acheros Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 (edited) I have noticed that people tend to assume all assassins are sorcs or tanks. But maybe you should state that you are deception speced in your post. Then, if people tell you to use an ability that isn't in your build, you can safely call them an idiot and disreguard anything else they say. ^.^ Until I got Talos, I occasionally had some minor troubles with some parts of my class quest. One thing it seems a lot of people neglect to do is interrupt. Our base interrupt is on a twelve second cool-down but we also have a stun (electrocute), a cc (whirlwind), and a knock-back (overload) that interrupt enemy casts. Use them. Our survivability isn't amazing but if you put on Dark Charge, you gain a lot more mitigation and don't really sacrifice too much damage. Once you get Talos, the class quests are easy as pie. Throw on Dark Charge and destroy the enemy while Talos hangs out at range and heals you. If you find Talos has gotten behind on healing, whirlwind the enemy and let him catch up. Also, I keep all his damage abilities turned off for important encounters to ensure that he isn't wasting resources on damage when I need to be healed. Happy questing! I'm going to put this in spoilers, because it is dealing with the inquisitor storyline. the mission I'm having trouble with right now. Is the act 2 finale, killing rolan. I've tried every companion, and I still cannot kill him. Largely due to, I think, his force storm. I keep Overload, Low slash, and jolt off cooldown just for that one ability and yet he spams it so often he always casts it. I've tried every companion - Talos is the worst, niky is decent, but not great. Khem is okay and I can almost kill him with him, and ashara is the best but only slightly. It all boils down to not enough DPS other then burst. and thats just lately. I really don't group alot yet so..Yea. Edited January 30, 2012 by acheros Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lgrayman Posted January 30, 2012 Author Share Posted January 30, 2012 (edited) I disagree. This is the first time a melee DPS character has been my main in an MMO and I'm not having any difficulties following my rotation while staying in range and behind the mobs. Yes, being melee I move a lot more than ranged DPS but it IS possible to attack while moving. Especially since none of the abilities in our primary rotation have a cast time. It's not possible to attack whilst moving out constantly due to AoE/knockback, and even when the mob is turning/running it's often not possible to do maul (quick example off the top of my head, Karagga is often moved/turned by the main tank and you have to move to the side constantly, often having to wait due to fire etc, not to mention constantly running out due to the mice and that other ability he does.) Running out to avoid knock-backs and pbAoE's does suck but it's par-for-the-course when playing a melee character. If it bothers you that much, melee is perhaps not the role you should be playing. I really don't understand how people can say this sort of thing with a straight face. Essentially "Yes, melee is worse than ranged, deal with it." I can only imagine that if we lived in a different age you might say "Yes, women can't vote but you should accept that instead of trying to do anything about it." If melee has to have this shortcoming, then there needs to be something to make up for it - superior DPS, superior utility, something. Not only do we not have superior ability in such fields, we have worse. Maybe operatives have it even worse, I don't know, but I never said they were fine; just that assassins, too, need help. However, I'm glad to see you recognise that the assassin does have numerous problems and agree with me on some points such as lacerate and deception needing to be improved. On another note, I recently switched to hybrid madness (0/13/28) and it solves none of the issues I listed in the original post, contrary to what numerous people have stated. I guess you can occasionally use death field when it isn't on cooldown whilst you're running out from AoE/knockback abilities, but other than that, nothing. You still have to be in melee range, you still have awful CC and AoE and bring nothing to the raid/group that others don't do better. Edited January 30, 2012 by Lgrayman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nymaeria Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 I'm going to put this in spoilers, because it is dealing with the inquisitor storyline. the mission I'm having trouble with right now. Is the act 2 finale, killing rolan. I've tried every companion, and I still cannot kill him. Largely due to, I think, his force storm. I keep Overload, Low slash, and jolt off cooldown just for that one ability and yet he spams it so often he always casts it. I've tried every companion - Talos is the worst, niky is decent, but not great. Khem is okay and I can almost kill him with him, and ashara is the best but only slightly. It all boils down to not enough DPS other then burst. and thats just lately. I really don't group alot yet so..Yea. I remember having trouble with him too. I started it with Khem (even though I despised him, I hadn't figured out that Talos was leet yet), and we wiped twice. Even toggling his passive command he would spend too long in the AE and die. At a friends suggestion, I switched to Talos and we wiped once because he wasn't geared (I was notorious for neglecting my pets in this game). I left, bought him some gear and one shot Rolan when we got back. Some tips that helped me: - Make sure Talos' DPS abilities are off and his medic stance is on. - Make sure you have Dark Charge on. - Interrupt however you can (electrocute, low slash, jolt, overload) - Move if you can't interrupt - Move pets via the passive command if they're in it (a little sluggish but minimizing damage even a little is good). If you've already done all of this and are still having troubles, I'm sorry. >.< When all else fails, ask for help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nymaeria Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 It's not possible to attack whilst moving out constantly due to AoE/knockback, Forgive me, but I think that is a little bit obvious. I was saying that while bosses (like Karagga) are being turned and repositioned it is possible to DPS them while moving with them. What you can do while you're out of range is throw out ranged abilities (electrocute, force lightning, crushing darkness) to supplement your damage loss, especially if you're going to be out of melee range for a bit. and even when the mob is turning/running it's often not possible to do maul (quick example off the top of my head, Karagga is often moved/turned by the main tank and you have to move to the side constantly, often having to wait due to fire etc, not to mention constantly running out due to the mice and that other ability he does.) I just did Karagga last night and didn't have any trouble getting my rotation off. Staying at the side the whole time means you never have to move to avoid his butt flames or cluster rockets (or w/e that frontal cone is called). You don't always have to move for the mice if you're paying attention - especially since most raid groups favor ranged (I'm the only melee in mine). I really don't understand how people can say this sort of thing with a straight face. Essentially "Yes, melee is worse than ranged, deal with it." I can only imagine that if we lived in a different age you might say "Yes, women can't vote but you should accept that instead of trying to do anything about it." lol, gotta love people and their hyperboles. There's quite a large difference between a game's mechanics and civil rights. Even ranged people have to move occasionally. The big difference that you aren't accounting for is that interrupting a caster's rotation (we can agree that most ranged classes are casters, yes?) usually has far more detrimental repercussions than interrupting a melee's. Also, if nobody moved ever, fights would be incredibly boring. If melee has to have this shortcoming, then there needs to be something to make up for it - superior DPS, superior utility, something. Not only do we not have superior ability in such fields, we have worse. Maybe operatives have it even worse, I don't know, but I never said they were fine; just that assassins, too, need help. This makes me wonder if you read my entire post. I agreed with this almost completely. The only point I might disagree on is your claim that we are terrible damage. As BioWare decided not to include a combat log (stupid stupid stupid), I cannot tell you for sure. All I have to go by is what I've seen/experienced. In single target encounters I HAVE to be guarded or I will pull aggro (even later into the fight). Also, in watching friends play, they do not see as many large numbers as I do (maul, discharge and shock are all usually right around 4k while voltaic slash adds up to almost 3k). On another note, I recently switched to hybrid madness (0/13/28) and it solves none of the issues I listed in the original post, contrary to what numerous people have stated. I guess you can occasionally use death field when it isn't on cooldown whilst you're running out from AoE/knockback abilities, but other than that, nothing. You still have to be in melee range, you still have awful CC and AoE and bring nothing to the raid/group that others don't do better. I'm sorry to hear that. I'm pretty happy with Deception and have no desire to try any other DPS tree (though I am contemplating trying to roll a sorc so I can heal [my mains are usually healers]). The style of play just works for me. Hopefully they'll get around to fixing up the trees some time soon. And if their goal really is to have all DPS classes put out the same numbers, I hope they revise that and quick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astarica Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Anythign with 27 or more in Darkness can pretty much attack at 10m, which lets you avoid most deadly melee range attacks (those usually have exactly a 10m range). I don't know if it's a good idea to require HD to not get mauled by some of the anti-melee ability in this game, but it's workable with HD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tXHereticXt Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 (edited) ...objectively worse than sorcerers (and other ranged DPS)... So Force Lightning being their only superior range ability ( under the condition that you activate your CD ) wasn't a clear indicator? Stop treating it like it's a ranger. Edited January 30, 2012 by tXHereticXt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lgrayman Posted February 1, 2012 Author Share Posted February 1, 2012 (edited) I just did Karagga last night and didn't have any trouble getting my rotation off. Staying at the side the whole time means you never have to move to avoid his butt flames or cluster rockets (or w/e that frontal cone is called). You don't always have to move for the mice if you're paying attention - especially since most raid groups favor ranged (I'm the only melee in mine). You may well have got off your rotation more or less but there would certainly be more delay in using abilities like maul due to the turning, which is not something that range has to deal with. As for the mice etc, my raid has more melee than yours so I don't know if that's why, also there's that other ability he does that sucks you in - I run away, then I need to run all the way back. Ranged? They just start pew pewing again whilst I'm still running back. What difficulty were you doing Karagga on? Almost every boss seems to be designed in an annoying way for melee. Soa you need to run out from the balls that often go through the middle where the boss is and wait to return, you need to run to mind traps, all of which isn't much of a problem for ranged. Gharj, his stomps, etc etc. I just think if we're to put up with this discrepancy, Bioware should aim to give us superior DPS to ranged, or something else to make up for it and make raids take us and not have situations like the one you're in where you're the only melee - give us better CC, good AoE, great buffs unique to melee specs, whatever. I think it'd be bad enough if we were equal in these terms, but we're not - we're worse. lol, gotta love people and their hyperboles. There's quite a large difference between a game's mechanics and civil rights. Even ranged people have to move occasionally. The big difference that you aren't accounting for is that interrupting a caster's rotation (we can agree that most ranged classes are casters, yes?) usually has far more detrimental repercussions than interrupting a melee's. Also, if nobody moved ever, fights would be incredibly boring. This makes me wonder if you read my entire post. I agreed with this almost completely. The only point I might disagree on is your claim that we are terrible damage. As BioWare decided not to include a combat log (stupid stupid stupid), I cannot tell you for sure. All I have to go by is what I've seen/experienced. In single target encounters I HAVE to be guarded or I will pull aggro (even later into the fight). Also, in watching friends play, they do not see as many large numbers as I do (maul, discharge and shock are all usually right around 4k while voltaic slash adds up to almost 3k). I'm sorry to hear that. I'm pretty happy with Deception and have no desire to try any other DPS tree (though I am contemplating trying to roll a sorc so I can heal [my mains are usually healers]). The style of play just works for me. Hopefully they'll get around to fixing up the trees some time soon. And if their goal really is to have all DPS classes put out the same numbers, I hope they revise that and quick. I did read your post but I'm used to being on the defensive here as everyone is saying "LOL NOOB STOP CRYING!" sorry about that. I don't think we do terrible DPS, just less than ranged. I think deception does good burst damage but not as good sustained. However, even if I'm wrong, there's one very important thing to note: Bioware aims to have all classes have equal DPS, which I believe is a flawed philosophy and will end up resulting in melee being short changed. If everyone does 1000 DPS, but one of them isn't DPSing for a lot longer than the other due to running in and out constantly, having to move around the boss to maul him when you often get stupid "The ability's condition is not being met!" and other nonsense, and the boss often moves or turns to other targets etc (other off-tanks, or if one tank dies, or if someone pulls aggro, or if the mechanics have an aggro wipe, and so on), then inevitably, the one at the back not dealing with this will end up with more DPS than melee. At best, it'll be equal, which isn't fair either because one class is still doing more work and has less utility. It would be boring if everyone stayed still, I just think it's unfair that melee in general has a lot more work to do, and less utility etc than ranged. I think people have gotten used to this status quo and think "well yes, melee do have to put up with these issues. That's just how it is. Re-roll if you don't like it." But I don't think things need to stay that way, I think they can progress. One statement in this post of yours really does say it all for me, though. "Most raid groups favor ranged." Indeed. It isn't very hard to see why, unfortunately. Edited February 1, 2012 by Lgrayman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mausty Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 The reason Assassins are left out of groups is that every other character is one and that 75% of them don't have a clue what they are doing. common, what are you 12? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nazaraxx Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 (edited) To much QQ about Maul really, and too many try to use it like WoW backstab. Your bound to loose out if you spend most of your fighting dancing with the target. Maul isn't a bad opener, but it's very expensive, and really shouldn't be your main thought for attack. I think for the most part, it's far more efficient to use Shocks and slashes. I have had no real problems taking down Zash, Thanaton etc. Granted the sin needs to be played differently. You cant just use a fixed rotation as you can with other classes, or in other MMO sins but that's part of the fun I believe. What other class gets a reset button mid fight for solo PVE? Cloak and blackout are immense skills that others don't get. Personally I love my Dec sin. I get bored quick playing my sorc, and my merc is little challenge and tends to stay in its box. As a note on raids, if a group doesn't see your potential as an interrupt specialist and a player that can instantly vanish if a wipes coming, to get the ressing started, then they are the ones missing the point. I personally have never had that problem, as my guild uses all classes to their fullest potential. If your having issues roll another toon, and come back when everything is nerfed to hell and Pandas are taking over, oh sorry that's WoW, and this isn't so stop playing it as if it is! Edited February 1, 2012 by Nazaraxx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zilod Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 (edited) kragga is quite a melee friendly boss... soa will be a better example of a melee unfriendly boss as dpsers have to switch between boss and traps and yep i agree that dps sins are quite suboptimal in raid as mercs and sorcs provide better and more stable dps with more utility... operatives at least get a big burst that is handly for some fights but sin doesnt bring much to the raid Edited February 1, 2012 by Zilod Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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