1.11 changes: too much?

[Wisers]

*knee-jerk reaction*

 

From the PTR forums:

Scoundrel

 

Flechette Round: Now provides 30% armor penetration while active.

K.O.: This ability now knocks the target down for 1.5 seconds.

Shoot First: The damage output of this ability has been decreased by approximately 20% to control burst damage and because it was enabling significantly faster than intended kills in PvP.

 

Flechette Round is typed out to be a buff, but it's currently 50%

KO makes me wonder if we can even get another ability off...and will it fill resolve bar still?

Shoot First, the only one that makes sense.

 

 

Bundled together, this seems like complete overkill. If DA is down, we're sitting ducks. Outside of our burst, our damage is horrid. Are you trying to pigeonhole us into healing like Blizzard did to feral druids back in the day? Good grief.

Edited January 21, 2012 by Wisers

[karcyon]

The armor penetration thing is too much IMHO. And a 1.5 stun shouldn't give a full resolve bar now!

 

What a total knee jerk reaction. But it's not live yet... I hope they tweak it a bit. Doubtful though.

Edited January 21, 2012 by karcyon

[Faims]

The nerfs are too much. They needed to change things around, but this is overdone. Good thing Scoundrel healing is fun to play, otherwise I'd be pissed.

 

Also I don't see why anyone would spec the knockdown for Shoot First anymore.

[karcyon]

Well the whiners got what they wanted. Now it's our time to whine! Edited January 21, 2012 by karcyon

[antiviolence]

Bundled together, this seems like complete overkill. If DA is down, we're sitting ducks. Outside of our burst, our damage is horrid. Are you trying to pigeonhole us into healing like Blizzard did to feral druids back in the day? Good grief.

 

Exactly what I wanted to say. Now I feel like a vanilla wow druid.

39 other classes and 1 druid. Why? Mark of the Wild.

Thanks Bioware for listening to made up numbers and ridiculous scenarios from other class. Not only have you destroyed PVP for me, you've also destroyed PVE.

[torhent]

*knee-jerk reaction*

 

From the PTR forums:

 

 

Flechette Round is typed out to be a buff, but it's currently 50%

KO makes me wonder if we can even get another ability off...and will it fill resolve bar still?

Shoot First, the only one that makes sense.

 

 

Bundled together, this seems like complete overkill. If DA is down, we're sitting ducks. Outside of our burst, our damage is horrid. Are you trying to pigeonhole us into healing like Blizzard did to feral druids back in the day? Good grief.

 

Bioware could have implemented 2 of the 3 and it would have been an appropriate nerf OR Bioware could have implemented all 3 of the nerfs and cut down slightly on the time to re-stealth.

 

All of it is livable for the scrapper, but it is a slight over correction now without increasing a Scrappers out of stealth DPS OR Defensive capabilities. Basically, you will be able to take a guy down to about 75% and now you have to fight them in the open.

 

If you want to compensate, pick up med pack, drop fletchette round and you can live through the nerf with a minimal impact.

[dysann]

I just cancelled over this. Well, not *just* this... this was just the final straw. Republic + The joke that is Ilum + Ability Delay + Always in combat can't stealth + Teleporting people in PVP + Not in range all the time + No gap closer + Crap survivability + Bugged vanish + Removal of 50 pvp blue gear after others got it + Talents that literally do nothing (nice testing) + RNG PVP loot distribution + and on and on and on...

 

I vote with my $. Let the market sort this all out, and believe me it will.

[Leilei]

My opinion on the nerfs :

 

K.O. Down to 1.5 seconds - I dont care I dont have this talent. The fact that it fills the resolve bar is enough to make me puke. I go shoot first -> kick to nuts -> pistol whip -> back blast -> sucker punching session

 

Flechette Round - This was not really needed...

 

Shoot first 20% Less - My shoot first does 2000 damage. So it will do 1600 damage now? Too much. Only way to make it better would be if "Sawed Off" talent reduced its energy cost by 10 or make sawed off remove the energy cost entirely.

 

Just for the record, my back blast does 1321 minimum.

[Faims]

 

If you want to compensate, pick up med pack, drop fletchette round and you can live through the nerf with a minimal impact.

 

Bingo .

[Raice]

I think... and I could be wrong here.... But anyone even attempting to address this as "too much of a nerf" needs to realize something.

 

There was never anything wrong with Scrapper in the first place. It worked really great. It's Biochem and Expertise that is borked.

[AmbientRaven]

Nope, just the right amount actually.

No class should be able to snap some one in equal gear in 4 seconds.

 

U guyz mad?

[Sedisp]

I think... and I could be wrong here.... But anyone even attempting to address this as "too much of a nerf" needs to realize something.

 

There was never anything wrong with Scrapper in the first place. It worked really great. It's Biochem and Expertise that is borked.

 

No it's not.

 

Expertise is a whopping ten percent extra damage.

[Raice]

No it's not.

 

Expertise is a whopping ten percent extra damage.

 

Now stack that on what Biochem does.

 

It makes a difference. If it didn't matter, then it wouldn't be specific to the best PvP gear and people wouldn't be going nuts trying to get it.

 

Biochem alone is pretty rough. But there is too much stacking going on. Stacking buff issues is the best way to make sure your PvP class balance goes way out of control. Yeah I know... they won't be perfect anyway. But this nerf is sort of dismissing the more universal issue.

[Blue]

Yeah its too much

[Abanoth]

More worried about PvE than PvP tbh. In PvP you just farm gear until you're a wrecking ball anyway, making FOTM almost moot, but it's really going to suck trying to solo elites, you'll pretty much have to use consumables and a healer companion every storyline fight now. Edited January 21, 2012 by Abanoth

[Shainra]

I'll say right up front, I don't play a Scrapper, I've been a Sawbones since level 10. That out of the way, I'd like to offer my opinion.

 

Ironically, in PvP the Op/Scoundrel was the only dps I could usually escape. Just pop my CC breaker after the opener, slow, and bolt. Any other class has a closer or is ranged and I get slaughtered, but not the Op/Scoundrel.

 

That said, I know other people seemed to have survivability problems against the opener in PvP, and this will really hurt players in PvE. Because of the real lack of sustainable damage for Scoundrels/Ops in both, I think a minor buff to sustainable would be a good balancing act here.

 

Add a small, unspec'd DoT to Backblast that lasts for 9 seconds (100% uptime, about equal to 20 or 25% of the Backblast hit). When the DoT is active on your target, have Blaster Whip deal an additional 10% damage.

 

Obviously the numbers may need tweaking, but I think trading off the 'OP' burst for a little more sustainable damage seems a fair compromise so those that want to PvE aren't left totally out in the cold.

[Raice]

More worried about PvE than PvP tbh. In PvP you just farm gear until you're a wrecking ball anyway, making FOTM almost moot, but it's really going to suck trying to solo elites, you'll pretty much have to use consumables and a healer companion every storyline fight now.

 

Well... this is a valid point. But I don't think it's any secret that Bioware intended DF to be the preferred Scoundrel PvE build (or maybe Sawbones.) It's pretty apparent in that Scrapper is quite pathetic in PvE in comparison until it gets Shoot First anyway.

 

I'm not saying Scrapper can't be done, I'm just saying that for PvE... there are better options available. I mean, I leveled Scrapper in PvE - I know how it performs. On trash mobs... it's great. In FP's, Heroics, and Operations... it leaves a lot to be desired.

[Raice]

I'll say right up front, I don't play a Scrapper, I've been a Sawbones since level 10. That out of the way, I'd like to offer my opinion.

 

Ironically, in PvP the Op/Scoundrel was the only dps I could usually escape. Just pop my CC breaker after the opener, slow, and bolt. Any other class has a closer or is ranged and I get slaughtered, but not the Op/Scoundrel.

 

That said, I know other people seemed to have survivability problems against the opener in PvP, and this will really hurt players in PvE. Because of the real lack of sustainable damage for Scoundrels/Ops in both, I think a minor buff to sustainable would be a good balancing act here.

 

Add a small, unspec'd DoT to Backblast that lasts for 9 seconds (100% uptime, about equal to 20 or 25% of the Backblast hit). When the DoT is active on your target, have Blaster Whip deal an additional 10% damage.

 

Obviously the numbers may need tweaking, but I think trading off the 'OP' burst for a little more sustainable damage seems a fair compromise so those that want to PvE aren't left totally out in the cold.

 

I would be okay with this, but it isn't addressing PvP, really. People don't seem to understand how much Scrappers relied on that opener. It was never about it being so devastating. It was about the fact that we will literally get rolled when we are out in the open.

 

I think the balancing act should go equally to our sustained DPS and a small boost to our defense in some manner. Maybe Upper Hand gives us some resistances or something? I just see the situation coming up where we are out in the open long enough for that immediate Focus Fire taking away every chance we have of escaping, and we end up not killing the target anyway... because we're dead.

 

Disappearing Act isn't exactly a "get out of jail free" card. Even if you manage to use it in time.... you almost always have a Mind Affecting DoT or a Sticky Grenade on you somewhere, not to mention you cannot heal while stealthed. You can't even use a med pac.

[Leilei]

Nope, just the right amount actually.

No class should be able to snap some one in equal gear in 4 seconds.

 

U guyz mad?

 

I can NOT snap someone in equal gear in 4 seconds

If they have bad gear I cant unless I do the following :

 

Use the best relic I have (220 crit and surge)

Use Expertise potion or get red buff

Crit every single attack I put out

 

And this only works if it is someone who has low ish hp (11-13k) has no defensive buffs (no bubble no HoT)

 

I always single out the easiest person to kill and go after the easy prey. ALWAYS. Put me VS a equal geared BH and I am not going to drop him without me popping coolhead or get EXTREMELY lucky with crits

[Shainra]

I would be okay with this, but it isn't addressing PvP, really. People don't seem to understand how much Scrappers relied on that opener. It was never about it being so devastating. It was about the fact that we will literally get rolled when we are out in the open.

 

I think the balancing act should go equally to our sustained DPS and a small boost to our defense in some manner. Maybe Upper Hand gives us some resistances or something? I just see the situation coming up where we are out in the open long enough for that immediate Focus Fire taking away every chance we have of escaping, and we end up not killing the target anyway... because we're dead.

 

Disappearing Act isn't exactly a "get out of jail free" card. Even if you manage to use it in time.... you almost always have a Mind Affecting DoT or a Sticky Grenade on you somewhere, not to mention you cannot heal while stealthed. You can't even use a med pac.

 

I'd be totally on board with something like take 5% reduced damage when you have an active Upper Hand. But to be honest, without the deadly opener, other aspects of the class can be looked at. Before, people said that we didn't need gap closers or pushbacks because we had devastating burst. Without that, I personally feel we need a sprint and some kind of knockback as well.

 

The damage nerf seems like it'll bring Scrapper damage down to Assassin/Shadow level. So gaining some of their utility (speed/knockback) wouldn't be out of reason in this case.

 

Having a speed boost, a knockback, and my aforementioned damage boost might go a long way to balancing things out, both for the Scrapper spec that was nerfed, and the incidentally nerfed Sawbones spec that relied on Shoot First for it's very miniscule amount of damage done.

[Raice]

I'd be totally on board with something like take 5% reduced damage when you have an active Upper Hand. But to be honest, without the deadly opener, other aspects of the class can be looked at. Before, people said that we didn't need gap closers or pushbacks because we had devastating burst. Without that, I personally feel we need a sprint and some kind of knockback as well.

 

The damage nerf seems like it'll bring Scrapper damage down to Assassin/Shadow level. So gaining some of their utility (speed/knockback) wouldn't be out of reason in this case.

 

Having a speed boost, a knockback, and my aforementioned damage boost might go a long way to balancing things out, both for the Scrapper spec that was nerfed, and the incidentally nerfed Sawbones spec that relied on Shoot First for it's very miniscule amount of damage done.

 

I'm in sort of a negative mood about it right now. I am very, very disappointed in this. I'm pretty sure nothing will be compensated virtue of the fact that this nerf was only to appease the whiners in the first place, who never actually played the Class to know why it performed the way it did.

 

You see... to them.... the class is "balanced" now. It's going to take the Scoundrel Community another 2 months before they even look into this again. Honestly.... I had my heart set on Scoundrel the whole time. Bought a CE Box and everything. Now... I've sort of lost my faith in them to make good decisions. This is just a bad decision all around, I think.

 

The class didn't need to be nerfed - Biochem did. But even still, maybe Scrapper needed some rearranging so the damage isn't all front loaded - I could see that. But this is a completely unnecessary OVERKILL nerf.

[Sedisp]

Now stack that on what Biochem does.

 

It makes a difference. If it didn't matter, then it wouldn't be specific to the best PvP gear and people wouldn't be going nuts trying to get it.

 

Biochem alone is pretty rough. But there is too much stacking going on. Stacking buff issues is the best way to make sure your PvP class balance goes way out of control. Yeah I know... they won't be perfect anyway. But this nerf is sort of dismissing the more universal issue.

 

 

Approximately 9% extra crit and 1% extra damage. Yes I just checked.

 

Assuming he's WZ adrenaled and red buff he does a MASSIVE 14% extra damage.

[Raice]

Approximately 9% extra crit and 1% extra damage. Yes I just checked.

 

Assuming he's WZ adrenaled and red buff he does a MASSIVE 14% extra damage.

 

So... what you're saying is he's not really doing THAT much damage after all, and this nerf is totally unnecessary?

 

Gotcha! Glad we agree.

 

Look... I've played this class extensively. This phenomena only occurs on Gears, Buff 50's. On regular 50's who aren't using Buffs and aren't using Cent/Champ gear... this situation simply does not occur.

 

Let's do some simple math together:

 

Team Buffs + Relics + Biochem + Champ Gear + 50 Op/Scoundrel = Total Unavoidable Annihilation (evidently)

 

Okay

 

Now let me normalize this to just the class.

 

Scoundrel/Op Self Buff + 50 Op/Scoundrel = Pretty standard performance (observable fact)

 

I know this, because there is virtually no difference between a lvl 50 Op and a lvl 49 Op (slight HP differences maybe) and the level 49 Ops aren't terrorizing the Pre-50 WZs. I know this because I was one of them. Hell, even the fresh 50's in the new WZ's AREN'T doing anything. They're the best cannon fodder you can get your HANDS on.

 

Now... what can we deduce from this? Please tell me you understand basic logic?

 

I can't explain the math to you, but somehow, some way... the Gear and the Expertise, the Rakata Biochems, and the awesome Relics, and all the other stuff.... it makes a DRASTIC difference in the performance of the Scoundrel/Op.

 

I swear... it's like telling a blind person the sky is blue, and they insist on believing there IS no sky. I don't understand how this is so hard for you to grasp. I really don't man. I'm sorry.

 

I need someone to explain it to me how these Ops/Scoundrels are suddenly becoming Gods if not for the stuff you don't have access to prior to 50. Because they are NOWHERE near this level of performance at 49, or when they cross over to 50. They're just not. I'm sorry.

[nix_crash]

Shoot first 20% Less - My shoot first does 2000 damage. So it will do 1600 damage now? Too much. Only way to make it better would be if "Sawed Off" talent reduced its energy cost by 10 or make sawed off remove the energy cost entirely.

your shoot first does 2000 damage with 50% armor pen (from flechette), so with these change it will do a lot less than 1600, this is bad for pvp but terrible for pve (where all bosses have absurdly high armor).

[okarr]

wow and out of the wood work come the gloating crybabies who complained and whined that they get deaded in 5 seconds.

 

the introduction of 50 warzones was fix enough. scrapper is and was fine.

 

sorc shield? there goes 80% of your shoot first. full resolve bar? trigger benny hill style chase. let alone the mass aoe that wont let you get a shoot first off in many circumstances.

K.O. full resolve bar? why do i not get a full resolve bar from chokes, lifts and other asorted stuns?

 

expertise gear and tanks? lol...

 

so with average gear (full champion) scrapper was near perfectly balanced.