Expertise gear: Why its needed.

[Quelthela]

The urgemment needs to be raised for both activities. (PVE and PVP)

 

If the expertise need to be removed (in order to give equal fights between PVP casual vs PVP hardcore players) then why not remove all stats and gear from the game in order to give equal oportunites to all players?

 

The creator of this threat well said that this is going against the MMO progress idea.

 

Anyway.... I believe that this urgemment is getting popular mostly due to the fractured EGO of casual PVP players (Probably hardcore PVE) that have been destroyed in the WZ.

 

I will sugest to chill out and just enjoy the game with serenity, when you start to build gear on PVP you will have difficulties but this is the best moment to elaborate your strategies against each class! After hours of practice you will acquire a gear AND skill that forms your PVP style!

 

 

PVP Rules:

1) Stay calm at all times.

2) Learn your enemy and your self.

3) Elaborate tactics/approach.

4) Build your PVP gear.

5) Enjoy!

 

Advance PVP suggestions:

 

1)Find a fix group of ppl to PVP.

3) Learn your group.

2) Elaborate group tactics/approach.

5) Enjoy!

 

Edited January 20, 2012 by Quelthela

[Dalnar]

You lack comprehension? You comment without reading?

 

Intelligence > mindless posting.

 

If the pve player has better gear than I, how is that 'equal footing'?

 

So yes, you need gear to compete in mmos.. if 2 equally skilled players fight, one naked the other with gear on.. guess which one wins.

 

Well funny you write about lack of comprehension. If there is the SAME PROGRESSION GEAR for both PVE and PVP, NOONE CAN HAVE BETTER GEAR. Same purples, just obtained with different means. You get reward for playing, not bank full of useless sets to keep you playing.

 

Both PvE and PvP player can achieve same gear. But the PvPer will win, because he has more skill in PvP. He will win on equal footing, not because of some crutch stat on his gear, but because of his skill.

Edited January 20, 2012 by Dalnar

[elyetis]

I'm not a big pvp player in mmo in general, but Guild wars proved that the op is wrong.

 

Sure you could get better gear than other by playing more, but the difference was minimal ( like 1-2 PV out of 500, etc. ), and most people didn't play pvp ( or pve btw) for Progression but because it was actually fun to play.

 

If the only way to keep people playing something is by reward ( progression, etc ) then there is clearly a problem either in the game ( ie, not fun enough yo make people want to play it ), or the players mentality.

[Cynan_Ski]

Well funny you write about lack of comprehension. If there is the SAME PROGRESSION GEAR for both PVE and PVP, NOONE CAN HAVE BETTER GEAR. Same purples, just obtained with different means. You get reward for playing, not bank full of useless sets to keep you playing.

 

Both PvE and PvP player can achieve same gear. But the PvPer will win, because he has more skill in PvP. He will win on equal footing, not because of some crutch stat on his gear, but because of his skill.

 

I have been trying to explain that for the first part of this thread....

[Merras]

Expertise should go away.

 

You say expertise gear is the reward for progression - but this is not progression just farming.

 

Most of today's battlemasters are not really good pvp-ers: they just farmed low level players in warzones for a month and achieved enough commendations and bags.

 

Solution is simple: no expertise gear. Just make gears which can be achieved in PvE, PvP, crafting.

 

Crafting is pretty much useless now, because PvP gear is better.

[Cabdriver-]

Well funny you write about lack of comprehension. If there is the SAME PROGRESSION GEAR for both PVE and PVP, NOONE CAN HAVE BETTER GEAR. Same purples, just obtained with different means. You get reward for playing, not bank full of useless sets to keep you playing.

 

Both PvE and PvP player can achieve same gear. But the PvPer will win, because he has more skill in PvP. He will win on equal footing, not because of some crutch stat on his gear, but because of his skill.

 

You do understand that this will lead to obscure behaviour, right? Players will always go for the easiest way to obtain gear. Always. If you make the exact same gear obtainable through both content, all guilds pushing for world first/server first/whatever will blow their raid locket the first day to get their 10 pieces or whatever of gear, before they feel obliged to chain-farm warzones until they are completely decked in the top tier. This is now MANDATORY in order to compete at the highest level of PvE. You see how stupid this is?

 

Furthermore, all the dumb-*** casual idiots will start flocking the warzones like mad, we start getting afk-leechers, losing-teams (yes, this is common) og god knows all kind of irrational behaviour because gear is obtainable easier. In the end, we all run around in the same gear which is farmed in a warzone while watching TV and eating pizza.

[Dalnar]

Are you saying, we do not have AFK leechers and all those unwanted types in PvP ? And are you saying we do not already all run in the same gear ? Are we playing the same game ? Maybe you missed everyone waving with their purple or cyan lightsabers. Or have you seen some battlemaster with green one ? Edited January 20, 2012 by Dalnar

[Thellian]

Your strawman argument is flawed.

 

No one has stated that PvP must be 100% balanced to be competitive. That is YOUR strawman argument.

 

What they have argued is that a pointless stat that does nothing but give an advantage to those that have it, is pointless.

 

Someone who works harder will have more Hp, more endurance, more strength, more crit rating, more defence etc etc etc.

 

Why add another stat that boosts this even further?

 

Two people running the 100 metres race, one has trained harder than the other, for longer, so we should give him a motorbike to use in the race as well?

 

Of course not.

 

Just because you trained harder, and for longer, doesn't mean that on the day you will win. If it did, we simply wouldn't bother with the race, we would just look at who trained longer and harder.

 

Without expertise, there is a fight, who knows who might win.

 

With expertise....the person with it will win FAR too often.

 

It makes no sense and you wasted a long post creating an argument that was never made.

 

This is some interestingly flawed logic..

 

running analogies don't work too well for this.. you used a motorbike so we'll go with that.

 

Driver 1 has a motorbike, its pretty fast, and turns great.

 

Driver 2 has a motorbike, its really fast, but turns poorly.

 

Driver 1 drives on mostly curvy roads, his bike is perfect for them.

 

Drive 2 drives on mostly straight roads, his bike is perfect for them.

 

Driver 1 does poorly on Driver 2's course.

 

Driver 2 does poorly on Driver 1's course.

 

They can both drive the course, but Driver one will finish slower on Driver 2's course, because his bike is slower.

 

Driver 2 will finish slower on Driver 1's course, because he has to slow down more to make the turns.

 

They both have respectable times, because both of their bikes are great.

 

Driver 3 has a very poor bike. Its slow, and turns poorly.

 

Driver 3 does poorly on all courses.

 

See how this works? I dont think I can spell it out any clearer than that..

 

Expertise gear vs someone in greens, person in greens gets rocked.

 

High end pve gear vs someone in greens, person in greens gets rocked.

 

High end pve gear vs someone in Expertise gear. The battle does weigh in the favor of the person with pvp gear, but the difference isn't clear cut. Skill can determine the winner, as the pve player does hit harder (from stats) than the pvp player. The pvp player however gets the bonus against players, so he takes a bit less damage and deals a bit more.

 

on average, 10%.

 

Thats 100 dmg for every 1000. If full pve gear gives you 20% more damage than full pvp gear (on mobs) then they are 100% even.

[Dalnar]

Notice how in the post with example above, there is no sign of driving skill involved Just compares their bikes, aka gear... Edited January 20, 2012 by Dalnar

[TaishoD]

Progression is a concept that really shouldn't be in PvP. In PVE, it's fine, but in PVP? PvP should be a player's skill against another player's skill, not how long the other person has grinded.

 

It's for this reason that I'll probably be alt-hopping until Bioware fix the expertise problem. 1-49 PvP is fun, because there it's possible for a lvl 15 player to kill a lvl 30 one, all because that player has better skills. THAT is how PvP should be.

[Merras]

You do understand that this will lead to obscure behaviour, right? Players will always go for the easiest way to obtain gear.

 

Exactly. That's why superior PvP gear should go away.

 

Because it can be obtain by easy farming: just farm the weaker characters and u have the most superior gear.

 

 

 

Always. If you make the exact same gear obtainable through both content, all guilds pushing for world first/server first/whatever will blow their raid locket the first day to get their 10 pieces or whatever of gear, before they feel obliged to chain-farm warzones until they are completely decked in the top tier. This is now MANDATORY in order to compete at the highest level of PvE. You see how stupid this is?

 

 

Simply not true.

 

Organizing a big raid (even: organizing a constant farming!) is much-much harder than just click to a WZ-button.

 

The Red Reaper flashpoint was the last one I could do - because there is no usable LFG system and the guild is really-really fragmented: there are some players who done the most FP-s, and they don't want to do again, and there are players who are beginners now.

 

 

Furthermore, all the dumb-*** casual idiots will start flocking the warzones like mad, we start getting afk-leechers, losing-teams (yes, this is common) og god knows all kind of irrational behaviour because gear is obtainable easier. In the end, we all run around in the same gear which is farmed in a warzone while watching TV and eating pizza.

 

And this is another point to REMOVE PvP gear.

Edited January 20, 2012 by Merras

[Senthiri]

Well funny you write about lack of comprehension. If there is the SAME PROGRESSION GEAR for both PVE and PVP, NOONE CAN HAVE BETTER GEAR. Same purples, just obtained with different means. You get reward for playing, not bank full of useless sets to keep you playing.

 

Both PvE and PvP player can achieve same gear. But the PvPer will win, because he has more skill in PvP. He will win on equal footing, not because of some crutch stat on his gear, but because of his skill.

 

The common chant I have heard concerning making the same gear available through both PvP and PvE is that those who do PvE content complain about how easy it is to get the gear through PvP. They also complain that they now feel 'forced' to do PvP to get their PvE gear fast enough. How do you plan to answer that complaint?

 

If you really wanted to make things 'balanced' in PvP across all gear here's what you'd do: All damage done to players by players does a % of the target player's health pool. All heals restore a % of the target player's health pool. All of the other stats are fixed to a specific value (I.E. crit % is fixed, surge % is fixed, haste % is fixed etc).

 

This removes the whole gear issue. You could literally walk into a WZ naked and would be just as effective because gear no longer matters. If you want gear to matter, then you need to address the feuding between the PvE and PvP community.

[Thellian]

Notice how in the post with example above, there is no sign of driving skill involved Just compares their bikes, aka gear...

 

The thread is about gear. Its about the existence of pvp gear. We have already said that skill is the deciding factor between 2 people on equal footing.

[Cabdriver-]

Alot of you talk about 'why pvp gear exists' and seem to debate it from a purely PvE VS. PvP perspective... but I bet the majority of players out there tend to do both PvE and PvP content... I know with friends I want to raid and I also really enjoy pvp... we are albeit a little slow moving so raiding hasn't started yet... But the question i pose to all of you is...

 

How is it fair that i have to acquire TWO gear sets? So that i can do what I enjoy, which is enjoy both aspects of the game... they are not mutually exclusive, and treating them as such is what truly makes the game a grind. In WoW (not relating this to that in any way but the grind) I had to acquire 3 sets of gear at a minimum to be able to play a paladin. That isn't fun

 

Gear should be much harder to acquire, last longer between major patches/expansions and feel much more rewarding to get... A removal of pvp stats would facilitate that, so that either path of progression took 4x the work if not more for each piece of gear, and you felt better about getting it,

 

TL;DR

 

PvP and PvE not mutually exclusive. And it makes for a crap game when someone tries to enjoy both only to have to grind out 2 gear sets just to play, the time investment isn't worth it.... equalize pvp and pve gear and make them much harder to get.

 

More than anything so far, seeing expertise in the game after i installed it was the thing that has brought me closest to walking away.

 

Oh boy, wow.

 

Here we go again with "how is it fair that I have to farm two sets" soap opera. It will take you maybe 3 weeks with very little PvP to get around 60 bags. Thats the dailies, weeklies and an occasional 800 WZ-commendation bag. Yet you are still whining and moaning about the time and effort being unfair?

 

And then we get to the best part (I fell off the chair laughing). Suddenly you want it take FOUR TIMES LONGER to obtain gear? Haha - first it is not fair to obtain two sets - but if you first have to farm for one consolidated set, you want to invest four times the effort all of a sudden. The PvP sets you desperately need in order to play with your friends is even easier obtainable than i WoW, and that says a lot.

 

Sounds to me like you need to get your priorities sorted.

 

And to all people who want to "PvP on an equal basis" - go install CS 1.6 and start with 100HP and a body armour each round, or go play DotA. It is suicide for a subscription based MMO make all players equivalent in the warzones.

[Dalnar]

The common chant I have heard concerning making the same gear available through both PvP and PvE is that those who do PvE content complain about how easy it is to get the gear through PvP. They also complain that they now feel 'forced' to do PvP to get their PvE gear fast enough. How do you plan to answer that complaint?

 

If you really wanted to make things 'balanced' in PvP across all gear here's what you'd do: All damage done to players by players does a % of the target player's health pool. All heals restore a % of the target player's health pool. All of the other stats are fixed to a specific value (I.E. crit % is fixed, surge % is fixed, haste % is fixed etc).

 

This removes the whole gear issue. You could literally walk into a WZ naked and would be just as effective because gear no longer matters. If you want gear to matter, then you need to address the feuding between the PvE and PvP community.

 

People complaint only because of their greedy nature. If you are dedicated raider, you couldn't care less if someone has same stat gear than some pvper. Well because it has another look that clearly distinguish their achievements.

 

I never said, there should be no gear progression. There should be reward for playing. I just said, I see no reason why the top gear should have same stats (with different look).

[Baudrillard]

You mean natural carrot on stick called tier ? the crutch for devs to keep people subscribed ?

 

Noone ever explained why there needs to be separate progression sets aka different stats. Its not like you pve or pvp, you PLAY. Doesn't matter how you PLAY, you should get equal progression.

The separate mentality is stupid. Why should I be less effective in pvp ,when I decide to help friend in pve and miss a chance for daily to get another piece of pvp gear? why should I be less effective in pve, when I love pvp but well I don't like be raid slave?

 

I understand the need for gear progression. Just don't understand why there needs to be different sets ? If sets acquired from pvp and pve are equal then noone has the advantage and we all get reward for playing the game...

 

Separate gear adds NOTHING to the game, just creates "We" and "them" mentality about pve and pvp, while devs have less work creating something interesting, because the carrot on stick model works so well.

 

1. I dont need I carrot. I stay subscribed as long as I enjoy the game. Matter of fact, my subscription run out, I didnt buy a game card and I hang around on the forums while thinking about continuing to play the game or not. Why? Because the PvP-Enviroment, with Ability Delay and dropping FPS in WZ is not enjoyable for me as meele.

 

2. Why there needs to be a difference? I can give you a reason

 

Imagine PvP and PvE-Gear-Progression being equal and no difference between the gear. As somebody above said as example: for 20 hours of PvE you get 1 piece, for 20 hours of PvP you get 1 piece. If you play, lets say, 6 hours of PvP per day, you get 1 piece in 3.3 days

 

Now imagine some hardcore gamers playing 14 hours a day. In 3 days, the will get 2 pieces.

 

So having PvE and PvP-Gear being equal allows hardcore gamers to get an advantage very fast. And people are allready crying about hardcore gamers and premades owning them

 

Cause Skill > Gear. Right. But on equal skill, Gear makes the difference.

 

Protection of the PvPers, ok? This could be a reason. An explanation. It's about how the company wants the game to be.

 

Anyway, with the progression-rate above you can get your PvP and PvE-Gear in 2-3 months. Thats shorter than the time I gave for the lifespan of a Tier (6 Months). So enough time to enjoy both aspects of the game, without thinking about progression.

 

Funny facts:

Nobody of you is questioning the need for progression. Why should there be progression? Why should there be gear.

Nobody is questioning the need for rank 60 to be able to wear the best PvP-Gear

 

You just come around and ask that PvE and PvP-Gear should be equal. That PvE and PvP is one game. You know what, they could make it being so

 

The game is what it is, it could be other way around, and I doubt you guys would be happy

Maybe, coming from WoW, I dont know another world

 

Maybe you wise guys will come up one day with the perfect solution. Though I doubt it hard. I am out of here...

[Cynan_Ski]

This is the part i don't understand why have your 10% increase to players and not even stats? I know you are fighting to keep expertise and in all reality its gonna stay (highly convinced Devs don't care either way). You talk about PvE players having a increase vs Creatures and PvP vs Players but if it was just flat out no increase in any aspect wouldn't that work?

 

I just failing to grasp the concept of why a 10% vs players is needed when basically the gear could be changed to have same stats as the same (tier) gear.

 

I could fall under that you want your job easier and you earned it?

[Thellian]

This is the part i don't understand why have your 10% increase to players and not even stats? I know you are fighting to keep expertise and in all reality its gonna stay (highly convinced Devs don't care either way). You talk about PvE players having a increase vs Creatures and PvP vs Players but if it was just flat out no increase in any aspect wouldn't that work?

 

I just failing to grasp the concept of why a 10% vs players is needed when basically the gear could be changed to have same stats as the same (tier) gear.

 

I could fall under that you want your job easier and you earned it?

 

If you take the carrot off the stick, the horse stops walking. Remove the incentive to play and people stop playing. If you make the gear even, pve players feel the need to pvp to stay competitve in pve. This is unfair to them. PvP players feel the need to pve to stay competitive. This is unfair to them. It hurts everyone.

[Cabdriver-]

 

 

Simply not true.

 

Organizing a big raid (even: organizing a constant farming!) is much-much harder than just click to a WZ-button.

 

The Red Reaper flashpoint was the last one I could do - because there is no usable LFG system and the guild is really-really fragmented: there are some players who done the most FP-s, and they don't want to do again, and there are players who are beginners now.

 

What are you talking about here? I mentioned that high-end guilds will be forced into warzones because they need the gear in order to stay competitive in PvE. If the gear becomes streamlined across PvP/PvE, guilds pursuing world firsts will be forced into warzones to farm gear outside of their raid lockout.

 

And your point about flashpoints and LFG-system is beyond my understanding.

[Thellian]

What are you talking about here? I mentioned that high-end guilds will be forced into warzones because they need the gear in order to stay competitive in PvE. If the gear becomes streamlined across PvP/PvE, guilds pursuing world firsts will be forced into warzones to farm gear outside of their raid lockout.

 

And your point about flashpoints and LFG-system is beyond my understanding.

 

His wasn't a terribly coherent post.. best to just move past it.

[Cynan_Ski]

PvP players feel the need to pve to stay competitive. This is unfair to them. It hurts everyone.

 

How would PvP players feel need to PvE if more players are coming in progression in gear should speed up.

 

What are you talking about here? I mentioned that high-end guilds will be forced into warzones because they need the gear in order to stay competitive in PvE. If the gear becomes streamlined across PvP/PvE, guilds pursuing world firsts will be forced into warzones to farm gear outside of their raid lockout.

 

And your point about flashpoints and LFG-system is beyond my understanding.

 

Who is forcing them?

 

And also if they do PvP wont that make the WZ's pop faster and help the players with skill progress quicker?

Edited January 20, 2012 by Cynan_Ski

[Almghty_gir]

bolded the part I lol'd at.

 

So the pvp gear will be worse, but its all even.. except that pvp gear is worse.. oh and having it still gives you an advantage against new players... actually this a horrible solution...

 

The pvp stat exists so that the stats on pvp gear can be lower. You shave off some health, survive-ability stats and damage stats, to replace them with a pvp only stat that should come out as ~even to the stats you shaved.

 

sorry, i guess i should have written "will be equal IN PVP". i figured people would be able to work it out for themselves?

[Dalindran]

Maybe it is because my pvp experience started way back in the grand daddy of all MMO's Ultima Online, but I have always thought the notion of stats like expertise and resilence were a crutch. I have always thought grinding to get gear specifically for pvp was silly, and I have always believed the penultimate reward for pvping was seeing my enemies fall before me, nothing more. If you pvp for any reason other than killing other players, you are not a true pvp'er and should really stop calling yourself one because you clearly don't understand what pvp means.

 

Back in those days the pvp environment was balanced, whether you were hardcore or casual. There was nothing separating one player from another other than the skill with which one wielded ones character. I am sorry but all these modern "techniques" and "reward" systems are nothing but crutches and carrots designed to help the unskilled feel mediocre and the "no lifers" feel some sense of accomplishment for spending all that time cooped up in their mom's basement. They are meant to keep you paying a sub, and have literally nothing whatsoever to do with pvp itself.

 

Back in UO my only reward for killing you as a player was that I could take your stuff, and more importantly I could collect your head as proof of killing you. Back in those days I built 3 little houses as museums for my victims with a single chair in the middle and the walls lined floor to ceiling with the heads of my victims. You could come and sit down, look at your head on one of the walls, and ponder how to beat me next time we crossed paths. What I earned for my time spent pvping back then was the sense of accomplishment knowing the sheer terror of my opponents when they knew I was in the vicinity and likely going to kill them. What more does a true pvp'er really need? Nothing!

 

That is how PvP used to be, that is what PvP should be, and to suggest you need anything more than this is to admit you are just another person looking for a prize for eating the most cracker jacks, and that doesn't make you a pvp'er. So many people today call themselves pvp'ers but in reality they are pve carebears who don't have enough time to raid so they look for an easier alternative to get their loot pinatas and try to turn pvp into that. It is a sad state of affairs, that I have seen get worse not better over the years since UO started this whole genre. Nuff said.

 

Have fun !

Edited January 20, 2012 by Dalindran

[Dalnar]

+to Dalindran, seems we are the same vintage.

[Cynan_Ski]

I think you took my head...