PvE pyro is real?

[Mamm]

I love pyro in PvP, but for PvE i must be in Arsenal build. So, can Pyro dps in pve same as arsenal? And any build example?

 

Just hate interruptts in pvp and los =_=

[Yazule]

I love pyro in PvP, but for PvE i must be in Arsenal build. So, can Pyro dps in pve same as arsenal? And any build example?

 

Just hate interruptts in pvp and los =_=

 

yeah i am keeping full dps arsenal because few can out dps it in pve and we are raiding, if they give me a second spec to switch back and forth i am torn between hybred and pyro though

[jneim]

PvE damage is numbers is really gonna depend on how well we watch our DoT's and make sure they are always on as pyro spec. But arsenal def has higher sustainable damage output. But i rotate back and forth for each.

[diogolp]

The main reason arsenal has an edge is the reduction in armor that should benefit the entire group. You may be able to keep your own damage at the same level, but the lack of the debuff hurts your group.

[Aedn]

i just ran a couple hard modes with pyro, worked fine, just a different rotation.

 

Sadly, the lack of group debuff is an issue, although it worked well for kiting that one boss in kaon.

[Infighter]

I was thinking about it... I think Pyro with a lot of alacrity and power or crit might actually manage to pull some good numbers.

 

More Alacrity = faster Power Shots and Unloads which = to more PPA procs...

 

Though this is just speculation and won't be able to know anything about it until we have a combat log.

[Iandayen]

I was thinking about it... I think Pyro with a lot of alacrity and power or crit might actually manage to pull some good numbers.

 

More Alacrity = faster Power Shots and Unloads which = to more PPA procs...

 

Though this is just speculation and won't be able to know anything about it until we have a combat log.

 

Wrong.

 

Global cooldown is 1.5 seconds.

 

Cast on power shot is 1.5 seconds.

 

You will never get more than one power shot off every 1.5 seconds.

 

-------------------------------------

 

Pyro will never do as much as arsenal in PvE for one reason - Heat management.

 

As arsenal your crits with TM/HSM and unload are all refunding heat - making them cost 1/2 as much.

 

And as Arsenal, with your 4 pc pve bonus rail shot costs zero heat.

 

Pyro is great for pvp - it has awesome burst, but Arsenal blows it out of the water in PvE due to heat management.

[drenmar]

Wrong.

 

Global cooldown is 1.5 seconds.

 

Cast on power shot is 1.5 seconds.

 

You will never get more than one power shot off every 1.5 seconds.

 

-------------------------------------

 

Pyro will never do as much as arsenal in PvE for one reason - Heat management.

 

As arsenal your crits with TM/HSM and unload are all refunding heat - making them cost 1/2 as much.

 

And as Arsenal, with your 4 pc pve bonus rail shot costs zero heat.

 

Pyro is great for pvp - it has awesome burst, but Arsenal blows it out of the water in PvE due to heat management.

 

Not sure if you've noticed, but alacrity pushes the GCD down when using abilities with an activation time. For example, if your ability takes 1.2s to cast because of alacrity you'll be able to use your next ability after the cast has finished, but if you use an instant, you still have the 1.5s GCD.

Edited January 24, 2012 by drenmar

[Iandayen]

no it doesn't.

 

I have tried. gotten to a 1.2 second cast time on tracer - alacrity does nothing to the gcd.

[Infighter]

 

Unless they changed it on live...

 

I don't think they did, though. Because it would make the stat absolutely and utterly useless.

[Pwnyride]

If An amount of alacrity reduces the cast time of a cast time ability to lower than the GCD the GCD of the ability is reduced to meet the new cast time. Instant cast abilities are unaffected.

[Iandayen]

it looks that way yes, but if you try to spam that ability you can't actually cast it until the gcd would be off of cooldown.

 

 

Maybe it's the skill lag in game doing that, but that's what i've seen from my own current testing, and not going off of some youtube video someone posted in beta.

 

Edit - and the stat is utterly useless.

 

By getting alacrity you are giving up on other way more important stats like crit and surge wich for Arsenal are your go to stats, and for anyone seriously contemplating pve arsenal is what you would go.

 

For pvp crit is burst and burst is king, anyone wanting to stack alacrity on gear in pvp is out of their mind too.

Edited January 24, 2012 by Iandayen

[TempestasSilva]

Wrong.

 

Global cooldown is 1.5 seconds.

 

Cast on power shot is 1.5 seconds.

 

You will never get more than one power shot off every 1.5 seconds.

 

 

no it doesn't.

 

I have tried. gotten to a 1.2 second cast time on tracer - alacrity does nothing to the gcd.

 

it looks that way yes, but if you try to spam that ability you can't actually cast it until the gcd would be off of cooldown.

 

 

Maybe it's the skill lag in game doing that, but that's what i've seen from my own current testing, and not going off of some youtube video someone posted in beta.

 

Edit - and the stat is utterly useless.

 

 

OMG. Stop please. I'm sorry you can't notice it in your testing, but your testing is flawed.

 

If you don't believe the youtube evidence, how about reading this thread:

http://sithwarrior.com/forums/Thread-Alacrity-and-the-GCD

 

And read past the first few pages where they thought there was no effect but wen on to prove there is.

 

http://www.squidoo.com/swtor-alacrity

 

http://sithwarrior.com/forums/Thread-SWTOR-formula-list

Activation Speed = CastingTime * ( 1 - ( %AlacrityFromSkillsAndBuffs / 100 ) - 0.3 * ( 1 - ( 1 - ( 0.01 / 0.3 ) )^( ( AlacrityRating / max(Level,20) ) / 0.55 ) ) )

Alacrity does not affect instant cast spells or the rate at which DoT's and HoT's tick, but does improve all cast time spells and channeled spells.

 

Should I continue?

Edited January 24, 2012 by TempestasSilva

[Stranded_Law]

He may be wrong, but it's still not worth it.

 

And I plan to level up entirely in Pyro. I'm astonished that some of you think this game is even remotely difficult. I'll be pvping constantly as I level up as well, and I have zero desire to be a turret at any point of my Merc career.

 

I can solo Champion bosses 1-3 levels higher than me by kiting them thanks to Sweltering Heat. Try that with your Tracer Missile spam.

 

Merc is one of the easiest classes to play in this entire game...if I'm providing myself even a little bit more of a challenge by leveling in Pyro...GREAT. In lieu of being able to increase the difficulty setting of pve, I find other ways to challenge myself. Pulling two groups of strongs at once to keep me on my toes - soloing H2+'s and champion bosses. You have to keep challenging yourself. This game is quite simple.

[Iandayen]

Okay, so my testing was flawed and I'm wrong about alacrity and the GCD.

 

 

But i'm not wrong about it being a useless stat for arsenal and pyro builds.

[iYukiFox]

OMG. Stop please. I'm sorry you can't notice it in your testing, but your testing is flawed.

 

If you don't believe the youtube evidence, how about reading this thread:

http://sithwarrior.com/forums/Thread-Alacrity-and-the-GCD

 

And read past the first few pages where they thought there was no effect but wen on to prove there is.

 

http://www.squidoo.com/swtor-alacrity

 

http://sithwarrior.com/forums/Thread-SWTOR-formula-list

Activation Speed = CastingTime * ( 1 - ( %AlacrityFromSkillsAndBuffs / 100 ) - 0.3 * ( 1 - ( 1 - ( 0.01 / 0.3 ) )^( ( AlacrityRating / max(Level,20) ) / 0.55 ) ) )

Alacrity does not affect instant cast spells or the rate at which DoT's and HoT's tick, but does improve all cast time spells and channeled spells.

 

Should I continue?

 

So please tell me why I cannot cast tracer missiles back to back with just about 1.1-1.2 cast time. There is a delay because of the GCD. It's not skill lag or server lag either because the skills are still greyed out and the line is still going down meaning my GCD isn't up yet. And even if the gods took pity on you and somehow we are ALL WRONG and alacrity does affect GCD. It still would not be worth it. One..you over heat too much and also do far less dmg. 1.5seconds is a very fast cast for the amount of damage you can pump out when you do far more with crit and surge and power

[NessusFett]

agreed^

 

Even if alacrity did help the GCD,

 

lets say you can get (hypothetically) 1.1 second cast times on your moves.

 

That means you would be getting 2.727272 shots off in 3 seconds instead of 2.

assuming they are a round 1400 damage each (due to the loss of power from the alacrity build)

 

That means with full alacrity gear you would be doing 3818 damage in 3 seconds.

(assuming no crit)

 

 

Now lets look at crit based build.

 

with 3 seconds you would have 2 tracers off,

now lets assume you get your critical to about 35% and critical multiplier to 75% (reasonable to compare to a 1 second cast time since its not quite possible)

 

 

that would put the 2 shots like this

 

2((1500+1500*.75)*.35 crit damage*percentage)+( 1500*.65)standard damage*percentage)

2( ( 2625 *.35) + (975))

2 (1893.75)

 

 

that comes out to an expected 3787.5

 

 

This is not including all the other damage that you are gaining from having more power on EVERY move instead of just tracer spamming (like this example)

 

That also means that all your other moves are more likely to crit.

That also means you will not be spinning through your rotation earlier an building more heat.

AND the fact that the alacrity only helps on cast times.

 

so all your instant moves will simply be losing from the lack of power/crit/surge.

 

In effect. Alacrity is not what you want to build in Arsenal.

No healing may be debatable. but likely still crits are more important.

Edited January 25, 2012 by NessusFett

[Infighter]

^ Except that we are talking about pyro in this thread. But okay.

 

I just tested with a 1.3s cast time Power Shot and I could cast it back to back without any delay.

 

Not sure why people keep saying otherwise.

[Battilea]

I was thinking about it... I think Pyro with a lot of alacrity and power or crit might actually manage to pull some good numbers.

 

More Alacrity = faster Power Shots and Unloads which = to more PPA procs...

 

Though this is just speculation and won't be able to know anything about it until we have a combat log.

 

Flawed idea.

 

The reason you need those PPA procs is so that you can control the heat generated by the PSs (and Unloads). By firing more frequently, you'll increase the heat you generate within the time period. And, since the heat increase is equal to the heat generated minus the heat cooldown (the 5/3/2 per tick), you'll actually see a net increase in heat gained over time. The exact opposite of the effect you want.

 

Anyway, I've been playing my merc as Pyro. I do fine in PvE. Not sure how I compare to Arsenal though, haven't really grouped with one or played one. As far as Pyro goes, I do have a couple of complaints.

 

The first is that I find Thermal Detonator, from a PvE standpoint, very underwhelming. It does about the same damage as Power Shot, except PS can trigger PPA, does 9% more damage to burning targets, and does the damage now, not later. Now, sure, TD is instant, which is useful if you have to stay mobile, but not that huge of a DPS gain, due to its cooldown and the damage the basic attack does (especially when you factor in chance to proc the DoT). I'm thinking about dumping it, rather spend the talent points elsewhere. Seriously, when Leia busted it out in Jabba's throne room, everyone, not just Jabba, should have laughed. As is, seems more like a PvP thing than a PvE one.

 

And second, I don't like the interaction between Power Shot and PPA. To maximize damage, you need to follow a PS with another PS, no gap between. However, because PS doesn't decide to give the buff until after it has completed its casting, it is too late for you to change your mind about what the next attack is. So you wind up with PS (procs PPA), PS, Rail. And if that second PS procs as well, you lost out. Instead of using a 0 heat ability that actually lowers your heat by 8, you've used an ability that adds 16 heat instead, a 24 point heat swing. It is pretty significant, especially when you are spamming PSs leading up to a Vent Heat. In that situation, it amounts to PPA only proc'ing 21% of the time, rather than 30%.

Edited January 25, 2012 by Battilea

[Infighter]

Flawed idea.

 

The reason you need those PPA procs is so that you can control the heat generated by the PSs (and Unloads). By firing more frequently, you'll increase the heat you generate within the time period. And, since the heat increase is equal to the heat generated minus the heat cooldown (the 5/3/2 per tick), you'll actually see a net increase in heat gained over time. The exact opposite of the effect you want.

 

And all is good in words until we have some actual math and numbers behind our opinions, I guess.

 

You're right with the fact that the heat generated will be higher with a lot of alacrity but, with smarter heat management, the number of rail shots we cast AND the increase of uptime of our combustile gas on the target might give us an increase in dps in a long fight.

 

There are too many variables to simply shrug off a theory without going a bit deeper into it.

Edited January 25, 2012 by Infighter

[Bulwyz]

I have been playing with the talent calculator trying to figure a pyro build for operations, havent tested it yet, but what do you think? I'm sure gonna miss that 20% armor defuff

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#300MMZMczZcGbrzGhrs.1

[Ewert]

The term "GCD" does not apply to SWTOR, there is only "insta-cast global CD". Something that does not exist (GCD on channels/casttime abilities) should not be explained away to being "shortened to nonexistance" just because earlier games used a system like that. Anyways... this is bit offtangent on the pyro issue and more about alacrity, which I dislike seeing dissed so much. Hence here goes some musings from my experiences and views.

 

If there are significant procs that have a set internal CD (like 3s, 6s), then mismatching it due to alacrity may lead to lowered DPS even in face of increased amounts of heatfree abilities used overall. However, if the proc is NOT 100% certain, then the chance of it actually lowering overall dps is lesser, nobody really can say for sure. Depends.

 

What I can say for 100% certainty is that alacrity is _the_ reliable "burst" stat, since anyone doing anything "meaningful" (read: not wimpy, as in player skill not mattering way more than stats in completing it like normal modes etc.) tends to have to have reliable "burst". By burst I do not mean random spikes, but controlled increased spenditure of resources to have a short controlled burst of dmg or healing. As in like tons of boss mechanics, and healing pretty much anything tough.

 

I'm a bodyguard. My haste is at the moment 22.42%, I am at crit% "soft cap". When I need burst, I can use +surge adrenal and +power (or +alacrity, should check how high my haste gets lol) relic, that gets me near 100% surge, softcap crit%, AND I dare you to find anyone who can get 22.42% extra healing from stacking +power compared to what alacrity gives. When I need that healing burst, I don't care much about heat, I have the support CD running, I have vent heat available if situation stays SNAFU afterwards and I can't chill with heatless instas and judicial healing to cool off if I got to 40+. Heck, I have often troubles even overheating, what with knockbacks, needing to maneuver (and there I also benefit from haste, since moving = time wasted not creating heat = more heat to waste for faster casts afterwards).

 

My personal experience as a healer having cleared both OPs in HM, and played somewhat much PvP is that alacrity is massively useful stat for a cast-time heavy advanced class. Bodyguards and arsenal are. Pyro maybe not so much, don't know haven't checked it that much. A quick thinktank about it:

 

Combustible gas cylinder: extra rapid shots in heat limited situations due to extra time to cast them, overall much more shots to proc it

Rail shot refresh proc not limited by internal CD

Automated defenses will prolly be impossible to approximate theorycrafting with alacrity, yes the timer is broken by not casting power shot every 1.5secs, instead you get more rapid shots for near guaranteed crits ... overall I'd reckon effect is very minimal if negative, and it may even be positive (unload gets two of the hits very fast after the 1.5 internal CD unless you have extrahigh alacrity).

 

Missile and rail shot, otherwise unload/powershot spam? Definitely looks like alacrity will pull a similar weight as with my bodyguard healing, since aside the railshot refresh procs, looks like over 80% of the time is spent spamming unload/powershot. I actually got interested in going pyro for my dps build if I ever try one, haha.

[Kunovega]

 

Unless they changed it on live...

 

I don't think they did, though. Because it would make the stat absolutely and utterly useless.

 

it doesnt make it useless, it makes it specific for its purpose

 

alacrity is for healers, not dps, you know why?

 

1. it allows the heal to land faster, making it safer to cast heals in a pinch

 

2. there are heals with longer casting times than 1.5 seconds, it noticably reduces these longer casting time heals regardless of global cooldowns

 

this is a pure design issue, alacrity makes healers better every where you turn but has limited to no effect on dps builds

 

damage attacks (with rare exception) are in the 1.5 range and while yes it can make the attack land faster it DOES NOT AFFECT GLOBAL COOLDOWN, yes it can make the button visually appear to light up faster but if you actually TIME when you can cast things, nothing has changed

 

tracer missle is the easiest thing to prove this with, watch closer

 

9 seconds is 6 missles no matter how much alacrity you have (and ive gotten tracer to 1 second with alacrity, you still cant cast another until 1.5 seconds has been reached, it just lands at 1 second and you sit there for another .5)

 

on top of that you are giving up damage in every case in exchange for alacrity

Edited January 25, 2012 by Kunovega

[Infighter]

it doesnt make it useless, it makes it specific for its purpose

 

alacrity is for healers, not dps, you know why?

 

1. it allows the heal to land faster, making it safer to cast heals in a pinch

 

2. there are heals with longer casting times than 1.5 seconds, it noticably reduces these longer casting time heals regardless of global cooldowns

 

this is a pure design issue, alacrity makes healers better every where you turn but has limited to no effect on dps builds

 

damage attacks (with rare exception) are in the 1.5 range and while yes it can make the attack land faster it DOES NOT AFFECT GLOBAL COOLDOWN, yes it can make the button visually appear to light up faster but if you actually TIME when you can cast things, nothing has changed

 

tracer missle is the easiest thing to prove this with, watch closer

 

9 seconds is 6 missles no matter how much alacrity you have (and ive gotten tracer to 1 second with alacrity, you still cant cast another until 1.5 seconds has been reached, it just lands at 1 second and you sit there for another .5)

 

Have you tested this yourself or have you just read this somewhere in the forums? Because I'm testing this RIGHT NOW with power shot and 1.2s cast time and I can chain-cast them back to back without any of this delay you people are talking about.

[Iandayen]

It doesn't matter.

 

Dropping crit and surge for alacrity is going to hurt your damage - not improve it.

 

There are no if's ands or buts about it. In pvp as pyro you need crit and surge all the time to get people down, on my server almost nobody in the level 50 bracket has less than 16k health.

 

I run around in my DPS gear with 19.8k hp in PvP - 33% crit and 75% surge.

 

If I dropped say 10% crit and 10% surge to get 20% alacrity, that would kill my burst. I would be tickling people hitting them for 1500 non crit, and my crits would do 10% less damage.

 

In PvE - Pyro blows balls no heat management and you won't be doing much DPS.