Don't Nerf Tracer Missle/Grav rounds.....Nerf

[Desgarden]

 

Gunslinger/Sniper:Precision Ambush/Sharp aim

Aimed Shot/Ambush ignore [10/20]% of a targets armor.

 

Figure focused around a single ability, again it requires talent points to aquire.

 

.

 

...and has a 15 sec cd

[Zarthorn]

You can't be a medic and have ANY Armor Penetration, because medics don't get grav round, and use a support cell.

TL, DR? Go learn you some knowledge.

 

Yes you can, hybrid medic (26-28 points) and 15 points for Grav round using the armor pen stance over the support cells, grants you plentiful self sustainability with a spammable attack for when you are not heal-tanking.

 

I swear you are just trying to nit-pick any little thing to save the fact you should have to invest for your armor pen like everyone else.

[Zarthorn]

4%

Nice try.

 

Still 55% though isn't it which is still far and away the highest value of armor pen for not having to invest deeply for it.

[Iandayen]

Do what you want with arsenal.

 

Any merc who uses Arsenal over Pyrotech in pvp is just bad anyways.

 

PvE - a little armor pen nerf isn't going to affect our damage that much really.

[Vlaid]

Yes you can, hybrid medic (26-28 points) and 15 points for Grav round using the armor pen stance over the support cells, grants you plentiful self sustainability with a spammable attack for when you are not heal-tanking.

 

I swear you are just trying to nit-pick any little thing to save the fact you should have to invest for your armor pen like everyone else.

 

Sure. And you don't get demo round which crits for over twice as much, or really anything that makes you a theat to anyone but a bad.

'

You do put out respectable damage (when left alone) and you can heal though. It's a hybrid spec, it does what you'd expect a hybrid spec to do.

 

Don't pretend like this is the only good hybrid spec out there. If your problem is with them, start a thread about throttling specs to one main tree and a secondary tree like WoW does. but don't take it onto some random derp thread about a deep specced gunnery commando.

[chosen_silver]

Nope.

 

New attack. Sorta replaces it, but the way it should work is that charged bolts should be your filler after you debuff a target up with Grav Rounds. Then it might actually be a balanced spec.

 

No. There is zero reason to ever use charged bolts after getting grav round. Same activation time, same ammo, but grav round hits harder and keeps vortex stacked.

[cashogy]

afaik, hvg cylinder only works with weapon based attacks. so it doesnt work with any of our tech based attacks (tracer missile included there). im assuming this because that is how the other cylinders function (for instance, combustible cylinder will apply the dot on any weapon damage based attack, but nothing else).

 

if we had a bloody combat log we could actually see what the fkuc was going on in this game

[TheRealBoz]

Yes you can, hybrid medic (26-28 points) and 15 points for Grav round using the armor pen stance over the support cells, grants you plentiful self sustainability with a spammable attack for when you are not heal-tanking.

 

I swear you are just trying to nit-pick any little thing to save the fact you should have to invest for your armor pen like everyone else.

 

Oh. My. God.

You have no idea what you're talking about, do you?

[Vlaid]

No. There is zero reason to ever use charged bolts after getting grav round. Same activation time, same ammo, but grav round hits harder and keeps vortex stacked.

 

That.....is my point.

 

It shouldn't do all that AND be your main nuke. Your main nuke should be charged bolts so that you aren't just spamming grav round and seeing little loss because of it.

 

If you actually look at the tree, you'll start to notice some talents also refer to charged bolts (even the ones above grav round like curtain of fire).

 

You have to wonder....why are they there if Grav Round is supposed to completely replace Charged bolts? I don't think it is supposed to replace Charged Bolts at all. That is why I believe the spec is simply not functioning correctly.

 

Seems to me if your charged bolts have a 30% chance to trigger curtain of fire, the only possible reason for that is that Charged Bolts was intended to be the main nuke and not Grav Round. It would make the spec make a lot more sense personally.

Edited January 23, 2012 by Vlaid

[Zarthorn]

Sure. And you don't get demo round which crits for over twice as much, or really anything that makes you a theat to anyone but a bad.

'

You do put out respectable damage (when left alone) and you can heal though. It's a hybrid spec, it does what you'd expect a hybrid spec to do.

 

Don't pretend like this is the only good hybrid spec out there. If your problem is with them, start a thread about throttling specs to one main tree and a secondary tree like WoW does. but don't take it onto some random derp thread about a deep specced gunnery commando.

 

And would I have a problem if you guys had to invest deeply for your armor pen? No

 

I have a problem that your armor pen is fully availible to you from level 20 onwards, thus allowing you to hybrid spec easily and better than any other hybrid spec.

 

Again the problem is investment, you should have to invest deeply to get the big benefits of armor pen, not get a ton of armor pen and still be able to run around sustaining better than any tank ever could.

[cashogy]

That.....is my point.

 

It shouldn't do all that AND be your main nuke. Your main nuke should be charged bolts so that you aren't just spamming grav round and seeing little loss because of it.

 

charged bolts/power shot is nothing to laugh at. ive had it for 2.8-3k, and regularly around 2.5k. similar damage to tracer missile, same spamability.

 

nerf tracer missile and you will see people crying about power shot/charged bolts before you know it

[TheRealBoz]

Armor Penetration does not win fights, it isn't damage. It's a damage multiplier. Without damage, the multiplier is useless. Your hybrid 26/15 build is threatening to absolutely noone in the entire game, unless they are hilariously bad and are punching you with basic attacks and using no skills at all.

[TheRealBoz]

Furthermore, I'd like to point out that an armor penetration of 50% increases your DPS against heavy armor (IE yourself, as guardians/juggernauts use skills for defense more than armor) by less than 17%. Against lightly armored targets, this results in a whopping 9% damage increase.

[Vlaid]

And would I have a problem if you guys had to invest deeply for your armor pen? No

 

I have a problem that your armor pen is fully availible to you from level 20 onwards, thus allowing you to hybrid spec easily and better than any other hybrid spec.

 

Again the problem is investment, you should have to invest deeply to get the big benefits of armor pen, not get a ton of armor pen and still be able to run around sustaining better than any tank ever could.

 

Why is armor pen the one random passive damage increase out of the whole tree that seems to irk you so much? It's just a passive increase to damage.

 

The baseline abilities are balanced AROUND the assumption of this armor pen. I really can't understand why you've got your teeth into armor pen so bad. It'd make almost no difference if we just had a pile of +15% passive damage added onto the spec and removed armor pen completely.

 

Ohhhh....I know why you wouldn't want that. Then the spec would OBLITERATE low armor targets....and barely dent/be balanced against tank specs.

 

You really seem like you just got some random bug up your doubloons about armor pen because scoundrel/ops got nerfed so you're going after anything that might be similar.

Edited January 23, 2012 by Vlaid

[Zarthorn]

Why is armor pen the one random passive damage increase out of the whole tree that seems to irk you so much? It's just a passive increase to damage.

 

The baseline abilities are balanced AROUND the assumption of this armor pen. I really can't understand why you've got your teeth into armor pen so bad. It'd make almost no difference if we just had a pile of +15% passive damage added onto the spec and removed armor pen completely.

 

Ohhhh....I know why you wouldn't want that. Then the spec would OBLITERATE low armor targets....and barely dent/be balanced against tank specs.

 

You really seem like you just got some random bug up your doubloons about armor pen because scoundrel/ops got nerfed so you're going after anything that might be similar.

 

It's called balance, look up the word then get back to me mister heavy armor wearing does stupid damage with no investment class.

[TheRealBoz]

Ooooh, someone is bitter.

[MegaBubble]

Even if you did have a point - and I'm not saying you did - you buried it beneath exaggerated "facts" and a juvenile presentation.

 

You got nerfed. So did my level 50 Smuggler. Adapt your playstyle according to the new stats and adjust your approach as needed. As opposed to coming on the forums and doing the equivalent of pointing your fingers at other classes and yelling, "but they do it too!!". Nerfs are part of the game - stick around long enough and everybody'll get their turn with the nerf bat.

[Duymon]

Commando / Mercs have to stand there and spam you 5 freaking Times...while standing Still to get that Armor Pen. That's a minimum of 8-10 Seconds (accounting for lag) of You, being in Range, in LOS, and them not being interrupted. THEN, if they're lucky, you don't deflect their high-impact Bolt / rail shot (regular weapon damage).

 

Zero investment? They have to spec to get the tracer missile / grav round in the 1st place. And it doesn't get good until they also go up two trees to get the *dodgeable/deflectable* impact bolt / rail shot buff. They have to invest the full 31 pts to get the final tier talent.

 

Aside from the guardian / jugg, the Ops/Smug and shadow / *** get that armor debuff right off the bat and in melee range. Oh, they also get it from stealth.

 

You can see Mr. Commando / Merc walking up to you and start his spam rotation from a mile away.

 

Get a commando/merc in Melee range and they DIE.

 

Get a meleer out of melee range and they DIE.

 

Is it that hard to understand?

 

BTW I play a Vanguard. It's fun killing mercs , commandos.

 

I see them tracer, Storm to interrupt and get in melee range.

They try another round, Riot strike to interrupt.

They CC me with cryo / shock to get distance, Harpoon to get them back in melee range. The movement cause by harpoon is yet another interrupt.

By that time Riot strike is up...again for another interrupt.

They use their AOE knockback, Storm Timer is back up again.

 

As you can see, things don't go well for commando / merc when somebody is in their face.

 

However, shadows and Scoundrels? ALL their DPS is with them even when on the move.

 

Ever think of that?

Edited January 23, 2012 by Duymon

[crrypto]

l2interrupt.

 

That is all.

 

Go pyro or go home...

[Zarthorn]

Even if you did have a point - and I'm not saying you did - you buried it beneath exaggerated "facts" and a juvenile presentation.

 

You got nerfed. So did my level 50 Smuggler. Adapt your playstyle according to the new stats and adjust your approach as needed. As opposed to coming on the forums and doing the equivalent of pointing your fingers at other classes and yelling, "but they do it too!!". Nerfs are part of the game - stick around long enough and everybody'll get their turn with the nerf bat.

 

Call it what you will but the fact still stands that one class is getting there 6 seconds of armor pen nerfed because Bioware feels it's too much on a 31 point talent, yet commandos and mercs whom get a consistent and higher figure of armor pen for minimal investment (15 points for grav round/tracer missle) go untouched.

 

I got the figure wrong by what? 5%? still doesn't change the fact that no other class can achieve the figure of consistent armor pen throughout there entire damage rotation that anyone else can get does it?

 

I know you guys are going to sit here, defend with every tiny little shred of ground and every single fact you can throw to try and stop Bioware from bringing you down to the same playing field as everyone else, but you know who else tried defending like that?

 

Warhammer:

 

Bright Wizards (bomb squads and playing with fire)

Choppas (spamming lottsa choppin')

Warrior Priests (healing entire raids single handedly)

Sorcerors (insta-kill dots)

Witch Elves (they did get overnerfed, noone denies that)

 

World of Warcraft:

 

Hunters (the ******** noob era)

Warlocks (the deathcoil era)

Rogues (the stunlock era)

Warriors (the Mortal strike 50 = Godmode era)

Mages (the POM + Pyroblast 3 minute mage era)

 

Star Wars Galaxies:

 

Bounty Hunter (knockdown spam and eyeshot to death)

Commando (flamethrower killing everything in 3 seconds)

Teras Kasi Master (dizzy + knockdown spam)

Combat Medic (poison nades killing entire raids within mere seconds)

 

Dark Age of Camelot:

 

Warlock (insta-kill with preloaded nukes)

Bone Dancer (pet outdamaging damage classes)

Wizard (ground targeted fireball of raid killing doom)

Bainshee (melt entire raids in 3 spells)

Cleric (smite spec outdamaging everything else, got overnerfed)

 

Rift:

 

Warrior (kill anyone in 3 hits. overnerfed)

Pyro (one shot CC immune king)

Warlock (damage shield of kill yourself)

 

Why do these nerf patterns happen and why do some of them end up being overnerfs?

 

Because of this denial attitude that seems to repeat itself over and over again.

 

Did I deny that the Scoundrel was overpowered at any point? No I did not, in fact as a Scoundrel player I was for it getting a 20-30% damage reduction on shoot first, because unlike most of you, I believe in a fair balanced playing field (go and check the main thread about the scoundrel/ops nerf call thread, you'll see I was for it)

 

However Bioware are overnerfing it because of the denial attitude, reducing the armor pen by such a hefty amount on Flechette Round/Toxic blade hurts the class in PvE and drops it down the viability list heftily.

 

So why am I posting about commandos/mercs and a staunch believer that the armor pen you get is too much?

 

Quite simple really, because it's not balanced and definatley not justified for a heavy armor class to have more damage capabilties than classes that are entirely designed to deal damage and damage only when you have optional healing (this is in reference to the Sniper/Gunslinger and Sentinel/Marauder who can do nothing else but dps)

 

So how can we solve this?

 

We could of course buff those classes, definatley needed for sent/mara since there damage is pretty lackluster outside of there cooldown reliance and expertise, but the sniper/gunslinger have plenty of damage so that wouldn't solve the problem, only create a new one.

 

So the only justification we have is to balance the commando/merc by reducing some of there effectivity to even the playing field.

 

I appologise for seeming quite annoyed and rant filled earlier in the post, but as you can imagine, over 10 years of mmo experience and frankly, I'm getting a little shopworn when it comes to seeing the same old denial responses over and over again when it's clear something is not right!

Edited January 23, 2012 by Zarthorn

[carbocat]

Armor Piercing Cell and High Velocity Gas Cylinder!

 

Why do you ask?

 

35% consistent armor pen which when stacked with Tracer missle and Grav rounds secondary effect builds up to 60% armor penetration!

 

Far and away the highest consistent figure of armor pen in the entire game.

 

And lest we forget, Bioware are nerfing Flechette Round and Acid Blade, both 31 point talents that grant 50% armor pen (and the only armor pen that a Scoundrel/Ops gets) for 6 seconds down to 30% for 6 seconds because they think 50% armor pen for 6 seconds is too much.....

 

So again, I ask how is 35% consistent armor pen on a heavy armor wearing class that can consistently stack to 60% armor pen fair? (not forgetting here, you have to invest absolutely nothing for that armor pen vs a 31 talent point)

 

Now you have your answer and the true problem behind Grav/Tracer spam.

 

why can they have so much armor pen, and opratives got nerfed to 30%???

[TheRealBoz]

*words*

 

Why does any class get anything unique? Why does the guy with armor penetration not get a single interrupt in his arsenal? Why do Jedi Knights have Force Leap for free? Why do Shadows and Scoundrels have stealth?

I can't have any of that. I don't even have the option to invest perks for that.

Are you going to claim that leap is an integral part of being a melee class, because you need to ensure that you're in range? Why doesn't the Trooper have a good, mid-CD snare to ensure he's in range of a target, and not be LoSed or charged?

[leemajors]

Ah, the joys of class strife.

 

But honestly, as a Merc I expect that's where they will attempt to nerf us, which will be fine once they fix the bug with Rail Shot not getting the extra armor debuff from Tracer Missiles. Makes everything but our burst shot hit a little weaker making us actually burst harder for a little less sustained. Sounds fair to me. Knock off say 10%? Dunno what BW's data looks like.

 

Honestly it's probably fine as is but I assume once they fix Rail Shot it will be too much. People seem to be more irritated at the fact that Mercs/Gunnerys can use one button so often and succeed, but really they're just like most ranged dps and can do tons of damage if nobody's on them. Stick a melee on said M/G and watch them run like hell due to the cast time.

[Vlaid]

It's called balance, look up the word then get back to me mister heavy armor wearing does stupid damage with no investment class.

 

So I beat you with facts and you retort with some random statement of balance?

 

I think we know we're done here. There's no reason Armor Piercing Cell by itself, or even armor pentration in general at high levels should be nerfed. For some reason any class having a high level of passive armor pen is a sin to you, despite them being balanced around the always on, passive Armor Pen.

 

I find it ironic that if they DID nerf armor piercing cell, they would have to then go in and buff the BASELINE damage of those same abilities. THe net result would be that people that are wearing medium/light armor would get hit even HARDER after the "nerf" you seem to want so bad.

[SamWinchest]

Armor Piercing Cell and High Velocity Gas Cylinder!

 

Why do you ask?

 

35% consistent armor pen which when stacked with Tracer missle and Grav rounds secondary effect builds up to 60% armor penetration!

 

Far and away the highest consistent figure of armor pen in the entire game.

 

And lest we forget, Bioware are nerfing Flechette Round and Acid Blade, both 31 point talents that grant 50% armor pen (and the only armor pen that a Scoundrel/Ops gets) for 6 seconds down to 30% for 6 seconds because they think 50% armor pen for 6 seconds is too much.....

 

So again, I ask how is 35% consistent armor pen on a heavy armor wearing class that can consistently stack to 60% armor pen fair? (not forgetting here, you have to invest absolutely nothing for that armor pen vs a 31 talent point)

 

Now you have your answer and the true problem behind Grav/Tracer spam.

 

just lol