SWToR Arena Possibilities

[Dmasterr]

http://www.warcry.com/articles/view/interviews/6773-Five-Years-of-Warcraft-Speaking-With-Blizzards-Rob-Pardo.2

 

Specificially...

 

What are you most proud of over the last five years? What was the biggest mistake you think you made?

 

As for the biggest mistake? There's a lot of them that I think, were ... they just "fell out" of things. One example: I wish the servers were more stable when we launched, of course - there's a lot of that sort of thing. We have a lot of excuses for that - we didn't expect nearly the response - but we can't say it wasn't a mistake. If I was going to pick on a game design thing that I look back on and think was a mistake? We really never designed WoW to be a competitive e-sports game; it was something that we decided to start tackling because there was such a desire and demand to evolve it in that direction, to introduce competitive arenas. I'm not sure that that was the right thing to do with the game.

 

We didn't engineer the game and classes and balance around it, we just added it on, so it continues to be very difficult to balance. Is WoW a PvE cooperative game, or a competitive PvP game? There's constant pressure on the class balance team, there's pressure on the game itself, and a lot of times players who don't PvP don't understand why their classes are changing. I don't think we ever foresaw how much tuning and tweaking we'd have to do to balance it in that direction. Either I'd go back in time to before WoW ever shipped and change the rules to make the basic game more conductive for being an e-sport, or if not that, just say it doesn't make sense. Right now, WoW has a bit of a schizophrenic philosophy behind it, and we're trying to figure out how to guide it.

 

Guess what, since the game is young, we dont have to go back in time to change the game and engineer it and classes with pvp balance in mind. We can do it right NOW.

 

Arena is great, Their mistake was failing to implement it, and designing a game without regard for PvP balance.

 

Is that what you want? to have a game where PvP balance is the last priority? Because that's where it ends up without engineering the game and class balance around PvP.

[Izola]

At the end of the day ARENAs require the most skill to master even though they are NEVER really balanced. So yes there will be a comp or 2 or 3 that leads most of the leader boards but that's life.

 

This is why you take a % of the top.

 

Hell I got Rogue Rogue to 2k in wraith when we had to run Muti.

 

It's fun!

Edited June 7, 2012 by Izola

[DarkDruidSS]

Guess what, since the game is young, we dont have to go back in time to change the game and engineer it and classes with pvp balance in mind. We can do it right NOW.

 

Arena is great, Their mistake was failing to implement it, and designing a game without regard for PvP balance.

 

Is that what you want? to have a game where PvP balance is the last priority? Because that's where it ends up without engineering the game and class balance around PvP.

 

No it is too late, because to get a game to be e-sport competitive it has to be designed that way from the ground up. If the game is released like SWTOR, WoW, Rift or any other PVE game with PvP tacked on then it's too late to make it competitive.

 

Fast forward to Guild Wars 2 which is designed from the ground up to be PvP and competitive and you have a shot at making a e-sport type game.

 

It's time people realized this isn't the PvP game they were looking for. PvP is fun in SWTOR, but it is not and never will be the main attraction. The main attraction will be the PvE and the story complete with voice overs. Does that make me like SWTOR less? Sorta, I mean I was lead to believe it was going to have a strong well designed PvP portion that was started when the game was in development... instead we got another WoW, EQ2, or Rift where PvP was tacked on.

 

But SWTOR is still fun and I can always play GW2 on the side.

Edited June 7, 2012 by DarkDruidSS

[TheNotorius]

Arena can be "e-peen" ecc, only if the game make it so (like warcraft, which for many is a bad example)

 

Without specific gear, for example (maybe just some commendations like WZs), it will be just like warzones, nothing more, and people who like it can play it.

 

If someone don't like them, they simply won't. (Basically, they have to make them NOT required at all to gear up, but only as an option).

[Postalz]

No one said anything about esport, heck there wouldn't be any rewards that are unattainable via wz's. All we're asking for is small scale competitive group PvP.

[DarkDruidSS]

No one said anything about esport, heck there wouldn't be any rewards that are unattainable via wz's. All we're asking for is small scale competitive group PvP.

 

Outlaw's Den... form your own ladder and tournament system for your server community. You can do all the 2v2, 3v3, 4v4s you could ever want against your faction and the opposite faction or is that too much to ask since there is already the pit there basically begging to be used for smale scale pvp?

 

Edit

Here is exactly what i am talking about.. other people are doing it already.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9OCEfUHxOA&feature=related

My guild has even hosted an event like this on our pvp server. Death Wind Corridor. We asked participants to put in credits to buy in. Winners won the pot at the end.

Edited June 7, 2012 by DarkDruidSS

[Koskilicious]

Please, please implement arenas. All of the kids that don't want arenas were the ones that couldn't break 1500 in WoW.

 

Serious pvp'ers want to seriously pvp. Warzones and Ilum are great, but I want to compete and be compared against other players on a singular level.

 

Arenas dont ruin games - in fact, arenas have ben arguably one of the most successful aspects of games like WoW.

 

You don't have to participate if you dont want to. Serious, competitive pvp players want to.

[DarkDruidSS]

Going to put it out there that i'm not really against BW adding arenas, just offering up support that 1 Blizzard dev said it was a huge mistake.. which doesn't mean all the devs felt that way and showing that you can do your own arena style battles in Outlaw's Den. Which is a great way to get your arena fix now.

 

If BW could release arenas I just don't know how competitive they will actually be since the classes aren't really designed to be on equal footage against all other classes. It would be something that would likely take BW a very long time to implement and actually make it competitive. SWTOR was already semi-balanced around team play so adding ranked matches where you can fill in your weak spots with strong classes is easier to implement than smaller scale PvP that is more balanced. It wouldn't be a feature I would expect to see any time this year.

[Dmasterr]

Outlaw's Den... form your own ladder and tournament system for your server community. You can do all the 2v2, 3v3, 4v4s you could ever want against your faction and the opposite faction or is that too much to ask since there is already the pit there basically begging to be used for smale scale pvp?

 

Edit

Here is exactly what i am talking about.. other people are doing it already.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9OCEfUHxOA&feature=related

My guild has even hosted an event like this on our pvp server. Death Wind Corridor. We asked participants to put in credits to buy in. Winners won the pot at the end.

 

Then NAGA please, stop asking for world pvp. Go do it yourself, Illum is still there, all the planets are there, Outlaw's den is there. ... you get the idea.

 

And unlike world pvp Arena requires cross-server to function properly, you can not go "do it yourself" because you can't play vs players from other servers.

 

Why on earth are players AGAINST new content, nobody is forcing you to play it. All we want is Arena and a ranking ladder, we couldn't care less about gear and ****, that's what PvE players are whining about.

 

 

If BW could release arenas I just don't know how competitive they will actually be since the classes aren't really designed to be on equal footage against all other classes..

 

And don't you WANT better PvP balance?? Don't you want for a fair chance in pvp regardless of your class ?? Arena exposes pvp imbalance so it can be fixed.

 

*Do you want your sentinel to faceroll forever ???* guess this is it.

Edited June 7, 2012 by Dmasterr

[DarkDruidSS]

Then NAGA please, stop asking for world pvp. Go do it yourself, Illum is still there, all the planets are there, Outlaw's den is there. ... you get the idea.

 

And unlike world pvp Arena requires cross-server to function properly, you can not go "do it yourself" because you can't play vs players from other servers.

 

Why on earth are players AGAINST new content, nobody is forcing you to play it. All we want is Arena and a ranking ladder, we couldn't care less about gear and ****, that's what PvE players are whining about.

 

Edited for your ninja edit....

 

I want pvp balanced and I have never said otherwise.

Edited June 7, 2012 by DarkDruidSS

[Dmasterr]

You're way late to the party... should have responded to my post directly above this one instead. I specifically said I wasn't against arenas.

 

I did, read up.

[DarkDruidSS]

I did, read up.

 

haha what now?

 

Edit

By the way, my marauder is one of my lowest level classes.

Edited June 7, 2012 by DarkDruidSS

[Arkerus]

Guess what, since the game is young, we dont have to go back in time to change the game and engineer it and classes with pvp balance in mind. We can do it right NOW.

 

Arena is great, Their mistake was failing to implement it, and designing a game without regard for PvP balance.

 

Is that what you want? to have a game where PvP balance is the last priority? Because that's where it ends up without engineering the game and class balance around PvP.

 

No, No, and No.

 

No matter how you do it, Arenas simply add a giant microscope to each class. Your argument that it makes it more balanced is totally bunk. All it does it force balancing changes on a class because, under a microscope (or paired with one other play) that class is completely OP.

 

If you have a game with 3 classes Arena can work. Kind of like Starcraft. When you have 4 classes with 3 specific skill trees, it becomes a nightmare of possibilities.

 

Its totally and completely wrong to say PvP balance is their last priority. You might not like it, but right now they have the system where they want it. They have stated several times that PvP is extremely important. All arena will do is create more chaos and more "epeen" factor for the masses. There will be constant nerfs and buffs because of the arena system.

 

Balance for groups. Don't create an arena and start balancing for teams of 2 and 3.

[Dmasterr]

Dude, it wasn't a ninja edit.

 

When i started my post, yours wasn't there yet, and then decided to reply to you as well. And i use edit so i don't double post. Before it was done, you made another post.

 

Sorry that i don't live on the forum refreshing the page every second. I am on the forum when in q for wz.

 

And in response to your last post.

 

You can not balance classes if you don't know how they stack against each other, 8v8 is not only to big of a group, but it is also objective base, where class performance is not measured vs other classes, but how it contributes to objectives.

 

You need Arena for that, 3v3.

[Arkerus]

Please, please implement arenas. All of the kids that don't want arenas were the ones that couldn't break 1500 in WoW.

 

Serious pvp'ers want to seriously pvp. Warzones and Ilum are great, but I want to compete and be compared against other players on a singular level.

 

Arenas dont ruin games - in fact, arenas have ben arguably one of the most successful aspects of games like WoW.

 

You don't have to participate if you dont want to. Serious, competitive pvp players want to.

 

This is another reason why we don't want arenas. This epeen BS can stay in WoW where it belongs. People start measuring other people by their arena rating.

 

WZs is one thing. Rating someone's "manhood" by their arena score is immaturity and ignorance.

[Dmasterr]

No, No, and No.

 

No matter how you do it, Arenas simply add a giant microscope to each class. Your argument that it makes it more balanced is totally bunk. All it does it force balancing changes on a class because, under a microscope (or paired with one other play) that class is completely OP.

 

If you have a game with 3 classes Arena can work. Kind of like Starcraft. When you have 4 classes with 3 specific skill trees, it becomes a nightmare of possibilities.

 

Its totally and completely wrong to say PvP balance is their last priority. You might not like it, but right now they have the system where they want it. They have stated several times that PvP is extremely important. All arena will do is create more chaos and more "epeen" factor for the masses. There will be constant nerfs and buffs because of the arena system.

 

Balance for groups. Don't create an arena and start balancing for teams of 2 and 3.

 

You do realize you are contradicting yourself in both your "points" right?

 

First you say, arena puts classes under a microscope to see the imbalances that need fixing, then that it doesn't improve balance.

 

Second you say that arena works with 3 classes (guess what there are 3 roles Tank / Heal / DPS) but it doesn't work in teams of 3. /lol

This is another reason why we don't want arenas. This epeen BS can stay in WoW where it belongs. People start measuring other people by their arena rating.

 

WZs is one thing. Rating someone's "manhood" by their arena score is immaturity and ignorance.

 

How ELSE are you supposed to measure player skill ? by how many operations they completed?> / lol

 

That's exactly what PvP stands for. Putting your wit against others, and see who is better. That's the only reason PvP exists. 1 side will always lose, making the winner better by comparison.

Edited June 7, 2012 by Dmasterr

[DarkDruidSS]

No, No, and No.

 

No matter how you do it, Arenas simply add a giant microscope to each class. Your argument that it makes it more balanced is totally bunk. All it does it force balancing changes on a class because, under a microscope (or paired with one other play) that class is completely OP.

 

If you have a game with 3 classes Arena can work. Kind of like Starcraft. When you have 4 classes with 3 specific skill trees, it becomes a nightmare of possibilities.

 

Its totally and completely wrong to say PvP balance is their last priority. You might not like it, but right now they have the system where they want it. They have stated several times that PvP is extremely important. All arena will do is create more chaos and more "epeen" factor for the masses. There will be constant nerfs and buffs because of the arena system.

 

Balance for groups. Don't create an arena and start balancing for teams of 2 and 3.

 

See, I can agree with this. The game wasn't intend for small scale pvp. I think balancing around small scale perfectly will never happen with as many classes and trees we have. They could add in arenas to appease the masses, but they won't be trully competitive because they won't be balanced to the point they need to be. Which is why i was offering up the Outlaw's Den idea... which will work on higher pop servers and not something realistic for the majority of servers right now.

[Dmasterr]

See, I can agree with this. The game wasn't intend for small scale pvp. I think balancing around small scale perfectly will never happen with as many classes and trees we have. They could add in arenas to appease the masses, but they won't be trully competitive because they won't be balanced to the point they need to be. Which is why i was offering up the Outlaw's Den idea... which will work on higher pop servers and not something realistic for the majority of servers right now.

 

Arena is coming mate, the only question is when. If you don't see it, you are blind. (don't you see that bioware copies everything blizzard does in WoW?

 

The only reason they did not copied everything yet, is due to resource limitations.

 

So, better get used to the idea, and work together so it is properly implemented.

[Aaroneus]

Outlaw's Den... form your own ladder and tournament system for your server community. You can do all the 2v2, 3v3, 4v4s you could ever want against your faction and the opposite faction or is that too much to ask since there is already the pit there basically begging to be used for smale scale pvp?

 

Edit

Here is exactly what i am talking about.. other people are doing it already.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9OCEfUHxOA&feature=related

My guild has even hosted an event like this on our pvp server. Death Wind Corridor. We asked participants to put in credits to buy in. Winners won the pot at the end.

 

I like this idea. You're lucky to be in a proactive guild with a widespread interest in hosting an event like that. Unfortunately, many other people are not in a position like that. Personally, I'm all about the Outlaw's Den and I love the concept of walking in there at any time to come across some sort of action. Sadly, it's a ghost town most of the time. If any other Guildmasters are reading this, try getting something like this organized with your guild, and advertise in the fleet in case anyone else wants to get in on it. I am aware that this has the potential to be a logistical nightmare though.

[DarkDruidSS]

Arena is coming mate, the only question is when. If you don't see it, you are blind. (don't you see that bioware copies everything blizzard does in WoW?

 

The only reason they did not copied everything yet, is due to resource limitations.

 

So, better get used to the idea, and work together so it is properly implemented.

 

Going to pull a Dmasterr and say... Source?

 

If it comes, then it comes. I'm not going to worry about it. More PvP for the PvP community isn't a bad thing since there is no open world PvP.

 

If they do add it before they fix open world PvP then they will have to have some very strong rewards to encourage people to PvP in the Open World. Otherwise there won't be enough people to PvP against.

 

I am sure they are working on open world as a higher priority than arenas are currently. Since Ilum was supposed to be a major draw for open world PvP and it failed due to performance issue.

 

Am I doing this right?

 

Oh wait I need more colors!

Edited June 7, 2012 by DarkDruidSS

[Dmasterr]

If they add arena before world pvp, are you serious ?

 

World pvp is never going to happen, even if they want to. Because the game engine barely supports 8v8 pvp on a small map.

 

Its 100% that arena is going to happen before world pvp. WHY? because sometime in the future > never. / lol

 

Why not help to get it properly done?

Edited June 7, 2012 by Dmasterr

[DarkDruidSS]

If they add arena before world pvp, are you serious ?

 

World pvp is never going to happen, even if they want to. Because the game engine barely supports 8v8 pvp.

 

Its 100% that arena is going to happen before world pvp. WHY? because sometime in the future > never. / lol

 

Why not help to get it properly done?

 

Sadly, I know you could be right about that. I am still hoping they can optimize the game to allow open world. They wouldn't have polled us specifically looking to see what kind of Open world we are most wanting if they weren't planning to add it at some point, but it could end up to be like Winters Grasp or whatever the WoW map was that was for large scale pvp... instanced.

Edited June 7, 2012 by DarkDruidSS

[Arkerus]

You do realize you are contradicting yourself in both your "points" right?

 

First you say, arena puts classes under a microscope to see the imbalances that need fixing, then that it doesn't improve balance.

 

Second you say that arena works with 3 classes (guess what there are 3 roles Tank / Heal / DPS) but it doesn't work in teams of 3. /lol

 

 

How ELSE are you supposed to measure player skill ? by how many operations they completed?> / lol

 

That's exactly what PvP stands for. Putting your wit against others, and see who is better. That's the only reason PvP exists. 1 side will always lose, making the winner better by comparison.

 

Its not contradictory. Its the balance in groups verse the balance in 1v1, 2v2. Group balance is a hell of lot easier and time effective than trying to balance 12 different skill trees and their direct synergy with ONE other class.

 

And for the second point, Arena creates a sub culture that is borderline disgusting. Nothing wrong with ranks, especially around large group PvP as its largely the group that wins or loses. That requires teams to work together.

 

Arena type PvP creates a divide amongst players and create FOTM classes. Arena drives home a 1v1 type culture when some classes aren't even designed to be dominate in a 1v1 style PvP.

Edited June 7, 2012 by Arkerus

[Dmasterr]

By the time the game engine would support something like winters grasp, 99.9% of current players would have moved on from Swtor.

 

Even wow, has difficulties with uber game engine built for it. Not to mention isnt that what you whine against? instanced pvp ? lol

 

On the other hand Arena 3v3 fights could happen "now" , when x-server gets here.

[Dmasterr]

Its not contradictory. Its the balance in groups verse the balance in 1v1, 2v2. Group balance is a hell of lot easier and time effective than trying to balance 12 different skill trees and their direct synergy with ONE other class.

 

And for the second point, Arena creates a sub culture that is borderline disgusting. Nothing wrong with ranks, especially around large group PvP as its largely the group that wins or loses. That requires teams to work together.

 

Arena type PvP creates a divide amongst players and create FOTM classes. Arena drives home a 1v1 type culture when some classes aren't even designed to be dominate in a 1v1 style PvP.

 

Anything that involves more than 1 player is a team. / lol L2 logic

 

And there are already FOTM classes, and 1v1 FOTM, you don't need Arena for that. Arena is not responsible for game imbalances between classes, but can be used as a tool to spot said imbalances and fix them.

Edited June 7, 2012 by Dmasterr