Over 15 yrs of MMOs and still we have level-gated content?

[Crashloop]

Themepark MMO. Thats how they roll. Thats how they will roll.

Tired of this? Try sandbox. Only way to get something innovative as only sandboxes make innovative things.

 

This is too true..

[GamerInDallas]

I can't imagine the game designers didn't at least consider mobs spawning based on your abilities. That's basically game design 101. I would have to think they considered it and decided not to do it for some reason.

 

But you are right, I'm annoyed by the railroad track/theme-park they've got us on. An MMORPG should be a "world", and not a theme park. So, you should really be able to go at least most places and get content appropriate for your level.

[Halofax]

Im pretty sure you posted 4 other flame threads yesterday.

[Indrikk]

But how will they stop people from just doing the "endgame" content from level 10? If this was applied here, the trend, I believe, would be for people to go through the class quests swiftly and be stuck with endgame at level, say, 30. I'm not 50 yet but from what I hear around the forums endgame is quite lacking/buggy in TOR, which in turn means less people will go through a leveling (in most cases - long) process which in turn is revenue for Bioware.

 

On a side note, having invested 100 mil into this game, this could have been developed but linearity is chosen as a safe route when large investments are in place. Personally I'm fine with linearity, although I'd enjoy what you suggested a lot more, so long as it is smooth and bug-free in terms of game play. Something I believe TOR is not but I can't really judge before I get to 50 and do some endgame.

[twinionx]

I see the main criticism of TOR being that it does nothing new. While I can accept that a multi-million dollar is best done by playing it safe initially that doesn't mean things can't change post launch to have TOR step into new horizons for RPGs and MMORPGs.

 

I'm not sure any of you have experienced this in other MMOs but I feel that developers need to move away from closing access to content because they are locked into this idea of levels. I think it is time to explore something which other MMOs have touched upon - scaled content and enemies.

 

The idea is simple. Your character progresses in levels themselves. Stats go up, new skills unlock but you never out-level any of the enemies or content. What is intended to be a tough boss is always a tough boss. The way this worked in other MMOs was done through damage scaling, hit are registered as percentages of damage rather than raw numbers and same applied to when the NPCs hit you. This way a level 10 hit a mob for 10% damage and a level 50 does the exact same attack and hits for the exact same amount.

 

While this is obviously a crude example due to the fact that additional skills equals higher over all DPS and equipment becomes a factor too the issue is that with the right tweaking an RPG essentially becomes level-less. All content is up for grabs all the time and it is always challenging and worthwhile.

 

Imagine TOR where the second you step into your starship any planet is viable for adventuring on because content is scaled. You could hop off to Belsavis at level 10 and be able to complete the content and then swing back around to Coruscant and find it is all good fun. No more linear progression except for the class storyline.

 

It would be a bold move and would require a complete reworking of how missions reward XP and gear would need to be revamped entirely. But a level-less RPG becomes more open ended and content is never out-leveled.

 

With scaled mobs and missions, there wouldn't even be need for a level cap. Imagine that! Level 230 Jedi Sentinal LFT!

 

I'm a amateur game designer and that is close to what I have in mind for my hobby MMO game (until the day I can get multi million funding).

 

Unfortunately, I don't think people will go for that if it is not an established IP.

 

The problem is with consumer. If consumers keep buying the same kind of trash, they will keep getting it until no one buys it anymore.

 

If you want new ideas, you have to support those small unknown games that dares to implement new ideas and let them be profitable and grow.

 

Remember, Blizzard used to be a small company that created a copy-cat product called warcraft which was far inferior to the then leader command and conquer. Look what happened to each franchise.

 

As for those who think such a game system will not work, basically, what he is describing is end game content.

[twinionx]

But how will they stop people from just doing the "endgame" content from level 10? If this was applied here, the trend, I believe, would be for people to go through the class quests swiftly and be stuck with endgame at level, say, 30. I'm not 50 yet but from what I hear around the forums endgame is quite lacking/buggy in TOR, which in turn means less people will go through a leveling (in most cases - long) process which in turn is revenue for Bioware.

 

On a side note, having invested 100 mil into this game, this could have been developed but linearity is chosen as a safe route when large investments are in place. Personally I'm fine with linearity, although I'd enjoy what you suggested a lot more, so long as it is smooth and bug-free in terms of game play. Something I believe TOR is not but I can't really judge before I get to 50 and do some endgame.

 

Why even have this concept of "end game content" in an MMO at all?

 

Designers are telling players you should not have fun until you hit 50?

 

Frankly, I felt the bolstering effect of warzones is one of the best idea ever to come out of warhammer. You don't have to wait till you are 50 to enjoy scenario based pvp.

 

Since SWTOR is a story based MMO, then the main purpose of going through various locations is STORY (and gaining skills and maybe better and better looking gear)

[twinionx]

A big no thanks from me.

 

I like the idea of getting tougher, I like seeing some fights easy and some tough, I like the sense of progression. With what the OP suggests, I could just keep fighting the same mob spawn over and over and over. Why even go anywhere?

 

When you're playing an MMO, you'll kill hundreds of thousands of mobs in the course of leveling up. If the average fight against even levels takes me, say 15 seconds, I do NOT want every fight taking that long. I want to feel OP'd sometimes, and drop them all in 3 seconds.

 

If I get pwned by a boss, I really, really want to know that I can come back in a few levels and return the favor. I do not want to level a bunch, and then the fight be just as tough.

 

I wouldn't mind a system like City of Heroes, though, where you could set instances to various difficulties; easy, average, hard, very hard, with each offering tougher mobs, more experience and better loot drops. I'd like to see all instances with this option, instead of just at level 50.

 

SWTOR has already implemented different difficulty mobs that can give you those feelings already, AT EXISTING LEVEL.

 

You don't have to bully a level 1 mob just to feel power. You already feel powerful killing those normal mobs. Feels a bit challenging killing strong silver mobs. Sweating when confronting elite gold mobs and fearing for your life looking at champion diamond mobs.

 

You don't need artificial leveling to enjoy that.

 

Besides, as you level, the mob level, is the same as no leveling or mob having the same level as you. The difference is now instead of going to only Zone A and B for strong mobs, now every zone can have strong or weak mobs.

[Indrikk]

Why even have this concept of "end game content" in an MMO at all?

 

Designers are telling players you should not have fun until you hit 50?

 

Frankly, I felt the bolstering effect of warzones is one of the best idea ever to come out of warhammer. You don't have to wait till you are 50 to enjoy scenario based pvp.

 

Since SWTOR is a story based MMO, then the main purpose of going through various locations is STORY (and gaining skills and maybe better and better looking gear)

 

I kind of agree with this, personally I haven't seen this in an MMO (rather limited experience) it would be refreshing to see it in play. But then again, it's all down to the developers and the right set of mind. Perhaps this was a topic of discussion pre-development but the investors didn't want to risk with something innovative while relying on the people who made warhammer/a bunch of single player games (no disrespect there, great SP games). I'd love to see something like this implemented but I don't see it happening here.

[twinionx]

Hell, at that point, where's the incentive to even go anywhere?

 

Mob scaling is generally a huge step backwards, IMHO. There's a certain feeling of heroism in beating a mob you couldn't have come within a mile of 10 levels ago. Beating some thing any random noob could knock over with a broken stick? Not quite so awe-inspiring.

 

Incentive is the same as end game :

 

* Gear

* Title

* Play Experience

* and in the case of SWTOR, storyline.

 

I like the OP idea, because that is how I would design an MMO. But I don't think Bioware will be so radical, given its huge investment in the game.

 

I'm not complaining though.

 

Anyone who can make such a system work will be the next wow killer because they have just discovered how to make end game work.

 

Again, what the OP is suggesting is basically end game content (imagine the low level planets becoming "heroic planets)

[twinionx]

I kind of agree with this, personally I haven't seen this in an MMO (rather limited experience) it would be refreshing to see it in play. But then again, it's all down to the developers and the right set of mind. Perhaps this was a topic of discussion pre-development but the investors didn't want to risk with something innovative while relying on the people who made warhammer/a bunch of single player games (no disrespect there, great SP games). I'd love to see something like this implemented but I don't see it happening here.

 

Oh, you will see something like this implemented but it will be from small developing house with unknown IP. Question is, will you (and any players) try it out in the first place when there are so many MMOs vying for gamer attention?

 

If I could find investor to invest in me, I would start-up a company to develop an MMO with this "end game concept".

[Mephismo]

My issue again, with posts like this, is that Bioware never hid the fact that the game has levels, and level gated content. They said over and over again they are not trying to break the mold. Then you have people who hyped this game in their own mind to be some insanely ground breaking thing.

 

If you thought the game would be anything more than Bioware said it would be, that's your fault.

 

That’s because some cant see further that the end of their nose.

Its all about look at me ! I have this great idea.

 

The OP needs to start his own company and produce this innovative type of game himself.

[twinionx]

My friend and I are waiting to play that game,..I have no interest in GW2, outside of technical interest.

 

 

How can a level 10 be on the same planet as a level 100(example)?

Can they help each other?

 

 

/cheers

 

I have thought about this design problem and in an MMO, unlike Single player game, you cannot do scaling.

 

The answer lies in what is now "end-game".

 

How can a freshly level max level char co-exist in the same zone as a max-tiered raid max level char?

 

By having a small difference in terms of power but not so large that they cannot quest together.

 

So if a decked out max level char has, say 150% more power than then freshie max level, then they can quest (and even pvp, just that the freshie has a lower chance of defeating the veteran)

 

BTW, all these are already happening in pvp warzones. As a level 10 char, I could kill a level 50 under certain circumstances.

 

At the end of the day, it really depends on whether a designer is willing to risk designs not from the mainstream.

[EternalFinality]

Scaling enemies is just a bad idea, plain and simple.

[Cormey]

They've pretty much put scaled enemies throughout all of STO now, it's why I don't play it anymore.

 

Not too fun coming up against a group of scaled mobs that are invulnerable because the devs didn't think of how they'd play out at every level. That was fine when it was just the crappy exploration clusters, but through the whole game? no thankyou.

 

I happen to enjoy levelling and knowing there's places out there that i can't handle yet and places i can tear through.

[TheSwamper]

SWTOR has already implemented different difficulty mobs that can give you those feelings already, AT EXISTING LEVEL.

 

You don't have to bully a level 1 mob just to feel power. You already feel powerful killing those normal mobs. Feels a bit challenging killing strong silver mobs. Sweating when confronting elite gold mobs and fearing for your life looking at champion diamond mobs.

 

You don't need artificial leveling to enjoy that.

 

Besides, as you level, the mob level, is the same as no leveling or mob having the same level as you. The difference is now instead of going to only Zone A and B for strong mobs, now every zone can have strong or weak mobs.

 

I don't think you're getting my point. Sometimes (often), I want to do quests where I'm 2-3 levels above the mobs, and respectively more powerful for it. Other times, I want to take on a mob 2-3 levels above me, just for the challenge.

 

It's not enough for me that I can do a level 21 quest at level 21, not usually. There are so many quests in this game, I don't just want to defeat them, I want to crush them.

 

I don't want fights against standard mobs to always be the same difficulty. Sometimes, I WANT to overlevel them and one-shot a group of three. I find that fun!

 

Most of the time, I'd rather wait until I'm a few levels above a 2man and solo it, rather than wait around for a second person. I want to do this even if I am capable of soloing it at level. I prefer the pace of killing things more quickly.

 

Generally, I'll save the at-level challenges for FPs and WPs. I like the stories, I like the cutscenes for every quest, but there's soooooo much killing to be done, I don't enjoy the pace of if at even level.

[Sephendrine]

OP,

 

When Skyrim came out, their forums were flooded with people crying about how you could go everywhere from the beginning and how awful that was and how much better it would be if some areas were level restricted so they would be saved for later.

 

In other words, no matter the game, no matter how it's designed, a certain number of people are going to wish it was different than it actually is.

 

And now you're here doing the same thing. You know what? Nothing is stopping you from setting out on the path of creating your own game. Every game ever made had at one point someone who said, "I'm going to make a game the way I want it to be." And they did.

 

Good luck.

[miliways]

TOR does nothing new? LOLOLOL

 

How about THE STORY, which is the MAIN FOCUS, which no other MMO has even come close to.

 

You think a theme park design is more fun? STAR WARS GALAXIES HAD THAT. I played it and while it was "kinda" cool, fun for a little bit, this is a THOUSAND times more engaging.

 

If you don't like the story, go play a different game. You aren't the target audience.

 

This is KotOR Online.

[miliways]

I have thought about this design problem and in an MMO, unlike Single player game, you cannot do scaling.

 

The answer lies in what is now "end-game".

 

How can a freshly level max level char co-exist in the same zone as a max-tiered raid max level char?

 

By having a small difference in terms of power but not so large that they cannot quest together.

 

So if a decked out max level char has, say 150% more power than then freshie max level, then they can quest (and even pvp, just that the freshie has a lower chance of defeating the veteran)

 

BTW, all these are already happening in pvp warzones. As a level 10 char, I could kill a level 50 under certain circumstances.

 

At the end of the day, it really depends on whether a designer is willing to risk designs not from the mainstream.

 

If you're interested in a game like that, go check out The Secret World.

Everybody starts the game already max level. You can get new gear and a few new abilities, but you aren't made insanely more powerful over time. The game is more skill-capped.

 

It looks kinda cool.

 

But that said, I'm perfectly happy with TOR. If you guys don't like this, go look at other games. Not everything can be everything

[WWWYYZERDD]

I disagree with the OP. Scaling in an RPG has never been fun for me. For me, it takes away any sense of progression. I don't want to be able to go defeat any monster I want from the very beginning of the game to the very end of the game. I like having something to work toward.

[ddecay]

what happens when a level 50 groups with a level 30?

[Xabos]

TOR does nothing new? LOLOLOL

 

...........

 

This is KotOR Online.

 

Doesn't that mean it's not doing anything trailblazingly new?

[vindianajones]

Wouldn't you just have to instance everything and make the entire game group/single player at this point though? If every single mob scaled, and you're standing on Belsavis at level 10 wanting to fight the same group of mobs a level 45 is there to fight, how does the game decide what their level is going to be if you both attack, or what their default level is prior to anyone touching them?

 

A game would have to be designed from the ground up with a very solid system in place for this to work. Not to mention the issues you pointed out with gear, among other things. I think it's just too much to ask for.

[Mineria]

what happens when a level 50 groups with a level 30?

 

Same as what happens when a max level goes to newbie area in RIFT and starts to hit invasion bosses.

 

Scaling in a persistent environment can and will be very bad, specially on PvP servers for areas where both sides can roam.

Someone said ArenaNet is going to do it in GW2, wrong, they do something that might remind of it, but it's not scaling the monsters except for group size.

The other thing they got on the table is player to environment scaling, so that a lower level player can go with a higher level friend, but that will then have a restriction concerning skill availability.

 

Since WoW, so far Arena Net is the only company that dares to come with their own definitions on how their mmo should be, the rest is close up to what we know, even SWTOR.

I'm not saying SWTOR is a bad game, it just isn't more innovative than many others out there regarding it's "mmo" content.

Edited January 20, 2012 by Mineria

[TheJediCouncil]

Yes, this idea, it's horrible. - Sanjay from Office Space