derekreevs Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Rollin a shadow right now. He is level 13. Haven't tanked anything yet, not that it would matter at level 13 anyways. But I would like to know yall's opinion on how shadow tanks are doing, and if I am wasting my time, or if I am making a good investment. How do they compare to Vanguards and Guardians? Thanks muchos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arbegla Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Rollin a shadow right now. He is level 13. Haven't tanked anything yet, not that it would matter at level 13 anyways. But I would like to know yall's opinion on how shadow tanks are doing, and if I am wasting my time, or if I am making a good investment. How do they compare to Vanguards and Guardians? Thanks muchos Overall, Shadow tanks seem to have better single target DPS (and thus better threat generation) then vanguards and guardians (just due to higher burst potential, and just sheer damage values). For single target tanking, with Kinetic Ward up, Shadows have slightly higher Shield chances, which makes them very durable for single target tanking. Almost all of their self healing scales with max HP (only thing that doesn't is Combat Technique) which allows them to be able to take a hit, and the shortly heal it back up themselves. While the DR (damage resistance) numbers from armor are slightly lower, Shadows do have plenty of self healing to more then make up for it. Depending on who you ask, Shadows are either the worst AoE tanks ever, or on par with Guardian and Vanguards (I'd honestly rank Vanuguards the best at AoE tanking, Shadows second best, and Guardians worst, just based on sheer AoE damage in powers, and how often they can be used) Now because Shadow tanks rely on Kinetic Ward so much, their AoE tanking 'durability' is a little lacking, as your main 'cool down' to help you out isn't available as often as for single target tanking, but if you use your other cool downs as well, and kite a little, it isn't that big of a deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spencerbravo Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 I'm loving mine. Great single target tanking and for questing i use Nadia and blast through quests. But as Arb said, the AoE tanking isn't that good. Kinetic Ward falls much too easily on multiple mobs. But for questing and PvP i find it quite good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitru Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 How do they compare to Vanguards and Guardians? VGs are the de facto best tanks atm: they have the best mitigation (I has math), the most averaged incoming damage (since they have the best outright DR as well as highest shield/absorb contribution), best damage (they achieve the same threat without *any* high threat mods), best AoE damage (Mortar Volley, Pulse Cannon, Sticky Grenade, Explosive Surge), and best utility (30m range, charge *and* pull). There isn't even a contest. As it stands, VGs demolish all of the other tanks in all relevant categories. Guards are the middle tanks. If you're not an idiot, you will have excellent AoE threat (talented Force Sweep does more damage than all of a Shadows AoEs combined and is on a 12 sec CD and you also have Cyclone Slash, which costs comparatively less than Whirling Blow and generates *more* damage and threat while being just as spammable), survivability only moderately lower than a VGs, spikier incoming damage than VGs (thanks to a heavy reliance on Defense), and excellent ST damage. They're moderately worse than VGs in every category with the possible exception of ST threat gen, which they do remarkably well. Shadows are the ST focused tanks, though, even though we are ST focused, we are not appreciably better at ST tanking compared to the other tanks. Our survivability is roughly on par with Guards and VGs for single target fights and noticeably *worse* for AoE damage (since KW vanishes in a puff of smoke for AoE). We have the worst AoE threat, insofar as we have to burn much more of our resources (animation time *and* Force) to achieve *less* AoE threat than the other tanks can. We're also the most active tanks, since we have to watch interwoven procs while the other tanks are largely singularly focused on effects as well as having to constantly watch and reapply KW. In addition, we have very *specific* CDs that force use to have more knowledge of the fight in question in order to effectively use the tools we have available. In addition, while we have a pull, we don't have a charge and instead have Force Speed, which, while it fulfills *some* of the same functionality as the charges (Storm, Force Leap), is still noticeably worse thanks to an inferior recharge time (20 secs talented compared to 12 secs by default) and longer time consumption (Force Speed takes the full 2 seconds to cover the same distance that the charges cover in a single GCD). Overall, Shadows are the weakest tanks, numerically, but also the most skill dependent in order to achieve effectiveness. Hopefully, the developers will address the numerical inferiority we currently suffer from so that we can finally be better described as "the skill based tank" rather than "the skill based tank that you have to be an amazing player at just to break even with the much more simple tanks". Personally, I love Shadows and have no plans to respec, but I'm cogent of the abilities and capabilities of them, especially as they compare to the other tanks. Hopefully, the developers are similarly cogent of them and plan of actually addressing the discrepancies between them, especially since VGs are so *obviously* the best option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elyx Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 i would also like to add, that to date, based on what I've seen, Shadow tanks can tank anything in the game. the differences describe so well by Kitru above are mechanical absolutes, and do not define viability from the perspective of current content. Skill is still very much a critical part of the roundup as well...and if things continue to go as they are eventually shadows may fall behind. but Bio has plenty of time and/or space to make those changes. I do not believe (Kitru and the others can correct if I'm wrong) that there is any solid evidence as of yet that a team should take one over the other. But there will always be those that do.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derekreevs Posted January 23, 2012 Author Share Posted January 23, 2012 so in conclusion if I want to be the most effective tank all around, my best bet would be a VG? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elyx Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 (edited) so in conclusion if I want to be the most effective tank all around, my best bet would be a VG? Good question. If all 3 can tank anything in the game right now, is it worth it to you to play a VG solely so you can say you play the best tank? Play it because you enjoy how it feels, not because its the best in an environment where it doesn't necessarily perform any better then the others. if you enjoy the playstyle of the VG, play it. If you enjoy your shadow, play it. I doubt any current endgame Shadows have any issues with tanking right now. Trust me, you don't want to play the "whats better" game. Every MMO I have played in since the dawn of time has and WILL change class balance on a regular basis. Your hot ticket today will be tomorrows wet noodle. So play what you enjoy...none of the 3 current tank classes cannot tank endgame atm. none of them are so broke that you cannot get a tank job. Personally, I don't enjoy how the VG Plays. having a small rifle to tank with, when the Commando (a.k.a heal spec) carries around a big huge cannon? I feel very smallified on my VG. Playstyle isn't my thing too (though i really like the PT bounty hunter, the mirror on the Dark side....go figure) However, I love how my shadow plays. this motivates me to do far better simply because I enjoy it. play what you enjoy. Edited January 23, 2012 by Elyx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arbegla Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 (edited) Guards are the middle tanks. If you're not an idiot, you will have excellent AoE threat (talented Force Sweep does more damage than all of a Shadows AoEs combined and is on a 12 sec CD and you also have Cyclone Slash, which costs comparatively less than Whirling Blow and generates *more* damage and threat while being just as spammable) Lets actually compare Guardian AoE to Shadow AoE for a second.. Guardian Force Sweep is a PBAoE(point blank Area of effect) on a 15 second cool down base, that has a 1.35 coefficient base, and costs 3 focus. Force Sweep is made better by Swelling Winds, Dust Storm, Pacification, and Courage Which when combined, increases is damage by 45%, lowers its cooldown by 3 seconds, allows it to apply an accuracy debuffs for 18 seconds, and become free after you triple stack Courage. Cyclone Slash is a Melee Cone (think Cleave) with no cool down, but also costs 3 Focus to use, which requires a build up time, and has a base coefficient of .88. It has a target cap of 5, and only affects mobs in front of you. Cyclone Slash is made better by Pacification, which increases its damage by 15%. Shadow Force Breach is a TAoE (targetted AoE, centered on the target of the ability) on a 15 second cooldown, for Combat Techinque (your tank stance) it has a base coefficent of .74, and also reduces the enemies Accuracy (thus increasing your defense) by 5%. The debuff last 18 seconds, and the ability costs 20 force to use and has a target cap of 5. Force Breach is made better by Force Break which increases its damage by 15%. Slow time is a TAoE on a 7.5 seconds cooldown, it costs 30 force, and has a 1.18 base coefficient. It also reduces incoming damage by 5% (thus increasing your overall Damage resistnace to all damage types) and slows the targets by 30%. The debuff lasts 15 seconds, and has a target cap of 5. Slow time is also made better by Force Break which increases its damage by 30%. Whirling Blow is a PBAoE with no cooldown, no target cap, and costs 40 force. It has a base coefficient of .71. Whirling Blow is made better by Applied Force which increases its damage by 6%. In conclusion, while the Guardian's attacks may hit harder, the Shadows hit more often (due to maintaining 2 AoEs at all times for their debuffs values if nothing else) and has a spammable AOE power that does more damage then Force Sweep when you consider a 3:1 ratio, which is accurate because Whirling Blow has no cooldown, and you should be able to use it 3 times (or even more) within the 12 seconds that Force Sweep is on cooldown. Also, while Whirling blow is expensive at 40 force, when the base force regeneration of 10.4, over a 12 second time frame, you are regenerating 124.8 force, so you can use 3 Whirling blows, and actually end up still gaining 4.8 force, without considering DBSD at all (which restores 2 force everytime you parry, deflect or shield an attack, every 1.5 seconds) So I'm not seeing how Shadow Tanks are having AOE damage, and thus threat, issues unless they just aren't using Whirling Blow at all. Edited January 23, 2012 by Arbegla Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitru Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Play it because you enjoy how it feels, not because its the best in an environment where it doesn't necessarily perform any better then the others. if you enjoy the playstyle of the VG, play it. If you enjoy your shadow, play it. I doubt any current endgame Shadows have any issues with tanking right now. While you'll hear me talking about quantification and analyses of the various tank classes all over the place, I definitely agree with this. It's why I still play a Shadow even though I know it's the worst out there: the playstyle just *agrees* with me, and I enjoy it *immensely*. I wouldn't switch to another tank unless the difference was so large that Shadows were completely redundant. Thankfully, it's not, so I can continue to play the tank that I enjoy so much. The only reason I point out the differences in the tanks are so that, hopefully, the devs can go out and fix the discrepancies and so that people can make well-informed decisions about their class choices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kckkryptonite Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 (edited) Shadow Tanks have great DPS, I think this is one of the reasons they're popular on my server; they help A LOT against the enrage timer - especially for carrying fresh 50s. Keeping threat has never been an issue for me and playing a Shadow Tank is really not that hard; however, it's true we are weaker in the AoE tanking dpt. I don't see the Kin tree getting buffed anytime soon (though I wouldn't mind it!), it's simply amazing for PvP and PvE. Edited January 23, 2012 by kckkryptonite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Korzald Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Playing both a vanguard and a shadow. One area the shadow seems to out shine the other classes at is off tanking. When your not needed to off tank your dps is way above a van or guard without having to change a ton of gear to get that dps. Just something to keep in mind for shadow tanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RGMetal Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 (edited) Playing both a vanguard and a shadow. One area the shadow seems to out shine the other classes at is off tanking. When your not needed to off tank your dps is way above a van or guard without having to change a ton of gear to get that dps. Just something to keep in mind for shadow tanks. This. I play my Shadow as a tank solo, or as a tank or off-tank/DPS in groups. Like a pre-50 Ranger in EQ1(lol). The utility and DPS is high enough in the tank tree, and you can save the healer's *** if it comes to it. Edited January 23, 2012 by RGMetal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makk Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 For those of you that sometimes play the DPS role when not needed to tank/off-tank.. what gear swapping do you do for that and what else do you do (from a gameplay standpoint) such that you are dishing out DPS but not taking aggro (given your built in threat enhancements)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theMeldo Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 (edited) in response to above post: i've not done it but i would stack power and surge for fatty acc. projects and use force technique even with the talented project threat increase you should still be causing less than the tank (and specced dps) Edited January 23, 2012 by theMeldo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dyinn Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Ever seen how it Boeing cockpit looks from inside? Well.. thats how Shadow toolbar looks like at level 50. And you have to press all those little buttons periodicly if you want to be succesfull Tank with no sensible customization of layout whatsoever. I've actualy bought Razer Nostromo + Naga combo to handle it. Shadow Tank is for people who needs a challange. boeing_757_cockpit-20050.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyfy Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Ever seen how it Boeing cockpit looks from inside? Well.. thats how Shadow toolbar looks like at level 50. And you have to press all those little buttons periodicly if you want to be succesfull Tank with no sensible customization of layout whatsoever. I've actualy bought Razer Nostromo + Naga combo to handle it. Shadow Tank is for people who needs a challange. boeing_757_cockpit-20050.jpg Same thing with the Assassin. Though so far I have managed to make it work with a good ole G7 Logitech. Although it has seriously make me consider getting the naga just because Of that. I do already have the Nostromo though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RGMetal Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 (edited) After playing a Guardian to 50(which has skill bloat to spare), I bought a Logitech G13. No issues with my Shadow. LOL For DPS: I'm only in the 30s, I have a ton of power stacked on my gear. I usually swap out the shield for a willpower focus, turn on force tech, and just go at it. Edited January 23, 2012 by RGMetal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonianJedi Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Ever seen how it Boeing cockpit looks from inside? Well.. thats how Shadow toolbar looks like at level 50. And you have to press all those little buttons periodicly if you want to be succesfull Tank with no sensible customization of layout whatsoever. I've actualy bought Razer Nostromo + Naga combo to handle it. Shadow Tank is for people who needs a challange. boeing_757_cockpit-20050.jpg I only laugh because this is so true. I have four bars on my screen with maybe 3 open slots and one or two that I change depending on if I'm in PvE or PvP. I know it is bad when I'm binding my tool bars with shift or control + mouse buttons 4 & 5 >< (I use a Naga Razor left handed version...as I'm left handed. There aren't many options for lefties when it comes to gaming peripherals.) Regardless, I'd like to add that the kinetic shadow has been the love of my gaming life. It has its issues, like any other class. But as several others have already said, it just "feels" like the right class when I play it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitru Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Shadow Tank is for people who needs a challange. I keep hearing about people that require heavy use of peripherals to play Shadow well and I have to wonder exactly how dextrous I have to be to perform well as a Shadow tank with a pretty standard mouse than only has 2 buttons on the side (and, honestly, I could just as easily go with the scroll-up and scroll-down buttons on my mouse which is pretty much what any standard mouse). Apparently I overload my left hand (I actually use 1-8 while moving with WASD), but I've just gotten used to it. I do definitely find it to be a much more manually interesting playstyle since you really do have to click more buttons regularly than the other tanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dyinn Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 (edited) I actually use 1-8 while moving with WASD Well there are people... and there are piano players Edited January 23, 2012 by Dyinn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitru Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Well there are people... and there are piano players When I was taking piano lessons in my teens, my piano teacher pointed out that I was the only short person (under 5'6") she had ever met that could play an octave. Though I never really went anywhere with the piano, my massive handspan probably has some effect upon my ability to play without complex peripherals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redderic Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 i have both a tank set and a dps set. i took every mod out of the champion survivor set and put it in oranges so now i have a fantastic tank set and my survivor set is full of dps mods. right now when i have my dps set equipped im sitting on 29% crit chance which feels more like 90% since i seem to crit every attack.i have 75% surge rating so my crits hit on average 3-4k pvp and 4-6k pve.im sitting on about 600-800 base dmg.all in all the kinetic tree has fantastic dps and is quite easy to tank with. multiple aoes, many different forms of cc im pretty sure its 4.the ability to stealth (please dont forget to actually use it people.)many debuffs not to mention dont we also have the highest internal resistance of all? i find having balance for dpsing is fantastic while tanking with infil is great for having fantastic force regen from stealth. pop stealth get in the middle of a group and unload we have about 6 seconds of nonstop spamming abilities which builds up so much aoe threat its not funny. in addition to the above if playing with an off tank we can force cloak to wipe the threat from us and let the off tank take over giving us time to heal up in boss fights which helps tremendously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Korzald Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 The single biggest piece of gear to change out is the focus for the shield. This should be the first thing any dual player gets. Power helps in both tanking and dps modes. It helps as you hold aggro with higher hits. Shadow abilities that say they are high threat do not use when your dps otherwise all other abilities are fair game. Just don't have tanking stance turned on. I have found better returns with higher +surge we have a lot of built in +crit but some +crit will happen just getting the +surge stuff. The more I have played my shadow the more I want to retire my vanguard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoundOfDeath Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 (edited) I agree that there are a lot of keybindings you need to use as as a shadow tank. I have Q, E, R, F, V, C, X, Tab, 1, 2, 3, 4, some shift combinations, and mouse button 5 all bound to stuff. Ideally one of these days I want to change my movement keys to something like RDFG instead of WASD because it gives you so many more options for keybindings. If anyone's curious to see my keybindings here they are: http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/594/screenshot2012012523130.jpg/ Edited January 26, 2012 by SoundOfDeath Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordXalas Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 made a thread in the suggestion box in hopes to get kinetic/dark ward fixed. http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=231811 feel free to say your piece to in hopes in getting this little "buff" fixed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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