Make Cover OPTIONAL-Why it SUCKS FOR PVP

[ppzheng]

Cover is broken in PvP. You have to wait an extra 0.5 to 1 second after casting cover before using an ability. Otherwise, your ability will show the casting animation but is not actually triggered, resulting in even more dead time.

 

People who don't use keybinds or don't use abilities very fast won't really notice this problem. If you've never experienced this problem, I ask you to try this experiment yourself - hit cover and immediately attempt to cast Snipe. You will notice that your Snipe animation and cast bar is progressing as normal, but Snipe will not go off.

 

This may not seem like a huge deal to most people, but an extra 0.5-1 second of waiting before using any ability that requires cover (such as cover pulse) in a PvP situation is extremely detrimental to a class whose success depends on the successful use of CC's to position themselves and opponents.

[Miragez]

It seems we'll have to be content with rolling with a large group and being a turret... maybe it'll be a little better with the UI patch. I, for one, can't do anything in PVP because the UI locks up 70 percent of the time.

[TrueDND]

If you've never experienced this problem, I ask you to try this experiment yourself - hit cover and immediately attempt to cast Snipe. You will notice that your Snipe animation and cast bar is progressing as normal, but Snipe will not go off.

 

I have actually tested this. This is an ability lag issue that the Devs have already recognized and are working on fixing, so this is completely valid. Just wanted to quickly mention this, even though that is me essentially going off-topic.

[Gadzooks]

Cover needs to be worth it. Right now, its not.

 

I want to use cover, but the only reason I do is due to the fact that the game FORCES me to use it.

 

Cover should be something a sniper WANTS to use, not just FORCED to.

 

Things they could do that would make cover desirable to use:

 

- ALL attacks from cover are 20% more effective (damage and range)

- reduced chance to be hit when in cover from ALL attacks, not just ranged bullets

- Increased accuracy while in cover (easier to hit things crouched than running around)

- +25 energy for entering cover (only can happen once every 15 seconds or similar)

- Attacks made in cover cost a % less energy.

 

Now, all of these combined arent necessary, they are just SOME examples of what they COULD do to make cover something people WANT to use, rather than just HAVE to use.

 

IMO, ALL sniper attacks should be usable outside of cover, cover should simply make these attacks so much more desirable when IN cover.

 

Cover, in its current state, isnt a cool desirable mechanic. Its a hinderance. IE: not fun. Bioware: Make cover more desirable.

 

 

 

on a side note:

 

Entrench: This is a very half hearted ability. It really is only good for ranged battles. Melee only ever CCs you to keep you from running away, and if you entrech, YOU ARENT MOVING ANYWAY, so they just sit chop away at you anyway. Plus, entrench seems sorta broken right now. All too often vs a ranged enemy, their attacks will STILL knock me OUT of cover, or stun me, despite having entrench up. If thats working as intended, then this ability is even more useless. I know that CC effects from raid bosses ignore entrench. Try the 2nd to lass boss fight in EV, and watch how often you get knocked out of cover.

Edited January 23, 2012 by Gadzooks

[JethiAgnst]

Yeah Lethality is good for pvp, except for any team with a dispeller who knows how to take off your 12 sec cd dot and corrsoive dart completely nullifies your damage.

 

You could dispell every one of a Warlock's dots in World of Warcraft as a Paladin/Shaman. That certainly didnt keep people from playing the class, because ONCE ( I can use caps also ) in every blue moon, someone would actually be smart enough in a BG to cast dispell. Also, in Arena, you'd be lucky if you had enough down time to cleanse yourself of a Warlock's DoTs. This game isnt World of Warcraft, and im sure everyone is tired of hearing about it, but you have to keep in mind how other games implement their mechanics, because other companies DO look at how other games work.

 

Is Lethality good in PvP? Yes, except when you run across someone who are actually aware of their surroundings.

 

As for the cover system goes, I play an ops, and man I get ****ed over by you guys all the time, I get close, push back, boom boom boom, dead. I dont know man, gotta see how the game plays out. Cheers.

[Gadzooks]

You could dispell every one of a Warlock's dots in World of Warcraft as a Paladin/Shaman. That certainly didnt keep people from playing the class, because ONCE ( I can use caps also ) in every blue moon, someone would actually be smart enough in a BG to cast dispell. Also, in Arena, you'd be lucky if you had enough down time to cleanse yourself of a Warlock's DoTs. This game isnt World of Warcraft, and im sure everyone is tired of hearing about it, but you have to keep in mind how other games implement their mechanics, because other companies DO look at how other games work.

 

Is Lethality good in PvP? Yes, except when you run across someone who are actually aware of their surroundings.

 

As for the cover system goes, I play an ops, and man I get ****ed over by you guys all the time, I get close, push back, boom boom boom, dead. I dont know man, gotta see how the game plays out. Cheers.

 

Um, check again. Warlocks had curse dots and magic dots, no one class could dispell ALL of them. And, later, warlocks got Dots that hurt you for dispelling them.

[JethiAgnst]

Um, check again. Warlocks had curse dots and magic dots, no one class could dispell ALL of them. And, later, warlocks got Dots that hurt you for dispelling them.

 

Paladins have can dispell all magic debuffs, and shamans have Cleanse in the resto tree which removes curses, disease, and poison. And the warlock dot you are referring to, barely does any damage when dispell, maybe as much as an auto attack. Whoopdy

[Hellaskan]

I have found far too many places that cover won't activate (take cover in position) than I'd like. Flat ground.. indoor.. nothing.

Rolling to cover is a crapshoot and if it doesnt go the right direction (75%) it doesn't roll at all, or rolls somewhere else.. and pretty much every time he rolls, there's some nice lag there.

 

If my guess is that 25% of the time, I either roll late, or can't roll, or roll somewhere not intended (even when the mesh screen shows my attempted position).. something is amiss.

 

there are a few places in Huttball where I flat out cannot take cover in position.. the side ledges near the center (4 total sides, near the walk up ramp from the main level, or the air blast up)..the boxes at the ends there.. people are always walking up the side areas near the power ups.. and I cannot take cover in that position.

 

I respecced to a less cover-reliant spec just because of the hit and miss issues with the mechanic. (still pretty reliant though) ..sad.. i'm more of a "DoT" based "sniper" now.

[Gadzooks]

Paladins have can dispell all magic debuffs, and shamans have Cleanse in the resto tree which removes curses, disease, and poison. And the warlock dot you are referring to, barely does any damage when dispell, maybe as much as an auto attack. Whoopdy

 

My point was, no ONE class could cleanse EVERYTHING.

 

Something else to take in mind. Warlock DoTs were not required for any secondary effect to the degree that dots in lethality are.

 

Weakening Blast and Cull are both totally gimped and a HUGE waste of energy if DoTs are cleansed from a target. Add cooldowns on these abilities (except for dart), and you have a seriously gimped player. for 5-10 seconds of combat.

 

5-10 seconds in the heat of PvP battle is all it takes to determine win or loss.

[Rhinzual]

Cover, one of the only things they had that they could display as "innovative" combat-wise, was neither a good idea (only 4 of 16 classes get access at all) nor well implemented.

As you said, PvP is all about movement and positioning. Never before have I seen a game where you literally want to just sit still and press the same three buttons.

Cover is an unnecessary, nonsensical addition to this game. It provides one benefit: Charge immunity. It has dozens of drawbacks. The roll to cover system is so broken that good players just rebind it immediately to force cover.

 

How do I do that? I believe half my deaths in Voidstar just now were because I rolled behind one of those crates near the doors and suddenly every sage and commando saw me as an easy kill.

[Hellaskan]

 

on a side note:

 

Entrench: This is a very half hearted ability. It really is only good for ranged battles. Melee only ever CCs you to keep you from running away, and if you entrech, YOU ARENT MOVING ANYWAY, so they just sit chop away at you anyway. Plus, entrench seems sorta broken right now. All too often vs a ranged enemy, their attacks will STILL knock me OUT of cover, or stun me, despite having entrench up. If thats working as intended, then this ability is even more useless. I know that CC effects from raid bosses ignore entrench. Try the 2nd to lass boss fight in EV, and watch how often you get knocked out of cover.

 

 

I get knocked out of Entrench in PvP quite often.. from what I gathered here, that's because someone hits me from the side or at least, not directly head on.

 

While I'm here:

Can get get our AOE knockback fixed? Sweet Pete that thing seems to only work once in a while. 2 feet from a Jedi, cover (if Cover works at all).. BOOM... nothing. WTH? This has happened FAR too often.. tell me it's not just our AOE knockback and others have this issue too?

[Hellaskan]

How do I do that? I believe half my deaths in Voidstar just now were because I rolled behind one of those crates near the doors and suddenly every sage and commando saw me as an easy kill.

 

Remap your controls to "Take Cover In Place".. and if you're like me (and I don't if it's my Naga Mouse or not).. but you'll HAVE to bind your main key and your secondary to the take cover in place.. because your keys will remap/unmap.

 

NEVER roll to cover... ever.

[Potolomos]

There are dozens of options dev team could choose from, besides keeping cover system as it is now:

- put an 'instant cover' feature to MM tree (or semewhere)

- make cover position to buff (speed up, power up.. ect) abilities instead of making them unavailable out of cover

 

other to make noticeable DPS compared to some rocket spammer junky ppl.

- add a heal debuff

- an absorb shield 'breaker' ability

- move 'Slip away' skill from lethality to MM

- a better armor reducing skill ('Shatter shot' is a joke compared to merc. armor debuffing capability)

* make some extra buff slots for 'Snap Shot' / 'Sniper Volley' / 'Reactive Shot' skills, many situations these just dont activate at the time they should, guess because there are no more free buff slots on your character (next to stim / class buffs ... ect)

.. and so on

[Sammichmasta]

The cover bugs are the reason i have stopped playing my sniper, It is valor rank 56 (wearing columni/champ gear in all slots) i have been specced MM since the start. Keep in mind i am an oceanic player so my ping is around 200-250 so i already have a .2 second delay compared to american players. So standing around for 2-3 GCD's in order to cast 1 attack just doesnt work in pvp.

 

I dont say get rid of cover but i would like increased armour penetration while in cover or increased damage to make it worthwhile. From what i have seen from playing my powertech alt we have the worst armour penetration from any ranged class. For a class that has almost every attack reduced by armour i dont see the point. on my powertech specced for DPS my rail shot has 2 talents that can increase the armour penetration of rail shot, 60% from 1 tree and 30% from the other. Compare that to ambush's 20% reduction.

 

By now you ae thinking what about shattered shot's 20% reduction, guess what? that effects everyone not just you reducing the targets armour another 20% for the powertech.

 

assuming the armour penetration is multiplcative

 

Ambust = 36% armour pen when shattered shot is used.

Railshot = 77.6% armour pen when shattered shot is used.

Railshot = 72% armour pen without shattered shot.

 

Until the cover bugs are fixed i am not planning on playing my sniper and i am leveling up a powertech to tank with so that i can actually be useful.

[LadyAzurith]

This entire thread just cracks me up (Or at least the OP). What he doesn't understand is that PVP is an optional part of the game and not the target audience. They gave you a spec you could PVP in, be happy with it and move on. Cover works as intended. Making it optional completely takes away from the point of the class/mechanic.

 

Go back to wow if you want them to cater everything to PVP.

[Potolomos]

What he doesn't understand is that PVP is an optional part of the game...

 

No, thats the PvE carebear stuff you doin

[bigprimo]

In Huttball today:

 

In cover on the top overlooking the middle where the ball resets behind the sand bags. I destroyed a Jedi Guardian trying to get to the ball after it reset and he couldn't get away from me or charge to me. The only thing he could do to me was throw his saber at me lol.

 

After going in cover I leg shot, he used his escape ability then I Flash Banged him and proceeded to rip him a new one (Laze/Snipe/Ex Probe combo followed by a grenade toss took damn near half his life...then IProbed/Cor Dart him so he was slowed then ambushed him. He desperately tried to get to the jet stream to blow him away somewhere but I killed him before he could get there. Finished him with a Take down Grenade toss. I completely locked him down like a old school WOW rogue.

 

Stop trying to rush the pack and be a front lines fighter this is not our class. I used to laugh when Hunters and mages would QQ about getting ripped up because they would just charge into a pack of on coming warriors and rogues. Sit back and blow stuff apart.

 

Just think in real life how Snipers do business and I bet you will be ok.

 

Im level 23 btw and that Jedi was level 42. i know it may be different at 50 but so far I have no problems with cover. BTW Roll to cover is a great Escape ability.

[Revotz]

I have said this before, and I will say this again. Experienced ppl say that snipers are good in dmg, and defense (not all trees) but that they're hard to master, not because of the skills but: 1. because of the positioning, and most importantly 2. because it requires you to be in a team: you need to be protected, you need ppl to keep your targets in your LoS, Snipers are the most dependent on teammate's help in the game, if you go alone into wzs, then you will probably get ***** easily by most classes or at least they will LoS you to your death. I say this because I'm a lethality sniper (use cero cover) and I only get killed by snipers when im too busy fighting other guys, when Im not been focused or I dont have an objective in the wz, if Im not doing that then I can easily LoS cover-snipers and they will change to other target that will do the same as me...without help snipers suck.

[smulx]

At the very least they need to allow it to be used when we're rooted.

[smulx]

Can get get our AOE knockback fixed? Sweet Pete that thing seems to only work once in a while. 2 feet from a Jedi, cover (if Cover works at all).. BOOM... nothing. WTH? This has happened FAR too often.. tell me it's not just our AOE knockback and others have this issue too?

 

Happens to me all the time

[Nureddin]

There is another problem with cover. I noticed that cover displays a shiny red light energy cover that attracts attention of everyone. So when you get into cover the first thing you do is to place a Huge Red "I am here!" in your enemies screens, not a good beginning for a sneaky sniper. Ok if you roll behind something, but this is not the rule.

 

And yes, the necessity to get into cover to use most skills is annoying sometimes, while the rewards are not so great as told by the OP.

[MadSven]

I'm quite ok with cover, even if it makes us often less efficient than some other classes (in MM spec), because the sniper's gameplay was designed to work this way

 

BUT i dont understand why we dont have more range than 35m (for main skills)

 

Rly, its only 5m more than sorc/merc, meaning its almost not a real and viable "bonus"

 

Because i agree we have alot of tools for melees classes (stun, leg shot, cover impulse, ambush if you got the ability as an MM, flash), and even this is sometime not so true, meanwhile we can't use those tools against sorc/merc (they are both having a ranged stun) and while they can freely move to hide/show up whenever they want (or just flee away), and since they are already at almost our max range (in theory), have fun to leg shot

 

If you ever got to exit cover, you expose yourself to alot of things, and despit some ppl are arguing we can 1v1 for example a tank, it's very rare on WZ and you are most likely about to be charged by a juggernaut or a ravageur if a rogue class isnt already coming for you

 

And keep it real, if you arent focused in huttball, its because : your team is dominating; your team is in defense and you are trying to kill leftovers from middle (so you are also exposed to leftovers or respawning ppl coming to help the attack)

 

There is no "smart way" to play sniper, here we arent at 200m from the battleground, trying to HS ppl like in BF3, being undercover on a high building or an hill

 

 

Anyway, i switched to lethality, then tried again MM, and just switched back to lethality + eng hybrid, while our burst as an MM is nice, i still prefer being to setup healers in order to harass them and be able to wound tanks or melee who could run away because of their own defensif skills

Edited January 24, 2012 by MadSven

[routesman]

When I was in beta, I tried out the smuggler (gunslinger) first for the purpose of seeing how cover would work in PvP. I ended up realizing 2 things:

 

1) If I was playing solo, I had a lot of issues as I couldn't stay in cover. Simple solution was to go to the dirty fighting tree (Lethality for agents). I could still be very effective in terms of stats with all those DoTs flowing.

 

2) If I was in a group that actually worked together, I was a killing machine. On more than one occasion in Alderaan Civil War, I ended up defending a node with 1 other person. If that person kept people under control so I could get off a lot of damage, we could keep the node defended from 3 or 4 people without too many problems.

 

So, if you don't like cover... go to the shared tree for most of your points OR get someone to buddy up with and you'll just shred people. Gunslingers and snipers might be turrets... but they can lay the hammer if you let them sit still for long.

[Beansoup]

You realize that you don't HAVE to stay in cover in one spot, you can move elsewhere and crouch and if you have melee on you then you're playing sniper wrong.

 

You move from behind your silly flashing billboard that screams "please kill me, I'm right here", and I'll kill you with a merc or sorc in 6-8 seconds (usually less), if you don't move it might take me up to 8-12 seconds depending on the cicuimstances, but I'll give some leeway here. So, please move more and save me some time to focus on other opponents.

Edited January 24, 2012 by Beansoup

[MadSven]

You move from behind your silly flashing billboard that screams "please kill me, I'm right here", and I'll kill you with a merc or sorc in 6-8 seconds (usually less), if you don't move it might take me up to 8-12 seconds depending on the cicuimstances, but I'll give some leeway here. So, please move more and save me some time to focus on other opponents.

 

implying it's not a lethality sniper and you, sir, would be kinda dead by then

always fun to see merc/sorc not understanding their hp dissapearing from poisons/exploding prob/cull then takedown (and this in ONLY 4 sec bro, do i win ?)