Rainsfords Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Let's see if this is a forum where I can post something constructive and not have it instantly locked: I'm a valor rank 60+ Op on the Twin Spears, and play the class well enough where I get a few hate messages every game. I've noticed that Operative is a pretty strong DPS class, but that was the point. We don't do anything else unless we spec deep into medicine, and unlike Assassins we can't taunt/guard on command. We can tear apart low hp/undergeared players, but struggle on geared/competent players. If our first few hits don't do serious damage, we can't kill anything. Here are my thoughts on how this could be fixed: Acid Blade shouldn't do any damage, but should instead apply an effect to the target that increases their damage taken. The fact that it gives the Operative an armor pen buff makes no sense, and I would imagine that the only reason why it doesn't apply a -armor debuff is because BH already does that. So why not give it a blanket +20% damage taken for 6 seconds effect? That reduces our burst damage (Acid Blade, especially when it crits, hit's VERY hard) while at the same time making us very group friendly. It's more accurate to the roll of an operative as a "commando" is is spotting and tagging enemies. Lethality, as it stands now, is very lackluster. I respecced into it (with enough points to get Weakening Blast) and it's awkward, energy consuming and hard to execute. The first problem is energy. Stim Boost from Lethality and Concealment will restore the same amount over an extended period, but the Lethality version eats up more TA's because it needs to be recast more often. The fix for this is simple: Switch the talents so the Concealment Stim Boost restores more energy instantly but needs to be cast more often, and the Lethality one stays up longer and ticks harder. The other problem Lethality runs into is how hard it is to get TA's in the first place. Having every Lethality centric skill be 10m, but having the only way to build TA out of stealth be Shiv, doesn't synergize at all. The easy fix to this would be to have poison effects that crit have a chance to proc a TA, similar to how Hots work in the medicine tree. With this, you could actually put out more Cullings instead of the one or two every ten seconds you can use now. As for it being a poison centric tree, having only one extra poison doesn't make a whole lot of sense. The added fact that most of the talents in the tree seem to be ones that belong in a more PvP centeric tree like Concealment make it even more useless. A quick fix would be to move Acid Blade and it's heavy, short duration poison into the Lethality tree while making the corrosive dart effect be a talent that causes Frag Grenade to apply the poison. The talents could be made up for by putting some of the PvP ones (like a shorter Debilitate CD) into concealment. These changes, overall, would do a few things. It would make Concealment less bursty while not destroying its DPS while at the same time making it a very powerful spec to have on a team. The lethality changes would make it a very powerful PvE spec that could keep up with Sorcs and BH's while not dumbing it down. The high dps would be dependent on you keeping up your poisons and intelligently managing your energy. The fact that DoTs can be easily cleansed in pvp would keep the tree focused on pve without turning it into something that's overpowered in pvp. I understand that changes to Lethality present a problem, since it's a "shared" tree, but part of the issue is the fact that there are shared trees at all. Sniper's and Operatives are completely different classes, and the fact that there is a tree that they are supposed to "split" doesn't make a whole lot of sense. I know it was a lot, but thanks for reading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qIrwuMfh Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 a) http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=222595 b) Your suggested chances won't happen. They don't fit in their overall class design. Using the statement 'less bursty' for a spec that is designed to punch as hard as possible is worth a facepalm. At least the concealment tree should never be seen as something less than a pvp oriented surgical tool for key targets. Even if its a burst tree, people need to learn to fight longer than 5 seconds. Meaning that you have to utilize movement, your ranged capability and every other ability at your disposal. Yes, i'm talking about the time frame after the first hard punch on your target, which certainly won't die when playing versus bm equipped and skillwise decent players. Despite this, you have to learn when to let go a target and move on - when you realize you can't even do decent damage to a sorc who is outhealing you or whatever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rainsfords Posted January 23, 2012 Author Share Posted January 23, 2012 Firstly, going by that post in the PvP forums, your server must not have a lot of 50 premades in Warzones. As i explained, we are a class that can roflstomp pugs all day, but is very sub-par in an organized, group enviorment. The nerf puts us in a place where we need to play very well to be useful in pugs but are now useless in any type of organized, pre-made play. For the second point, Bioware is obviously nerfing our burst. It's going to happen, so we might as well just deal. And honestly, I don't mind that too much. While I never find myself getting bursted by other Ops, I can understand why it might be frustrating. What my proposed change does is lower our burst so we can't blow someone up before our Stealth is off CD while keeping out sustained at about the same level while making use very dangerous in a group situation where our target becomes a "target of opportunity" for the rest of our team. The whiners no longer have an Op faceplanting them and rolling over them as often while the class isn't broken and we become an important member of the team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrusaderRO Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 a) http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=222595 b) Your suggested chances won't happen. They don't fit in their overall class design. Using the statement 'less bursty' for a spec that is designed to punch as hard as possible is worth a facepalm. At least the concealment tree should never be seen as something less than a pvp oriented surgical tool for key targets. Even if its a burst tree, people need to learn to fight longer than 5 seconds. Meaning that you have to utilize movement, your ranged capability and every other ability at your disposal. Yes, i'm talking about the time frame after the first hard punch on your target, which certainly won't die when playing versus bm equipped and skillwise decent players. Despite this, you have to learn when to let go a target and move on - when you realize you can't even do decent damage to a sorc who is outhealing you or whatever. You didn't even read the whole OP it seems or you have problems with reading comprehension Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightfalll Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 I didnt read the post either...... I allready know what its about...Either his lol suggestions on how to 'fix' op, or why it isnt a good idea with very little sound support/logic... Theres too many of these threads from angry OPs, this is just another......Your nerf will happen. DEAL WITH IT /thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inarai Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Theres too many of these threads from angry OPs, this is just another......Your nerf will happen. Well, maybe. If it does, guess what - it's based off of numbers, not player whining. They're making their changes (unlike some others, who don't have the support in place to do so) based not on perceptions but based on reality. They can see the numbers Operatives are getting, and they know what those numbers are supposed to be. When they're out of line, they can change things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Achromatis Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 (edited) So why not give it a blanket +20% damage taken for 6 seconds effect? I dont know about the rest of it but I really like that idea, it makes burst far more tactical and group dependent. Might want a longer CD on it though and make it a shorter duration(1-2s), just to prevent abuse in conjunction with "vanish". Edit: And I hate to say it but "VR: 60+" doesnt really mean anything. Ive got level 4 Prestige in Blops but Im still pretty terrible, lol. All it means is that you play lots, not that you play skillfully(not saying youre not skilled either). Edited January 23, 2012 by Achromatis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rainsfords Posted January 23, 2012 Author Share Posted January 23, 2012 I didnt read the post either...... I allready know what its about...Either his lol suggestions on how to 'fix' op, or why it isnt a good idea with very little sound support/logic... Theres too many of these threads from angry OPs, this is just another......Your nerf will happen. DEAL WITH IT /thread I'm going to guess that you play a Madness sorc. I dont know about the rest of it but I really like that idea, it makes burst far more tactical and group dependent. Might want a longer CD on it though and make it a shorter duration(1-2s), just to prevent abuse in conjunction with "vanish". Edit: And I hate to say it but "VR: 60+" doesnt really mean anything. Ive got level 4 Prestige in Blops but Im still pretty terrible, lol. All it means is that you play lots, not that you play skillfully(not saying youre not skilled either). What I was getting at with it is you're still going to take less sustained damage from the Operative alone even if you can keep the +damage taken debuff up 8/10 seconds like you can with Acid Blade now. People, like the sorc above, are complaining because they are getting facerolled in the corner of the map by their hard counter. I honestly don't think there needs to be a change, as it's mostly a fact of people trying to combat a geared, skilled operative by clicking, but that's another story. BW is caving and listening to them, so the idea behind proposed changes like this are to keep it where an Operative opening on you is still deadly, but they are also going to need team support to really shine. And it just so happens that I am the most well-played Op on the server (especially if the hate/fan messages I get are any indication). Outside of that, Valor 60 means that you have a lot of experience in Warzones. There's plenty of posts on here of the guy who plays 1 WZ a day where he only goes up against pugs, but being high valor means you're playing against premades too, so you have a lot more experience with the class and where it shines and doesn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeratulz Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 I didnt read the post either...... I allready know what its about...Either his lol suggestions on how to 'fix' op, or why it isnt a good idea with very little sound support/logic... Theres too many of these threads from angry OPs, this is just another......Your nerf will happen. DEAL WITH IT /thread Spoken like a true bad. Pro Operatives are still going to push your sh** in bro and you're still going to QQ. You're bad, Deal with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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