Rule of Two: How'd They Know?

[RoadtoArkham]

In the Phantom Menace, at the funeral of Qui-Gon Jinn, one of the Jedi, Yoda I believe, mentions to Obi-Wan that there are always two Sith. A Master and Apprentice.

 

Obi-Wan speculates as to which one Darth Maul was while the camera pans out to Palpatine while echoes of the Imperial March play.

 

Now...how the hell did the Jedi know about the Rule of Two if it was kept secret for the thousand years since Darth Bane?

[BrandonSM]

When your 900 years old, you know things.

 

Joking aside, I have no idea

[Wolfninjajedi]

When your 900 years old, you know things.

 

Joking aside, I have no idea

 

Know that was a joke, but thats not far from the truth really pretty sure over 900 years or what have you Yoda will pick up on things, and he was actually talking to Mace about it not Obi-Wan.

Edited January 21, 2012 by Wolfninjajedi

[psychogobstopper]

The Order may have discovered some of Bane's teachings at some point during those thousand years.

[thecordler]

According to the Darth Plagueis novel, during the 1000s year rule of two, at an unknown time one of the rule of two sith converted to the jedi order, and took with him the secrets of sith soul transfer and force ghosting.

[jarjarloves]

... yeah when you look at the movies and TCW no one really ever follows the Rule of Two.

[bfishback]

... yeah when you look at the movies and TCW no one really ever follows the Rule of Two.

 

Well Maul wasn't really apart of the legacy, he was merely a tool to be used, and was only trained to be an assassin. He was never intended to be a true Sith Lord. I'm assuming Ventress was the same thing, as maybe Sidious allowed Dokku to use her, though I'm not sure.

[psychogobstopper]

Well Maul wasn't really apart of the legacy, he was merely a tool to be used, and was only trained to be an assassin.

Maul was a Darth, and therefore absolutely a member of the Order of Sith Lords.

 

... yeah when you look at the movies and TCW no one really ever follows the Rule of Two.

In that time period (and even after the advent of the Galactic Empire), the Rule of Two technically isn't broken so long as a Sith Master doesn't grant an apprentice explicit inclusion in the Order of Sith Lords (i.e., granting the title "Darth"). Asajj Ventress, Savage Opress, the Dark Side Adepts, the Emperor's Hands, and so on thus were never "Sith" and therefore never broke the "Rule of Two" because they were tools - not an extension and continuation of the Sith line.

 

Of course, just off the top of my head, I can think of at least one anomaly in this pattern - the Prophets of the Dark Side. It was an organization originally formed by a Sith Lord who followed the Rule of Two but broke away to found his own order, believing that the Sith needed to be many in number to be strong. The group still existed when Sidious took the mantle of Dark Lord, and would serve him after the declaration of the New Order. Technically they would consider themselves to be Sith, but since they were following older patterns than Bane's Rule of Two, I suppose they could be considered "heretical" and therefore still not part of the Sith line as far as Sidious would be concerned. Of course, they could have argued that Sidious was the heretical one, since the "many numbers" thinking came first...

Edited January 21, 2012 by psychogobstopper

[BrandonSM]

Maul was a Darth, and therefore absolutely a member of the Order of Sith Lords.

 

 

In that time period (and even after the advent of the Galactic Empire), the Rule of Two technically isn't broken so long as a Sith Master doesn't grant an apprentice explicit inclusion in the Order of Sith Lords (i.e., granting the title "Darth"). Asajj Ventress, Savage Opress, the Dark Side Adepts, the Emperor's Hands, and so on thus were never "Sith" and therefore never broke the "Rule of Two" because they were tools - not an extension and continuation of the Sith line.

 

What about Vader?

 

He was never an acolyte to Sidious, right when he was turned he became Darth Vader.

[psychogobstopper]

What about Vader?

 

He was never an acolyte to Sidious, right when he was turned he became Darth Vader.

I consider Anakin Skywalker to have become Sidious's apprentice the very moment that Skywalker decided to execute Darth Tyrannus, rather than take him prisoner for the Jedi Order and the Republic.

 

Even if one doesn't share that perspective, Skywalker certainly became Sidious's apprentice upon being declared Darth Vader. Under the Rule of Two, being given the Darth title doesn't mean that you're not an apprentice - it means that you are accepted as a Sith. Sidious, after all, very clearly refers to Maul as being his apprentice.

Edited January 21, 2012 by psychogobstopper

[BrandonSM]

I consider Anakin Skywalker to have become Sidious's apprentice the very moment that Skywalker decided to execute Darth Tyrannus, rather than take him prisoner for the Jedi Order and the Republic.

 

Even if one doesn't share that perspective, Skywalker certainly became Sidious's apprentice upon being declared Darth Vader. Under the Rule of Two, being given the Darth title doesn't mean that you're not an apprentice - it means that you are accepted as a Sith. Sidious, after all, very clearly refers to Maul as being his apprentice.

 

Yeah. I agree as well, Skywalker was already basically best friends Palps and he crossed over the dark side quite a few times already.

[LrdStryfe]

Going back to the original question, I believe the Jedi were tipped off about the Sith around 220 BBY. That's when, reportedly, the Jedi felt a tremor in the force which led to a lot of speculation about the resurgence of the Sith. Edited January 21, 2012 by LrdStryfe

[Socratic_Scribe]

Ok this might not be much of a contribution but since you guys seem to know a lot of stuff about stuff I figure this is a chance to clear something up. Was the practice of only having two sith lords at a time always the way sith were supposed to have done things (thus making all the sith lords in SWTOR contradict this) or, as some of you have seemed to indicate, was this a change that the order implemented some time before the movies but after the period of this game? It always seemed like this game was ignoring the assertion that there are ALWAYS two, because Yoda didn't say that there have been two at a time for some period of time.

[Barraca]

Ok this might not be much of a contribution but since you guys seem to know a lot of stuff about stuff I figure this is a chance to clear something up. Was the practice of only having two sith lords at a time always the way sith were supposed to have done things (thus making all the sith lords in SWTOR contradict this) or, as some of you have seemed to indicate, was this a change that the order implemented some time before the movies but after the period of this game? It always seemed like this game was ignoring the assertion that there are ALWAYS two, because Yoda didn't say that there have been two at a time for some period of time.

 

The rule of two was instigated by Darth Bane after the new sith wars which i think is a fairly long time after the time TOR is set in. Bane put this rule in to stop the infighting that had previously destroyed the sith by having one master and one apprentice. Part of the rule was that the apprentice would destroy the master and thus become the master themselves.

Sidious broke the rule of two by training Maul and giving him the title of Darth before he had killed his master. Though tons of sith had tried to break the rule allready.

(sorry for the essay )

[psychogobstopper]

Was the practice of only having two sith lords at a time always the way sith were supposed to have done things (thus making all the sith lords in SWTOR contradict this)[?] [...] It always seemed like this game was ignoring the assertion that there are ALWAYS two, because Yoda didn't say that there have been two at a time for some period of time.

This game isn't ignoring that assertion, so much as it is adhering to previous continuity established within the Expanded Universe both prior to and after the release of the Prequel Trilogy.

 

To expand on what Barraca posted:

 

24,500 BBY: First Great Schism - the Jedi Order is split between adherents of the Light Side of the Force, and proponents of the Dark Side. The Legions of Lettow are ultimately defeated.

 

7003-6900 BBY: Hundred-Year Darkness (aka Second Great Schism) - the Jedi Order is again split by those who insist on following the light, and those who wish to follow the dark. After a hundred years of conflict, the Jedi and Republic are victorious, and the Dark Jedi are exiled. The Dark Jedi vanish into the Unknown Regions, discover and conquer Korriban, declare themselves the Dark Lords of the Sith, and start to establish a Sith Empire.

 

5000 BBY: Great Hyperspace War - due to the discovery of the Sith Empire by two hyperspace astronavigators, the Empire and the Republic go to war. The Empire is ultimately defeated, with the remnants of its main fleet chased back to Korriban, which the Republic fleet lays to waste. Other remnants of the Empire flee deeper into the Unknown Regions under the leadership of Lord Vitiate. Dark Lord Naga Sadow enters self-exile on Yavin IV.

 

4000-3996 BBY: Great Sith War - Jedi Knights Exar Kun and Ulic Qel-Droma fall to the dark side and learn the ways of the Sith. Kun is named Dark Lord of the Sith by the spirit of Dark Lord Marka Ragnos; Qel-Droma is named Kun's apprentice. The war ends with Kun's spirit imprisoned on Yavin IV, Qel-Droma redeemed to the light, and Kun's Empire destroyed.

 

3959-3956 BBY: Jedi Civil War - returning from the Mandalorian Wars, Jedi Knights Revan and Malak declare themselves Dark Lords of the Sith and found a new Sith Empire, with the Republic military forces and Jedi who followed them in battle forming the basis for this empire. The war ends after Revan has been redeemed to the light and kills his old apprentice.

 

3954-3951 BBY: First Jedi Purge - Darth Traya, Darth Sion, and Darth Nihilus form the Sith Triumvirate, and consolidate the remnants of Revan's Empire under their control. The Sith attempt to wipe out all Jedi, but are ultimately defeated by Jedi Exile Meetra Surik. Surik's followers go on re-establish the Jedi Order.

 

3681-3653 BBY: Great Galactic War - the true Sith Empire returns, under the leadership of an apparently immortal Emperor. The war ultimately ends with a forced peace agreement after the Empire's forces attack Coruscant and destroy the Jedi Temple. The Jedi Order withdraws from Coruscant and returns to their ancient homeworld of Tython.

 

3653-3641 BBY: Cold War - the uneasy period of "peace" between the resurgent Sith Empire and the Republic, marked by border skirmishes and proxy wars.

 

2000-1000 BBY: New Sith Wars - starts due to the Jedi Order's Fourth Great Schism, in which Jedi Knight Phanius falls to the dark side, declares himself Darth Ruin, and establishes a New Sith Empire. The Jedi Army of Light ultimately defeats the Brotherhood of Darkness in the Seventh Battle of Ruusan. One of the few surviving Sith is known as Darth Bane.

 

1000 BBY: Darth Bane establishes the Order of the Sith Lords under the aegis of a Rule of Two. Believing that infighting among the Brotherhood of Darkness was as responsible for the defeat of the New Sith Empire as the Jedi Army of Light and Republic were, Bane decides that the path forward for the Sith is for there to be only two at any one time - a master and an apprentice - and to work from the shadows, rather than take on the Jedi directly.

[JeedaiFiresaber]

This game isn't ignoring that assertion, so much as it is adhering to previous continuity established within the Expanded Universe both prior to and after the release of the Prequel Trilogy.

 

To expand on what Barraca posted:

 

24,500 BBY: First Great Schism - the Jedi Order is split between adherents of the Light Side of the Force, and proponents of the Dark Side. The Legions of Lettow are ultimately defeated.

 

7003-6900 BBY: Hundred-Year Darkness (aka Second Great Schism) - the Jedi Order is again split by those who insist on following the light, and those who wish to follow the dark. After a hundred years of conflict, the Jedi and Republic are victorious, and the Dark Jedi are exiled. The Dark Jedi vanish into the Unknown Regions, discover and conquer Korriban, declare themselves the Dark Lords of the Sith, and start to establish a Sith Empire.

 

5000 BBY: Great Hyperspace War - due to the discovery of the Sith Empire by two hyperspace astronavigators, the Empire and the Republic go to war. The Empire is ultimately defeated, with the remnants of its main fleet chased back to Korriban, which the Republic fleet lays to waste. Other remnants of the Empire flee deeper into the Unknown Regions under the leadership of Lord Vitiate. Dark Lord Naga Sadow enters self-exile on Yavin IV.

 

4000-3996 BBY: Great Sith War - Jedi Knights Exar Kun and Ulic Qel-Droma fall to the dark side and learn the ways of the Sith. Kun is named Dark Lord of the Sith by the spirit of Dark Lord Marka Ragnos; Qel-Droma is named Kun's apprentice. The war ends with Kun's spirit imprisoned on Yavin IV, Qel-Droma redeemed to the light, and Kun's Empire destroyed.

 

3959-3956 BBY: Jedi Civil War - returning from the Mandalorian Wars, Jedi Knights Revan and Malak declare themselves Dark Lords of the Sith and found a new Sith Empire, with the Republic military forces and Jedi who followed them in battle forming the basis for this empire. The war ends after Revan has been redeemed to the light and kills his old apprentice.

 

3954-3951 BBY: First Jedi Purge - Darth Traya, Darth Sion, and Darth Nihilus form the Sith Triumvirate, and consolidate the remnants of Revan's Empire under their control. The Sith attempt to wipe out all Jedi, but are ultimately defeated by Jedi Exile Meetra Surik. Surik's followers go on re-establish the Jedi Order.

 

3681-3653 BBY: Great Galactic War - the true Sith Empire returns, under the leadership of an apparently immortal Emperor. The war ultimately ends with a forced peace agreement after the Empire's forces attack Coruscant and destroy the Jedi Temple. The Jedi Order withdraws from Coruscant and returns to their ancient homeworld of Tython.

 

3653-3641 BBY: Cold War - the uneasy period of "peace" between the resurgent Sith Empire and the Republic, marked by border skirmishes and proxy wars.

 

2000-1000 BBY: New Sith Wars - starts due to the Jedi Order's Fourth Great Schism, in which Jedi Knight Phanius falls to the dark side, declares himself Darth Ruin, and establishes a New Sith Empire. The Jedi Army of Light ultimately defeats the Brotherhood of Darkness in the Seventh Battle of Ruusan. One of the few surviving Sith is known as Darth Bane.

 

1000 BBY: Darth Bane establishes the Order of the Sith Lords under the aegis of a Rule of Two. Believing that infighting among the Brotherhood of Darkness was as responsible for the defeat of the New Sith Empire as the Jedi Army of Light and Republic were, Bane decides that the path forward for the Sith is for there to be only two at any one time - a master and an apprentice - and to work from the shadows, rather than take on the Jedi directly.

 

^what this guy said.

[Jorander]

^what this guy said.

 

Seconded.

[Jorander]

According to the Darth Plagueis novel, during the 1000s year rule of two, at an unknown time one of the rule of two sith converted to the jedi order, and took with him the secrets of sith soul transfer and force ghosting.

 

Well, now we know how the Jedi got their hands on Book of Sith: Secrets of the Dark Side. I was wondering how Yoda and Windu acquired that and held onto it long enough to write notes in it. Really, I thought that book was to be the source of that knowledge, apperantly the source of that knowledge was also likely the thing that brought that book into the Order.

Edited January 22, 2012 by Jorander