Assassins are objectively worse than sorcerers (and other ranged DPS) in PVE

[Lgrayman]

The other thread "assassins suck" is focused on PVP which I have no care for, and is a bit hyperbolic. This thread is mainly about how assassins are worse in regards to PVE.

 

Let's assume for a moment that assassins have equal DPS with sorcerers - Bioware has stated they want everyone to have equal DPS. Okay, so a boss fight begins, and a sorcerer starts attacking the boss. The assassin? He stealths, he takes time to get into range, he has to get behind the boss which often means moving around because it will shift targets from tank to off-tank, etc or just move around as part of the fight's mechanics. All the while, sorcerers and other ranged DPS are casually continuing their rotation, never even having to move out when the boss does AoE, knockbacks, and so on. As a result, assassins will naturally do significantly less DPS than them.

 

On the utility front, it's even worse. Sorcerers get a much better crowd control ability that can be used at range on anything, even whilst in combat. Assassins meanwhile, get an ability that can only be used out of combat and cannot be used on droids. This is especially noticeable in the latest flashpoint Kaon Under Siege which requires 2 crowd control abilities on droids to effectively defeat one of the major fights; it's as if Bioware is mocking assassins and trying to get them left out of groups, which is indeed happening.

 

Area of effect damage spells... do I even need to say this? The sorcerer has far, far better AoE abilities.

 

Overall the assassin needs some tweaks to make it competitive in PVE. Here are a few potential suggestions:

 

• A shadowstep-esque ability that from as far away as 30 metres could instantly teleport the assassin, even whilst stealthed, behind his target would help a lot (may be overpowered in PVP, just disable it for PVP like the tumble ability, if necessary (though it may help to alleviate the assassin's problems in PVP as well)).
  
• Allow the assassin to use whirlwind exactly as the sorcerer does or buff mind trap accordingly in such a way that it becomes desirable for groups - perhaps it could have a significantly shorter duration, but not be breakable by damage?
  
• Flat out increase the assassin's DPS to make up for his other shortcomings in comparison to all ranged DPS, in particular his Sith Inquisitor sister class. I realise Bioware doesn't really want to do this though.
  
• Make a (talented) lacerate do as much damage and cover as large an area as force storm, or give the assassin a new AoE ability that can compare to force storm.
  
• Another thing that could help is removing the requirement to be behind a target when using Maul. I mean why is this there, really? It serves no real purpose to force players to be behind the target and can be a major inconvenience to assassins as they have to move around constantly, during which they are not doing DPS. It's not as though it's called 'Backstab' like the ability in WoW, so it wouldn't be silly to remove such a requirement in this case.
  
• Maybe none of these, but it is clear that something needs to be done.
  

 

Thank you.

 

edit: I should mention I'm talking about this from the point of view of a deception specialised assassin. However, all the points remain for madness assassins, just not quite as bad - from what I understand, madness assassins still make extensive use of melee and still need to get behind their targets. They'll also of course suffer from the other things like lack of a good CC ability. Overall, I imagine the problem is only very slightly alleviated by specialising in madness.

 

Update: I have since switched to madness and none of the issues are resolved even slightly. Still a lack of a good CC, still a lack of a good AoE (death field has a long cooldown and only works on 3 targets), still a lack of utility in general and has to be behind target and move way more than ranged.

Edited February 7, 2012 by Lgrayman

[carliiiiito]

 

 

...

; it's as if Bioware is mocking assassins and trying to get them left out of groups, which is indeed happening.

.

 

so you think devs spend hundreds of hours creating a game and then decided,lets make assassins not wanted.yeah good plan.

And now they sit in their offices laughing at all those who picked assassin?

i stoped takin you seriously after that line.

[Pricia]

Eh he has a point...

[Kirkaz]

I'm assuming you are talking about the Deception tree. This is really where Dual spec would be nice as I myself have switched from Deception to Madness for raiding just for the fact that I have more DPS time on the boss while moving. Seeing how Madness is half way viable as a range/melee hybrid, I doubt you will see anything added to deception for any kind of range allowances being that we have the ability to do range just in another tree.

 

I agree our CC is bogus and I really only use it when I'm tanking since I'm already next to the mobs.

 

Shadow Step would really make this class more enticing to play and I would never have a complaint if I had just that ability added because of the sheer utility of it.

[Vesperr]

The very least BW could do is to make whirlwind immune to pushback as its almost useless and not worth the hassle out of madness builds.

 

 

p.s. It would also be nice if other skills could be useful in all 3 specs (like force lightning in non darkness or crushing darkness in non madness spec).

Edited January 20, 2012 by Vesperr

[Lgrayman]

so you think devs spend hundreds of hours creating a game and then decided,lets make assassins not wanted.yeah good plan.

And now they sit in their offices laughing at all those who picked assassin?

i stoped takin you seriously after that line.

 

Come on, it's not that hard to understand. I'll modify the sentence to make it easier to understand for people who are having trouble keeping up.

 

"It's as if Bioware is mocking assassins and trying to get them left out of groups, and that thing I mentioned just before this part of the sentence, about assassins potentially being left out of groups? That is happening."

 

 

I'm assuming you are talking about the Deception tree. This is really where Dual spec would be nice as I myself have switched from Deception to Madness for raiding just for the fact that I have more DPS time on the boss while moving. Seeing how Madness is half way viable as a range/melee hybrid, I doubt you will see anything added to deception for any kind of range allowances being that we have the ability to do range just in another tree.

 

I agree our CC is bogus and I really only use it when I'm tanking since I'm already next to the mobs.

 

Shadow Step would really make this class more enticing to play and I would never have a complaint if I had just that ability added because of the sheer utility of it.

 

 

Yeah, I'm talking about deception. I'll have to give madness a go at some stage but I really hope they can make deception assassins more competitive at some stage.

[Astarica]

I'm not sure how anybody can make any judgment on PvE in the absence of combat logs. As far as I know, I could be doing twice the DPS compared to range DPS, or the other way around. I simply have no way to verify it. Sure ranged DPS appears to have more utilty, but without knowing how much DPS you actually do, it's pointless to compare utilty since in the end, as a DPS, it is still the DPS you do that is the #1 concern.

[Votum]

...congratulations! You've won! This is the one millionth thread in a class forum complaining about said class sucking.

 

Stuff is imbalanced right now. Live with it, wait for fixes or don't resub.

[Muckbeast]

Really good points.

 

Melee is at a huge disadvantage to ranged in general, and it is even worse for assassins.

[Atrox]

Yeah, melee in general was clearly not considered when designing PvE content from what I've seen thus far.

[Djena]

The reason Assassins are left out of groups is that every other character is one and that 75% of them don't have a clue what they are doing.

[Zanky]

I agree with you OP, we could def use a good CC however I'm fine with keeping Mind Trap but let it perhaps work in combat so we can use Vanish to get it off? Don't think that would make it OP at all while still giving us some utility. And remove the part where it cannot be used on droids as too many mobs in high end FP's are droids(and face it that is the only place where you need your CC)

[LekKharr]

It's a bit weird to see all these posts complaining how a class do more or less dps than another while we have absolutely no tool to estimate dps until combat logs are available.

Assassin looks fine to me though, I kill my quest mobs fast enough, i kill adds in flashpoints fast enough (at least as fast as the sith warrior or the mercenary i am running instances with) and i usually do not have problem killing a boss before it enrages.

[Hylfnur]

As I mentioned in other threads.

 

There is no risk reward system for melee classes in this game.

Assassin is hard to master and besides that this class needs tweaks.

They should rework force lightning for assassins to save class mechanic a bit.

[Zanky]

It's a bit weird to see all these posts complaining how a class do more or less dps than another while we have absolutely no tool to estimate dps until combat logs are available.

Assassin looks fine to me though, I kill my quest mobs fast enough, i kill adds in flashpoints fast enough (at least as fast as the sith warrior or the mercenary i am running instances with) and i usually do not have problem killing a boss before it enrages.

 

We cannot know 100% accurate whether class A is doing more dps than class B but that does not mean we cannot have an idea at all. For instance I spent a big part of my leveling experience with my brother who is a powertech tank, we came to the conclusion that his damage was single target not far behind mine and his AOE was a lot better than mine (as deception), you can see that very easy in how fast the mobs die etc. or how fast I can kill a 60k health mob and how fast he can do it. (we both went with a healer pet and turned their main damage attacks off so it was only their autoattack).

 

Another example is the 4th boss in EV as everyone has their own boss to kill.

 

You even compared yourself to the merc and the sith warrior with who you are running flashpoints, that's (however very limited) still a tool to estimate dps.

 

All those things can give you a rough idea of how your class is, and while you experienced you were at least on par with your friends, others came to a different conclusion.

 

But don't get me wrong, I don't think we are that far behind other melee classes (if at all) but I would just like to get an in combat CC so we got our place in the 4 man (hardmode) flashpoints.

[theonepanda]

Madness assassins tend to fare better on boss fights.

 

Though you still cannot stick to a boss during certain mechanics, for the pull you can open with death field -> creeping terror and by the time those are done you will be in <10 yards of the boss to discharge and shock, and begin your melee rotation.

 

All melee are a bit incovenienced, i would say assassins are actually the least disadvantaged melee, aside from maybe operatives who can cover + snipe or at least grenade when at range.

[Dhariq]

This is as I see it not an assassin issue but an mdps issue. Many games has it as they seem to balance dps around standing still, in position, and pressing go! If the number come out the same the balance is done. Unfortunatly they do not seem to realize the positioning, their own aggro system which gives ranged a break, their own pve mechanics making the mdps having to run away and so on.

I do not play dps at all but anyhow; right now there is no reason to bring a mdps over a rdps if you have a choice in the matter. Well apart from the fact that a guy/gal with a double bladed lightsaber looks so cool.

Edited January 20, 2012 by Dhariq

[Lgrayman]

People saying "You can't know what the DPS is" are missing the point. Bioware have officially stated that they want everyone's DPS to be the same. However, that cannot be the case until they fix the issues the assassin faces unless they deliberately give the class more DPS to counter-balance having to move around, run out of AoE/knockbacks, etc. Plus, as has been stated, you can get a rough idea of the damage being done after having grouped with many ranged DPS.

 

Not to mention the other issues presented such as the lack of a good CC ability, not as good AoE, and so on. Assassins need to have some sort of advantage instead of being worse at everything.

 

 

The reason Assassins are left out of groups is that every other character is one and that 75% of them don't have a clue what they are doing.

 

Does it feel good to pull random percentages out of nowhere? I see just as many sorcerers as assassins - in fact, most assassins I see are tanks. They are left out of groups because they are not as useful. They don't have a nice utility shield like the sniper that reduces all damage done for 15 seconds, they don't have great AoE and CC like the sorcerer, and so on. In addition, they are a liability and will die more often because they are far more vulnerable to AoE, knockbacks, and so on. All problems that need to be fixed.

Edited January 20, 2012 by Lgrayman

[Astarica]

So although people think Bioware can't balance classes you magically trust the fact that they're completely correct in saying all DPS do the same DPS without ever being able to verify it?

 

If melee DPS does say 20% more damage than ranged DPS, that could mean you still do more DPS even on fights with a lot of movement. Again, without a log you cannot possibly know this. On the Infernal Council I was tanking the 70K one and got him to 20K in the time it took another DPS to drop the 40K ones. Of course I have better gear too, but I didn't even use any cooldowns on that guy since I never dropped below 80%. I think I even swapped to my tank set because I thought it was going to be hard, when I could easily have done that guy in DPS gear.

 

While ease of mobility is always a big issue, ultimately no matter how annoying it is to move around constantly, if you still end up doing more DPS even after all the annoyance, you're in a better place than the competing DPS. Now it can easily be the case this isn't true. We just have no way of knowing which is the case.

Edited January 20, 2012 by Astarica

[Exulion]

I think here the problem lies is that most content HEAVILY favors ranged dps, and some fights are near impossible without it. We roll with a mele heavy group,

Assassin tank

Assassin DPS

Marauder DPS

Sorcerer Healer,

for the most part we plow through most content we have come across. Most new bosses we haven't seen before within 2-3 attempts, some fights we shouldn't have problems with we do just because they don't seem to be tuned to allow a pure mele group (geared for that content) to put out enough dps while dealing with the other mechanics.

 

Assassins also lack utility, hell even our marauder can CC a droid for 1 minute with no CD in combat, but our only useful CC is only usable out of combat and on organics?

What about that sorcerer speced into DPS that can still sit there and throw out shields and minor heals? Have you ever had an assassin sit there while you were in a bind and say hey I'll just shield you and you should be ok?

Hey We have waves of normal mobs I will chain out ae stun normal dps spell... wait I don't have that.

 

So... pretty much my only job is to kill ****... and Sorcerers do that just as well as me?

Edited January 20, 2012 by Exulion

[Astarica]

I think here the problem lies is that most content HEAVILY favors ranged dps, and some fights are near impossible without it. We roll with a mele heavy group,

Assassin tank

Assassin DPS

Marauder DPS

Sorcerer Healer,

for the most part we plow through most content we have come across. Most new bosses we haven't seen before within 2-3 attempts, some fights we shouldn't have problems with we do just because they don't seem to be tuned to allow a pure mele group (geared for that content) to put out enough dps while dealing with the other mechanics.

 

The game obviously suffers from the WoW syndrone of giving every other boss some kind of anti-melee ability. However, without actual parses, you still can't tell that just because an enemy has an anti-melee ability, are you really doing less damage than a ranged DPS? Sure it is frustrating when the boss cleaves you for 10K, but if you still end up doing more damage than a ranged DPS, then I'd argue you're still a more useful member assuming this doesn't create undue burden on the healers.

[Exulion]

The game obviously suffers from the WoW syndrone of giving every other boss some kind of anti-melee ability. However, without actual parses, you still can't tell that just because an enemy has an anti-melee ability, are you really doing less damage than a ranged DPS? Sure it is frustrating when the boss cleaves you for 10K, but if you still end up doing more damage than a ranged DPS, then I'd argue you're still a more useful member assuming this doesn't create undue burden on the healers.

 

I can't tell you for sure if I do less damage or not... but I can say If my sorc friend and I went out to kill mobs and he speced dps we would be killing mobs at least as fast as each other(he would probably pull way ahead if he started AEing as well). While he would have all the added utility and ability to not have to run out of Mele effects on bosses etc.

Edited January 20, 2012 by Exulion

[jkcheng]

I don't think Operatives and Marauders are free of the same concerns other than they do have a CC for droids that can be used in combat. While the game did just come out and balancing is far from being complete, what has me a bit concerned is the currently the goal is to have all the dps classes do the same damage. Does this mean all dps classes, ranged or melee, should do the same dps in ideal situations?

 

WoW stated clearly melees (Rogues) are able to outdps other classes given ideal situation as a way to make them more viable in gimmicky boss fights and lack of any other utility provided to the raid (no heals, no tanking, no debuff removal, not even an aura type thing that buffs the raid). The same theories needs to apply to SWTOR, there needs to be incentives, not necessarily higher dps, that keeps melee dps classes in Operations.

 

Besides higher dps, Rogues were also given some utilities that help them sustain long dps-check fights better than other classes that has Mages and other ranged classes run out of mana before the fight ends. With how energy worked for Rogues they could sustain constant dps over long fights as well as ways to wipe/lower aggro.

 

Back in beta Assassins had an ability called Mind Soothe that lowered aggro, I don't know why that was removed as now we only have Force Cloak to wipe aggro and the cooldown on that is pretty long.

 

While I understand the game is new and balancing is a never-going-to-be-perfect issue, I wonder what the devs goal is as far as balancing PvE viability. Whether they reach that goal is another issue, but I like to know what the goal is.

[Weioo]

Eh he has a point...

 

This ^

[Gryn]

The assassins need some serious attention.