A serious look at the Smug/Op nerf - a better solution for 1.11? [long read]

[NorthernLights]

dude...you should really stop talking about being emotionally compromised as you yourself obviously are. You are not an objective third party to this discussion your facing the reality of a change to your class and it frightens you. Not even going to lie I didn't read your post almost at all except for the portions where it used red text and dripped with desperation. However you regularly refer to it as your own class, this points to an emotional investment with the class. Like another poster has said I will trust the designers of the game with decisions on how they want their world to run. Like they say they never intended for your class to do what it is doing so they changed it as they saw fit to fall in line with the numbers they were looking for. If I could say anything with a change this large you should get a free respec at least but other than that I'm going to say that I trust the devs to make the call this early on in the games life.

 

 

 

dude... you should just stop talking. In general. You didn't even read his whole post, but then again at least you didn't lie about reading his whole post. His post is extremely well thought out and well done. Whehter or not his proposed fixes are better than what Bioware has in place is up in the air. HOWEVER, as someone who pve's a lot, pretty sure that when they drew up this nerf, they were completely ignoring the pve aspect of things, because with the proposed changes the Ops raid dps is dropped so drastically that there really isnt a point to go as concealment anymore. It's more broken now than the Lethality tree as an Op (only 1 way to get TA+extremely energy heavy).

 

On a side note, I love reading every misinformed post, such as the guy who thinks DoTs dont break stealth. I mean come on, before you come to the forums to cry you'd think you'd at least ASK someone about another classes skill. It's that kind of attitude thats breaking Op dps to begin with, you want YOUR class to be next? (and at this rate it probably will be)

 

And as far as ops being FOTM, I'm not on your server so I can't say, but on my server Ops are still without a doubt the LEAST PLAYED class. But there sure seem to be an endless amount of sorc's/sages around. I agree with the OP in that i don't believe we even needed a DAMAGE nerf. Put a 30 sec cd on hidden strike or something to stop that kind of burst. Why did I think the Ops dps was fine? I might be a raider, but I'm no slouch in pvp (battlemaster PRE Ilum patch) and we have ZERO gap closers. Once again, WE HAVE ZERO GAP CLOSERS. Fighting other 50's in full champion/BM gear as OP dps (yes i tried it out for a few days), I could never drop a heavy armor guy quick unless the stars aligned and every hit crit, usually would drop him to sub 50 percent, or if I popped adrenals/red buff etc (which is the real problem in pvp). I occasionally got top damage in a game and I felt buff. Then people started figuring out how to fight Ops, I never got top dps again. Ops cannot touch the amount of dps a sniper/sorc can put out from THIRTY FIVE METERS AWAY. I usually got somewhere between 15-25 kills a game. I see sorcs average about 40-60 a game. Sure they have aoe and can get the kills easier, but they also average 400k+ damage in a game and minimal deaths. So yeah, Op dps totallllllllllllllllllllllllly needed a nerf *rolls eyes*

 

If anything, especially after this next patch/nerf, Ops need reworking all around. The healing tree is dumb seeing how the 31 pt talent is worthless (debatable i know, but I'm not even specc'd into it anymore and have seen my HPS go UP and i never have energy issues on any fight save for fights with massive raid damage so yeah.) and that Kolto Infusion is absolutely garbage (not debatable). In the lethality tree there isnt a way to get TA, so you have to shiv, making it even more impossible to manage your energy and keep your dps efficiently minus sitting there and auto attacking a lot, which is pretty damn boring. And they are now about to break the concealment tree. So yeah, after this patch I expect so see almost no concealment spec'd ops, a bunch more people trying to figure out the lethality tree (which btw is garbage in pvp against a healer who knows what he's doing lol 1 button dispels 2 poisons) or a lot more fail healers, and even more sorcs/snipers.

Edited January 24, 2012 by NorthernLights

[Sivlar]

IIRC, isn't resolve based off the number of seconds for a stun? If so, lowering the stun duration should lower this. At which point the argument about people escaping a 2nd or 3rd stun is no different than what any other class has to deal with.

 

If a Shadow knocks someone down, then stuns them, that's a full resolve bar. I'm not saying this is the best or worst nerf they could give smugglers/agents, but I don't understand the argument. You really feel you should be able to CC someone the entire duration of a fight?

 

Dirty Kick stuns a target for 4 seconds. If I use that on a target with an empty resolve bar it fills it up about 3/4 of the way. Leaving them open for another stun if they purge it.

 

KO totally fills the resolve bar and knocksdown/stuns the target for 3 seconds.

 

So I don't think resolve is related to the stun duration. Certain abilities seem to fill the bar, others don't. Which can sometimes result in players being stunned 3 times in a row. Then the "cooldown" on the resolve really doesn't last very long either so it can feel like you are stunned many more times in a row than that.

 

The whole resolve mechanic is really quirky and buggy. I've seen it work sometimes and not work other times. They really just need to get rid of it and give people immunity timers on CC effects.

 

Right now this game reminds me of AoC before immunity timers were introduced, PvP is just a big "stunlock til' your dead" fest most of the time.

[KidMcClaren]

really really good post:) completely agreed, in my opinion there is only still a problem , if you dont put your target below 30% health on opener , you dont kill , thats it , so i think i agree with the damage reduction on our burst, but i think then the problem isnt our outside damage is our UPTIME while being kited, i dont want more damage to compensate nerf, i want a close gap.

 

btw I forgot to mention this guy, "if you don't put them below 30% you don't kill guy". No you might not, guess what...no other class can kill someone that fast either, turns out you're not all alone in a wz. Putting someone to below 30% on opener is just hilarious by itself, cuz guess what, you don't have to kill that person, the 5 baddie sorcs you brought along know how to press 1 button. Scoundrels/Ops may now know what it's like to not be able to solo any class in the game without breaking a sweat (and no being able to speed press the Konami Code doesn't count as breaking a sweat). WELCOME TO THE CLUB.

[jHats]

30% Health is nothing you can't make up with your total bypass of armor, excellent range, and a Medpac - better yet, a Healer... who is on your team... who you should start working with.

 

It's easy to keep us out of Stealth once we're out of Stealth. It happens to me, quite literally, all the time. You have a million ways to do it - just use ONE.

 

Notice - this guy didn't argue anything in the OP that wasn't already covered in the reading, which means he clearly did not read it. Notice that he has zero knowledge of how these classes actually work.

 

"DoT's don't keep you from going stealth." - WRONG! First of all, they break our Stealth. Second of all, we cannot use Stealth while we are in combat, which often times can be a rather long time since we don't ALWAYS go INTO Stealth to get stuff done. Thirdly, Disappearing Act can be easily broken with... you can read about this below.

 

"I know you dont have leaps and sprints and other closers, but you do have vanish and its on a pretty short cooldown." - Specced, it's a 2m cooldown. I would hardly say that is a "short" CD. Nice try though...

 

"You have THE HIGHEST escapability out of any class in the game period." - Because of Disappearing Act - that breaks on Bleeds (DoT's), Mind Affecting DoT's, Sticky Grenades, Stealth Sensor Traps, 90 Degree arc for up to 15m of vision, and AoE Pushback? Do you know how often Sages and Sorcs can use "Force Run"? I see them use it after every cap... *shrug*

 

"You can jump in and out for ganks." - Not really, but I won't be getting into it. I've done enough explaining. Someone else can tackle this one.

 

AGAINST a Team, we are worthless - you should try it sometime. WITH a Team - anyone would be fine - you should try THAT too.

 

Yawn. Same tired argument. It gets old.

 

I grinded to 62 battlemaster and I did it without camping kids on Ilum. I love how kids presume to know that others don't have a clue because their point doesnt match the one they are arguing for.

 

Do you think Bioware actually only goes by what is said on these forums? They have loads and loads of data. The meterics they showed during beta (the maps, 3d maps, deathspots) are a VERY valuable way to see the real numbers and not just guess work like we do. Im sure they havent came to this conclusion lightly.

 

The changes are happening. Either l2Deal or re-roll.

[Osceana]

You lost all credibility when you said 30% health was fine for 1v1, go argue to someone that cares. Your class needs the nerf or maybe i should say your class needs a damage realynment to much damage on the front end of your attacks and no meat. And you very well can get out of combat even with dots on, i leave two dots on you and i still have you vanish. Only thing i have that can pull you out of stealth after i put it on you is my explosive plastique.

[NorthernLights]

So I don't think resolve is related to the stun duration. Certain abilities seem to fill the bar, others don't. Which can sometimes result in players being stunned 3 times in a row. Then the "cooldown" on the resolve really doesn't last very long either so it can feel like you are stunned many more times in a row than that.

 

If you get stunned twice by an Op, you CANNOT get stunned by anyone again until your resolve goes down. Hell, as of right now if you get knocked down by the opener, you cannot get stunned again.

 

What people are experiencing most likely, and what they are completely oblivious too it seems, is that we also have a 2 second root that can be spec'd into and big surprise! Resolve does NOT stop roots (among other things *cough force choke cough*)

 

working as intended!

broken systems are broken.

[NorthernLights]

You lost all credibility when you said 30% health was fine for 1v1, go argue to someone that cares. Your class needs the nerf or maybe i should say your class needs a damage realynment to much damage on the front end of your attacks and no meat. And you very well can get out of combat even with dots on, i leave two dots on you and i still have you vanish. Only thing i have that can pull you out of stealth after i put it on you is my explosive plastique.

 

 

You CANNOT RESTEALTH WITH DOTS ON YOU. So tired of seeing people think you can. It's like people dont even realize that ALL OPS get a dispel that removes tech effects (and mental if its spec'd). A good op will dispel himself then vanish.

[Lagmonster]

You CANNOT RESTEALTH WITH DOTS ON YOU. So tired of seeing people think you can. It's like people dont even realize that ALL OPS get a dispel that removes tech effects (and mental if its spec'd). A good op will dispel himself then vanish.

 

*cough* evasion will remove a lot of effects (refer to "advanced training" skill, gained at level 24)

[NorthernLights]

*cough* evasion will remove a lot of effects (refer to "advanced training" skill, gained at level 24)

 

So you're upset that we get a move thats constantly on cool down to remove effects so we actually get to restealth and aren't completely useless?

 

Right.

[Wolfsfable]

They are making it so you can get one major attack maybe 2 attacks off by time your stun wears off. This is the case with EVERY classes stun and ability combo. Face it you are now in the same boat as everyone else. Thats all they did they made you like every other class in the game, when you cry about the nerf try to remember that and you will understand why no one other than your fella ops/scoundrels has any sympathy for your "blight".

 

We are not viabile out of stealth!

 

BS I have seen video after video of an op running around out of stealth handing out 3K crits like a madman.

 

We dont have sustainable damage!

 

BS you have chosen the wrong tree for PVE if you cant sustain your damage. Check out the Lethality tree if you want sustainable damage. Dont try to argue that it isn't sustainable I play sniper and that is the tree I run.

 

Our knockdown fills the resolve bar!

 

Huh so? I firmly believe that resolve is worthless WORTHLESS and as for claims it gives 20S stun immunity thats a negative ghost rider as soon as that needle falls to 999 you can be stunned again. Not to mention it doesn't protect against roots and snares of which you would have 2 snares for "gap closers" in the Lethality tree. Your server tendon and your corrosive grenade. Not to mention flashbang is also a good one.

 

You (ops/scoundrels) need to deal with it, you are getting nerfed. The good players will adapt the bad players will cry and leave the game. To them I say goodbye no easy mode here!

[Sivlar]

If you get stunned twice by an Op, you CANNOT get stunned by anyone again until your resolve goes down. Hell, as of right now if you get knocked down by the opener, you cannot get stunned again.

 

What people are experiencing most likely, and what they are completely oblivious too it seems, is that we also have a 2 second root that can be spec'd into and big surprise! Resolve does NOT stop roots (among other things *cough force choke cough*)

 

working as intended!

broken systems are broken.

 

That's pretty much what I said. If we use KO it fills the bar, Dirty Kick does not, Flashbang does not. Flashbang and Dirty Kick together will fill the bar. If they nerf the duration of KO, will it still fill the resolve bar? No one really knows since we can't copy to the test server and try it out.

 

Roots and Snares are a totally different story and don't affect resolve at all. Which is why you can get chain snared and rooted.

Edited January 24, 2012 by Sivlar

[NorthernLights]

We are not viabile out of stealth!

 

BS I have seen video after video of an op running around out of stealth handing out 3K crits like a madman.

 

We dont have sustainable damage!

 

BS you have chosen the wrong tree for PVE if you cant sustain your damage. Check out the Lethality tree if you want sustainable damage. Dont try to argue that it isn't sustainable I play sniper and that is the tree I run.

 

 

I love reading posts from snipers on Ops. You do realize that we have the tactical advantage mechanic to worry about, and you don't right? I wish I could cull whenever I wanted to and not when I only have a TA+the energy to use cull without dropping me to the last tier of energy regen. Also, you cant be running around handing out 3k crits like a madman as an op when most of your attacks have cd's on them or require you to be behind someone. Unless the video you were watching had a lvl 50 op picking on lowbies all game, which lets be honest, any class can destroy a lowbie. Also how can you say flashbang is good with corrosive grenade? Dots break flashbang, and flashbang immediately fills an entire resolve bar. Flashbang is great, no amazing, but situational.

Edited January 24, 2012 by NorthernLights

[Coolcutter]

This nerf won't be that bad for geared, stim-using smugglers and ops, but it will be devastating for non-champion players. With our other DPS tree already being broken, I don't really see the point in anything but speccing healing or hybrid healing, cause our high level talents in both dps trees are alll really messed up, some flat out not even working.

 

But really the thing that it really craps all over is solo PvE. Can't imagine the 38-50 without the 3sec of KD and reduced damage on top of that will make life as a smuggler a living hell.

It is sad to say, but we are as much reliant on our opening burst in sPvE as we are in PVP

[Wolfsfable]

That's pretty much what I said. If we use KO it fills the bar, Dirty Kick does not, Flashbang does not. Flashbang and Dirty Kick together will fill the bar. If they nerf the duration of KO, will it still fill the resolve bar? No one really knows since we can't copy to the test server and try it out.

 

Roots and Snares are a totally different story and don't affect resolve at all. Which is why you can get chain snared and rooted.

 

Huh both dirty kicks and Flashbang are broken once the target takes damage your knockdown doesnt break on target taking damage. Learn the difference before you try to compare skills.

[Lagmonster]

So you're upset that we get a move thats constantly on cool down to remove effects so we actually get to restealth and aren't completely useless?

 

Right.

 

I came across as upset?

 

I'm simple saying you have a cloak of shadows type skill to use for cloaking screen.

 

So please don't complain about NOT having the option to have a clean cloaking screen when you have the ability to ensure it happens. How you use evasion is up to you and your play style. But the option is there along with our cleanse for certain dots.

[NorthernLights]

I came across as upset?

 

I'm simple saying you have a cloak of shadows type skill to use for cloaking screen.

 

So please don't complain about NOT having the option to have a clean cloaking screen when you have the ability to ensure it happens. How you use evasion is up to you and your play style. But the option is there along with our cleanse for certain dots.

 

I never complained once about not having the option to have a clean cloaking screen. But okay. I simply pointed out that we have a dispel to remove tech effects.

Edited January 24, 2012 by NorthernLights

[Wolfsfable]

I love reading posts from snipers on Ops. You do realize that we have the tactical advantage mechanic to worry about, and you don't right? I wish I could cull whenever I wanted to and not when I only have a TA+the energy to use cull without dropping me to the last tier of energy regen. Also, you cant be running around handing out 3k crits like a madman as an op when most of your attacks have cd's on them or require you to be behind someone. Unless the video you were watching had a lvl 50 op picking on lowbies all game, which lets be honest, any class can destroy a lowbie. Also how can you say flashbang is good with corrosive grenade? Dots break flashbang, and flashbang immediately fills an entire resolve bar. Flashbang is great, no amazing, but situational.

 

Try again after you watch this video

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-shZ8B_I9wo

 

and to gain TA you have to shiv something and you can store them OOOOO that would be SOOO hard to do! I mean since I dont have shiv or anything

 

/sarcasm

 

Lethality tree allows you to toss corrosive grenade again before its effects even wear off but since you are in easy stab people in the back you wouldnt know that right? Flashbang can be used on a non dotted target yes you have to use that grey matter between your ears to use it effectively and even if you did toss it on someone that is dotted wait for your dot to tick it wont tick again for 3 seconds which means the flashbang will last for 3 seconds.

Edited January 24, 2012 by Wolfsfable

[NorthernLights]

Try again after you watch this video

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-shZ8B_I9wo

 

store your TA for 10 second before you lose it wooooo. Or you can reshiv, lose more energy dropping another tier in the regen, and get another TA! It's not energy efficient. It is not. (for lethality)

 

also, you realize that the video you posted has an Op in a pvp group, with a healer almost always on him. If you don't have a pocket healer, you will die out of stealth. It happens.

Edited January 24, 2012 by NorthernLights

[Wolfsfable]

store your TA for 10 second before you lose it wooooo. Or you can reshiv, lose more energy dropping another tier in the regen, and get another TA! It's not energy efficient. It is not.

 

Yes it is I play the spec in endgame im not going to sit here and work out your rotation for you try it before you try to argue. You havent even studied the tree! You ignore it like the black plague cause you have been running around in easy mode forever, probably know your 3 keys blindfolded.

Edited January 24, 2012 by Wolfsfable

[Voradoor]

You're wrong about the 1.5 KD and gobal, I thought the same thing about spin kick with my shadow but was also wrong.

using spin kick which is the same KD timer, I can get one more abilty off before they get away.

[NorthernLights]

Yes it is I play the spec in endgame im not going to sit here and work out your rotation for you try it before you try to argue.

 

congradulations. I tried it endgame and it is NOT energy efficient. You spend a lot of time auto attacking rather than dropping an energy regen rate to pull off your shiv. You JUST SAID you're a sniper, so now you're the authority on how it works for Ops? I'm not going to sit here and try and tell you how to play your class, I'm sure you know an infinite amount more about snipers than I ever will.

[Sivlar]

Huh both dirty kicks and Flashbang are broken once the target takes damage your knockdown doesnt break on target taking damage. Learn the difference before you try to compare skills.

 

Um, Dirty Kick does not break on damage brah. Only Flashbang and Sleep Dart break on damage.

 

The point, I was trying to answer another posters question about the length of a CC affecting the amount of resolve granted.

 

KO fills resolve and is going to be nerfed to a 1.5s stun. Which means you cannot stun them again until resolve runs out.

 

Dirty Kick is a 4s stun and does not fill the resolve bar. Which means you can stun them again.

 

However the resolve bar will be full if you dirty kick them then hit your flashbang. Thus indicating resolve has nothing to do with the length of a CC. Abilities seem to be coded to grant specific amounts to the bar.

 

Since the stun time of KO is getting nerfed, will it still fill resolve? No one knows. It would make sense that it should not fill resolve after the nerf but chances are it still will, rendering the ability useless and a waste to put points in.

Edited January 24, 2012 by Sivlar

[TheHoodedFang]

Amazing post, I couldn't agree more, and have taken the liberty of quoting you in my signature.

 

We need more people like you on these forums, kudos for doing the research and taking the time to present the evidence, data and alternative suggestions here for all to see.

[TheHoodedFang]

Huh both dirty kicks and Flashbang are broken once the target takes damage your knockdown doesnt break on target taking damage. Learn the difference before you try to compare skills.

 

Flashbang breaks on damage.

 

Dirty Kick does not.

 

I've bolded the appropriate area so that you can review and take your own advice.

[Lagmonster]

I never complained once about not having the option to have a clean cloaking screen. But okay. I simply pointed out that we have a dispel to remove tech effects.

 

well I guess were both coming across the wrong way to each other. Good ol mixed internet messages.