mistrfantasy Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 I think most people here complaining about PVP stats never played WOW in vanilla when there WAS NO PVP STAT. And do you wanna know what happened? The top 10% of the population in powerful raid gear just dominated and face-rolled everybody because those people were hitting up to 3x the damage and 1.5x the hp of the rest of the population. The whole reason why Resilience was implemented in BC was to give PVP players a progression and to prevent those hardcore raiders from dominating PVP in PVE gear. Now you might be saying, well instead of getting rolled by people in top class PVE gear, i'm getting rolled by people in top class PVP gear. Well atleast these people in battlemaster and champion gear PVP. It was kind of silly for someone who never pvp'd in their life, got really geared through PVE progression, and then just 1 shot every1 in a BG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cogbyrn Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 I don't think stats are necessary. See: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=224315 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Philar Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 So you believe that the solution to having PvE wrecking PvP is to add more PvE into PvP? Why not do the smart thing and remove all the PvE from the PvP and treat them like the separate entites that they are? It is impossible to have a balanced system if any form of progression exists. This is fine in PvE because getting better stats is the GOAL. This is the opposite of fine in PvP because it is supposed to be about player skill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AidenPryde Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Sorry. You are wrong. DAoC proved that if you balance the itemizaiton systems of PvP and PvE so that equal time equals equal reward. Thus you do not need a PvP only stat. The itemization system is so broken in this game that people are raiding EV Nightmare mode in their PvP gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistrfantasy Posted January 23, 2012 Author Share Posted January 23, 2012 So you believe that the solution to having PvE wrecking PvP is to add more PvE into PvP? Why not do the smart thing and remove all the PvE from the PvP and treat them like the separate entites that they are? It is impossible to have a balanced system if any form of progression exists. This is fine in PvE because getting better stats is the GOAL. This is the opposite of fine in PvP because it is supposed to be about player skill. Well if you look at how WOW does it w/ Arena Rating, the players with the best gear ARE the most skilled. This is more of an issue on how to obtain PVP gear, rather then the existence of PVP gear itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serkazong Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Maybe raid gear doesnt have to allow people to hit for 3x damage, maybe 1.1x or 1.2x is enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistrfantasy Posted January 23, 2012 Author Share Posted January 23, 2012 Sorry. You are wrong. DAoC proved that if you balance the itemizaiton systems of PvP and PvE so that equal time equals equal reward. Thus you do not need a PvP only stat. The itemization system is so broken in this game that people are raiding EV Nightmare mode in their PvP gear. This is an issue of the way this game itemizes stuff. The mods in PVP gear are the same as the mods in PVE gear, which is why you can raid in PVP gear(or the smarter action would be extracting the mods and putting it in your orange/purple gear). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chton Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 So you believe that the solution to having PvE wrecking PvP is to add more PvE into PvP? Why not do the smart thing and remove all the PvE from the PvP and treat them like the separate entites that they are? It is impossible to have a balanced system if any form of progression exists. This is fine in PvE because getting better stats is the GOAL. This is the opposite of fine in PvP because it is supposed to be about player skill. People keep talking abotu player skill in MMO PVP, huh? It's all about gear progression and time put in. Most of these folks wouldn't have it any other way. I don't care about the handful of people who come on here and want that kind of game, they exist but they are a tiny minority. Real skilled PVP comes in FPS games, so go there to find skill based gaming. MMO PVP is designed to reward time put in, and most of these folks wouldn't have it any other way. Remove the gear grind and see how many people actually PvP for the "fun or challenge". You'll see why MMO PVP is designed this way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Philar Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 (edited) Well if you look at how WOW does it w/ Arena Rating, the players with the best gear ARE the most skilled. This is more of an issue on how to obtain PVP gear, rather then the existence of PVP gear itself. WoW is not really skill based at all. Success in WoW is determined by these things, in order of importance: Gear Team Composition (virtual tie with gear in some seasons) Enemy Mistakes The only reason people with the best gear are at the top of the arena ladder is because they can curb-stomp the teeth out of those who have less gear simply because of the gear disparity. Edited January 23, 2012 by Darth_Philar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theMeldo Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 (edited) Resilience existed because blizzard ****ed up gear scaling. People two shotting eachother (in raid OR pvp gear) wasn't conducive to arena play which many classes were balanced around for pvp purposes. R14 gear was the equivalent of T2.5. The R14 1h weapons for melee were better than everything until Naxxramas. For casters, they were on par with the sword in aq40. It wasn't imbalanced before t3, which is where it got out of hand. Raid gear was also easier to obtain, as you could obtain it with a relatively lower time commitment than R14 which basically required you to no-life for several months. What bothers me is that instead of working to eliminate these issues on launch, Bioware decided to make expertise. Edited January 23, 2012 by theMeldo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistrfantasy Posted January 23, 2012 Author Share Posted January 23, 2012 People keep talking abotu player skill in MMO PVP, huh? It's all about gear progression and time put in. Most of these folks wouldn't have it any other way. I don't care about the handful of people who come on here and want that kind of game, they exist but they are a tiny minority. Real skilled PVP comes in FPS games, so go there to find skill based gaming. MMO PVP is designed to reward time put in, and most of these folks wouldn't have it any other way. Remove the gear grind and see how many people actually PvP for the "fun or challenge". You'll see why MMO PVP is designed this way. This is entirely untrue. Skill in PVP does exist, just look at competitive Arena in WOW. That said, Skill in PVP does not exist YET in THIS game. Warzones are a terrible indicator of skill. It's all about ganking and who gets the drop on who. Even in FPS games, if you look at the way and the rules the competitive scene is set up, it is a COMPLETELY different game then your standard pug. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistrfantasy Posted January 23, 2012 Author Share Posted January 23, 2012 WoW is not really skill based at all. Success in WoW is determined by these things, in order of importance: Gear Team Composition (virtual tie with gear in some seasons) Enemy Mistakes The only reason people with the best gear are at the top of the arena ladder is because they can curb-stomp the teeth out of those who have less gear simply because of the gear disparity. Tell that to the people that play arena professionally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roak Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 you are correct I have never played wow I played ultima, swg and lots of other mmos where pvp stats weren't necessary and they had much better world pvp than tor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gryhmr Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 PVP stats are what break MMO PVP. Plain and simple it deters new people from pvping because they get ***** by people who got to 50 faster and have the stat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gryhmr Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 This is entirely untrue. Skill in PVP does exist, just look at competitive Arena in WOW. That said, Skill in PVP does not exist YET in THIS game. Warzones are a terrible indicator of skill. It's all about ganking and who gets the drop on who. Even in FPS games, if you look at the way and the rules the competitive scene is set up, it is a COMPLETELY different game then your standard pug. WOW Arena is not a full fledged Esport because its so *********** broken. So its not really a good place to stand for this argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arutassin Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 (edited) PvP should happen on a set of battleground armour that is normalized so all characters have the same respective stats. With this the game is balanced and the defining factor is win/loss is skill and teamwork. Having any gear having any impact on PvP instantly affects balance. Gear for PvE where the opponent AI. PvP needs stat-less gear for complete balancing. Players should join a BG and have all their items removed and replaced with the BG gear set that all chars have. Obv there would be light, medium and heavy but that is all. No stats on gear at all. Edited January 23, 2012 by Arutassin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistrfantasy Posted January 23, 2012 Author Share Posted January 23, 2012 WOW Arena is not a full fledged Esport because its so *********** broken. So its not really a good place to stand for this argument. While there are only a certain # of viable team setups at the highest level, it still generates money making it an esport, and comparatively to every other MMOPVP, it's definitely the most successful. Look, due to the multi-faceted nature of MMOs, you're never gonna find 100% balance w/o homogenization. Even Starcraft BW, the pinnacle of esports, is not 100% balanced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Philar Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Tell that to the people that play arena professionally. The people that Blizzard has to pay to play since no 3rd party wants their name associated with such an unbalanced mess? Guild Wars has actual tournament play that is funded through actual industry players, not through the publisher. The difference is that GW relies on Skill and WoW relies on Gear and Comp. One is PvP, the other is CvC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gryhmr Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 While there are only a certain # of viable team setups at the highest level, it still generates money making it an esport, and comparatively to every other MMOPVP, it's definitely the most successful. Look, due to the multi-faceted nature of MMOs, you're never gonna find 100% balance w/o homogenization. Even Starcraft BW, the pinnacle of esports, is not 100% balanced. The company that makes the game is the only one who makes tournaments for it and they are always a joke. which has best comp and full resilience gear. watch as everyone hits each other for ten minutes and go to sleep while watching it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistrfantasy Posted January 23, 2012 Author Share Posted January 23, 2012 The company that makes the game is the only one who makes tournaments for it and they are always a joke. which has best comp and full resilience gear. watch as everyone hits each other for ten minutes and go to sleep while watching it. Intel Exteme Masters by ESL had WOW arena. Also, it's not about who has the best gear, since in the tournament, THEY ALL HAVE THE SAME GEAR, and have access to every class and can even change their comp during a match. Lastly, I'm not saying wow arena is interesting by any means as an esport(it bores me to death too). I'm just saying it exists and MMOPVP can exist competitively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kryptorchid Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 (edited) I think most people here supporting a PVP stat never played UO/SWG/DAOC when there WAS NO PVP STAT. And do you wanna know what happened? The top 10% of the population in the same gear as others just dominated and face-rolled everybody because those people were better than the rest of the population. The whole reason why a PvP stat was not implemented in UO/SWG/DAOC was to give PVP players a progression based on skill and to prevent those hardcore raiders from dominating new PvPers based on gear. Now you might be saying, well instead of getting rolled by people in top class PVE/PVP gear, i'm getting rolled by people with top-class skill. Well atleast these people don't have twice as much health as you in PVP. It was kind of silly for someone who never pvp'd in their life, got really good through PVP experience, and then just played for the sake of playing. Edited January 23, 2012 by Kryptorchid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistrfantasy Posted January 23, 2012 Author Share Posted January 23, 2012 I think most people here supporting a PVP stat never played UO/SWG/DAOC when there WAS NO PVP STAT. And do you wanna know what happened? The top 10% of the population in the same gear as others just dominated and face-rolled everybody because those people were better than the rest of the population. The whole reason why a PvP stat was not implemented in UO/SWG/DAOC was to give PVP players a progression based on skill and to prevent those hardcore raiders from dominating new PvPers based on gear. Now you might be saying, well instead of getting rolled by people in top class PVE/PVP gear, i'm getting rolled by people with top-class skill. Well atleast these people don't have twice as much health as you in PVP. It was kind of silly for someone who never pvp'd in their life, got really good through PVP experience, and then just played for the sake of playing. I wouldn't really compare UO, SWG, DAOC to any modern MMO. UO and DAOC were relics of the past and have such a small sample size compared to modern MMOs. None of their BGs were ever instanced, so they were basically giant WZs were the best strategy is to gank. Beyond that, a lot of groundbreaking things those games did were standard even by the time WOW came out. As for SWG, never played it, but I really doubt it did anything groundbreaking either. I would just like to add "skill" can never be measured in an open world or battleground environment. There are just too many variables independent of individual player action that determine the outcome AND ganking/hit+run are always the best tactics in those situations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kryptorchid Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 I wouldn't really compare UO, SWG, DAOC to any modern MMO. UO and DAOC were relics of the past and have such a small sample size compared to modern MMOs. None of their BGs were ever instanced, so they were basically giant WZs were the best strategy is to gank. Beyond that, a lot of groundbreaking things those games did were standard even by the time WOW came out. As for SWG, never played it, but I really doubt it did anything groundbreaking either. I would just like to add "skill" can never be measured in an open world or battleground environment. There are just too many variables independent of individual player action that determine the outcome AND ganking/hit+run are always the best tactics in those situations. *woosh* As for your last statement, skill can definitely be measured in open world or battleground environments. If I wasn't skilled, then how did I kill a 5 man gank squad in UO? (Before you say "they weren't good" you just admitted to measuring skill) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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