someone who grinds warzones all day for a month, then it should be removed until you can figure out something that works.

 

There is no more casual / hardcore PvPer anymore. There are no arenas or competitive PVP. With this Ilum easymode Valor, PvP is DYING.

 

Here i have something for you

 

If you actually read my post you would see that there is reasons for them to go back on a constant basis through out the week. No one is getting all their gear out of the first 5 bags they get. Right now Ilum attendance is down to a minimum because whatever faction is outnumbered does not want to go there. You don't want everyone there all the time that would create the same problems that it already has. Your comments have no use in this thread find somewhere else to cry. And if you are a "hardcore PVPer" as you claim to be then you would know the most satisfying pvp is when you overcome odds in small scale fights and thats where you would go to have fun once you have your gear. Unless you only want your gear to sit afk in the capital.

 

They are not going to disable Ilum. Thats completely out of the question. This thread is about how to improve it and nothing else.

[bowtec]

ive yet to make it to ilum.just lvl 38 snipier here.i hope they fix these probs all i hear is crying over ilum.i would hope it would be my favorit part of the game,i love world pvp.ilum needs lots of pvp quests that requier you to explore the hole planit.i dont worry about the pvp stat ill have plenty of that in time.the part about the fun and getting to now your opponits and community is the best.you know picking out you favorite opponit across the feld of battle and sending him/her a smart *** tell and procedding to atack even if they kill you this time theres always next time,or next mounth,or next year and soforth.i plan on playing this game for years hopfully the pvp will evolve in to a great,fun experience.