Skuishe Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 you're forgetting about the Circle of gear progression formula though, Especially in WoW it MEANT whoever got their first ALREADY had an advantage thus expanding the gap even further. 2-3 Seasons in, a PvPer who JUST joined the game could very well be the best player in the world.. would still have to go up against people with gear. You can't tell me that's a system that's fair and Skill based. Yes they had a numbers advantage, but the best PvPer in the world would still make it up there. The way you're telling it the top tier Glads every season would be the same and that's absolutely not true. Any way you're looking at it, 10-49 is now much more fun, yes, but the level of play in them has also gone way down. If it is more to your level of play, then that's great. Everyone has more fun. But that doesn't mean all the best pvpers in the world are suddnely in this bracket with no gear to differentiate them. I'm a competent pvper, but hardly near the top, but playing on my 26 alt is a faceroll 90% of the time now. There's nothing wrong with more casual players levelling slower than the ones with more time, but trying to pretend that most of the best pvpers aren't already 50 and competing hard in the 50s bracket is the real denial here. Again, the "logic" that you are so fond of dictates that with most of the 50s/good players gone, the lower level players are now more likely to be matched up against fellow casual players of their own level, and not having to deal with gear imbalance. This does not mean you're better players than the 50s with gear, it just means everyone is now having more fun because they're playing against competition at their own level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nvmvoidrays Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Umm... were you even around in the gaming industry then? most people didn't even KNOW what an MMO was.. If UO released right now as a FRESH game in this current time period i promise you it would have MAD subs. i wish this was true, but no. it'd have nearly no subs. (talking about pre-AoS UO. Renaissance/T2A era) it'd need a massive interface overhaul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iphonemilk Posted January 19, 2012 Author Share Posted January 19, 2012 That is possible, as memory can sometimes embellish things, it can also make them seem more negative than they were. And btw... the Red Vs Blue wars was probably some of the most fun i've ever had in gaming.. such a blast. Get home from School.. Log on.. go to bucs den.. literally 50+ Blues fighting 50+ reds all day long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iphonemilk Posted January 19, 2012 Author Share Posted January 19, 2012 Yes they had a numbers advantage, but the best PvPer in the world would still make it up there. The way you're telling it the top tier Glads every season would be the same and that's absolutely not true. Any way you're looking at it, 10-49 is now much more fun, yes, but the level of play in them has also gone way down. If it is more to your level of play, then that's great. Everyone has more fun. But that doesn't mean all the best pvpers in the world are suddnely in this bracket with no gear to differentiate them. I'm a competent pvper, but hardly near the top, but playing on my 26 alt is a faceroll 90% of the time now. There's nothing wrong with more casual players levelling slower than the ones with more time, but trying to pretend that most of the best pvpers aren't already 50 and competing hard in the 50s bracket is the real denial here. Again, the "logic" that you are so fond of dictates that with most of the 50s/good players gone, the lower level players are now more likely to be matched up against fellow casual players of their own level, and not having to deal with gear imbalance. This does not mean you're better players than the 50s with gear, it just means everyone is now having more fun because they're playing against competition at their own level. The people who even THOUGHT about giving it a go to be at the top STARTED EVERY first week. Don't even tell me they waited a few weeks and then began that next season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iphonemilk Posted January 19, 2012 Author Share Posted January 19, 2012 i wish this was true, but no. it'd have nearly no subs. (talking about pre-AoS UO. Renaissance/T2A era) it'd need a massive interface overhaul. Well of course... Graphically speaking.. but that that same TEMPLATE of game design.. is what I meant... and yes.. T2a is pretty much the HIGHEST rule set that I am speaking of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veala Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 The same gear is obtainable to everyone, what's your point? A skilled pvp er will get the same gear as every other pvper has. Not sure you understand how it works. Yeah if you start late you have a disadvantage but doesn't mean your non competitive and doesn't mean you can't get the gear too... That is kind of his point. Let's put it this way. At the top levels of pvp tournaments in WoW, is there anyone who isn't wearing the maximum resilience available in game? The answer is obviously no, which begs the question of what is the purpose of the gear grind at all? Yes, a new player can get the same gear as someone who started earlier, with time, but if the end result is that both players are effectively playing with 0 expertise since they cancel each other out, what's the point? Why not just put everyone on a level playing field and make pvp about status symbols like mounts, titles, and appearance gear (Since stats would no longer matter) instead? As far as I'm concerned the most satisfying thing a pvp-er can achieve is such name notoriety that the other faction dreads seeing you on the opposing team. Making pvp about status symbols instead of stats would play right into that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EscVelocity Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 What bothers me about PvP though is that you'd think in most games where you've leveled and put in more work into talents and leveling that you should be able to take down more easily (if not steamroll) people who just leveled to 10 in a starting zone. Something's not right about having to struggle a bit to take down two level 10's when you're above lvl 30. In WSG for WoW even newbs going up against twinks could avoid getting pwned by simply bypassing and helping CC or Heal. But in PvP for this game you're level 10 in PvP well you can just logon and stand there not doing anything and still take 30 seconds - 1 minute to be killed by someone 20 - 30 levels higher than you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iphonemilk Posted January 19, 2012 Author Share Posted January 19, 2012 That is kind of his point. Let's put it this way. At the top levels of pvp tournaments in WoW, is there anyone who isn't wearing the maximum resilience available in game? The answer is obviously no, which begs the question of what is the purpose of the gear grind at all? Yes, a new player can get the same gear as someone who started earlier, with time, but if the end result is that both players are effectively playing with 0 expertise since they cancel each other out, what's the point? Why not just put everyone on a level playing field and make pvp about status symbols like mounts, titles, and appearance gear (Since stats would no longer matter) instead? As far as I'm concerned the most satisfying thing a pvp-er can achieve is such name notoriety that the other faction dreads seeing you on the opposing team. Making pvp about status symbols instead of stats would play right into that. 100% agree ^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crujido Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 That is kind of his point. Let's put it this way. At the top levels of pvp tournaments in WoW, is there anyone who isn't wearing the maximum resilience available in game? The answer is obviously no, which begs the question of what is the purpose of the gear grind at all? Yes, a new player can get the same gear as someone who started earlier, with time, but if the end result is that both players are effectively playing with 0 expertise since they cancel each other out, what's the point? Why not just put everyone on a level playing field and make pvp about status symbols like mounts, titles, and appearance gear (Since stats would no longer matter) instead? As far as I'm concerned the most satisfying thing a pvp-er can achieve is such name notoriety that the other faction dreads seeing you on the opposing team. Making pvp about status symbols instead of stats would play right into that. Because its an MMO and there needs to be an incentive to PvP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxdragonragexx Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 People thinking that taking expertise out will take away pvp gear progression at level 50 are idiots. There will always be pvp gear progression. Doesn't matter whether expertise is there or not. This is where SWTOR is heading. It is going with WOW type of gear progression. Expertise is there to keep the raiders from owning pvpers. Simple as that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sumwun Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 You're right, 1-49 is skill based. its "who has more points in their skill tree?" or "who has more skills trained" based. This joke was too long for the low levels of humor it provided. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iphonemilk Posted January 19, 2012 Author Share Posted January 19, 2012 Because its an MMO and there needs to be an incentive to PvP. There's plenty of ways to put Incentives out there. what you DON'T WANT TO ADMIT TOO however.. is that the incentives that YOU want? are to get a Weapon that allows you to WIN EASIER - keywords here" WIN EASIER" that's YOUR idea of an Incentive.. not MY idea. My idea would be many other things... Titles.. priest age.. COOL LOOKING gear.. HELL a new Space ship? How about a Rare new Companion? etc etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxdragonragexx Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 That is kind of his point. Let's put it this way. At the top levels of pvp tournaments in WoW, is there anyone who isn't wearing the maximum resilience available in game? The answer is obviously no, which begs the question of what is the purpose of the gear grind at all? Yes, a new player can get the same gear as someone who started earlier, with time, but if the end result is that both players are effectively playing with 0 expertise since they cancel each other out, what's the point? Why not just put everyone on a level playing field and make pvp about status symbols like mounts, titles, and appearance gear (Since stats would no longer matter) instead? As far as I'm concerned the most satisfying thing a pvp-er can achieve is such name notoriety that the other faction dreads seeing you on the opposing team. Making pvp about status symbols instead of stats would play right into that. Your problem is the gear grind which is something that this game has and will always have. Expertise or resilience has nothing to do with it. MMO games like this will always have gear progression. You may be playing the wrong game if you don't like the carrot on a stick MMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bnzbacca Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 i wish this was true, but no. it'd have nearly no subs. (talking about pre-AoS UO. Renaissance/T2A era) it'd need a massive interface overhaul. Agree, with the flashy graphics of today... UO would not have any people playing it... and with the carebear nature of MMOs that this generation is used to... the rampant PKing of UO would prevent subs also... (UO made trammel because of all these crybabies). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YanksfanJP Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 As well could non 50s please stop saying 50s are elitist because we hate playing with non 50s and love owning non lvl 50s. As with anyone we just want a fair chance to win. That's only half right. 50's hate playing with non-50's. They love playing against non-50s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iphonemilk Posted January 19, 2012 Author Share Posted January 19, 2012 People thinking that taking expertise out will take away pvp gear progression at level 50 are idiots. There will always be pvp gear progression. Doesn't matter whether expertise is there or not. This is where SWTOR is heading. It is going with WOW type of gear progression. Expertise is there to keep the raiders from owning pvpers. Simple as that. You COULD do what I said in a post a long time ago... Come out with a Template system.. Where you create a "PvP template" of gear that you wear.. whenever you zone into PvP you have this gear on. Any PVE gear you have on doesn't get pulled into PvP. This keeps the 2 systems separate... it's win win for everyone and the Devs can also BALANCE CLASSES better as well.. because they won't have all these hidden variables of gear stats effecting the numbers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youwillburn Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Didnt the price of gear also double with this patch? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skuishe Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 The people who even THOUGHT about giving it a go to be at the top STARTED EVERY first week. Don't even tell me they waited a few weeks and then began that next season. If you think that having 4-5 pieces of higher level glad gear than your opponents in WoW that you could get with a month or two ahead gives you an unassailable advantage, or even any kind of significant advantage, then your problem isn't that gear =/= skill, it's that you're personally too afraid of facing someone with any kind of advantage. Look I have no idea who you are and how good you are, for all I know you could be one of the best pvpers in the world, which i doubt because people with those kind of drive typically want to be the best, and sub 50s is about as far away from the top competition level as high school basketball is to the nba, but all I'm arguing here is that the most competitive, most skill based pvp still happens at the very top, meaning 50s. 10-49 is actually massively more unbalanced than just 50 is, obviously less so than 10-50, but gear and skill points and skills makes a gigantic difference. A scoundrel doubles in strength in the late 30s and quadruples upon hitting 40. If you're having a great time down there because you're suddenly at home with the far less competitive play that's really fine. But stop trashing the accomplishments of anyone who's put in the time to obtain the higher level gear. Obviously not everyone who's a battlemaster is a great player. But I would bet that a large majority of the best players are already battlemaster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrothead Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Then why is it so hard for the majority of any game to get gear/pull good stats in BF's/WZ's? First, reread what I said. Secondly, once the basement dwelling neckbeards get their gear before normal players, it creates a snowball effect that shuts out everyone who didn't whore the game as much as possible. This is compounded by stat bloat that turns even the most limp player into a hard target that can put out/take far more damage than his "lessers". Thus giving the illusion of skill. By the way, basementing a game for weeks to get your resilience gear that turns you into a juggernaut (and is also granted by RNG in this game) is not skill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxdragonragexx Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 (edited) You COULD do what I said in a post a long time ago... Come out with a Template system.. Where you create a "PvP template" of gear that you wear.. whenever you zone into PvP you have this gear on. Any PVE gear you have on doesn't get pulled into PvP. This keeps the 2 systems separate... it's win win for everyone and the Devs can also BALANCE CLASSES better as well.. because they won't have all these hidden variables of gear stats effecting the numbers. I don't really understand how you are thinking. I mean, you can't really take away gear progression in this game. It is how this game is. It is the way to cater to the masses. If it caters to a minority then swtor will be the best game for that minority but it will not have a lot of subs. Gear progression will always be here. I don't like it but at the same time, I don't mind at all. SWTOR will always have gear progression. It is the best way to make a lot of money. We can all play rpg games, dota, league of legends, fps games where there are no gear progression. They are a lot of fun. But this game will always have gear progression. Nothing we can do about it. It has been proven that gear progression = more money. Edited January 19, 2012 by xxdragonragexx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veala Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Because its an MMO and there needs to be an incentive to PvP. The rather overwhelming positive response that the 10-49 bracket has received debunks this a bit. There's no incentive whatsoever to pvp before 50 except experience and badges, both of which aren't as good as questing and instancing if your only goal is to level and get gear. People are doing it because it's fun, no more, no less. But like I said, make the incentive status symbols at max level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tierce Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Bioware wins big on this one. If people just enjoy 1-49 BGs and content, their work is all done. They can just sit back, watch the servers run, and let the subscription money pour in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iphonemilk Posted January 19, 2012 Author Share Posted January 19, 2012 First, reread what I said. Secondly, once the basement dwelling neckbeards get their gear before normal players, it creates a snowball effect that shuts out everyone who didn't whore the game as much as possible. This is compounded by stat bloat that turns even the most limp player into a hard target that can put out/take far more damage than his "lessers". Thus giving the illusion of skill. By the way, basementing a game for weeks to get your resilience gear that turns you into a juggernaut (and is also granted by RNG in this game) is not skill. This ^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sumwun Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Agree, with the flashy graphics of today... UO would not have any people playing it... and with the carebear nature of MMOs that this generation is used to... the rampant PKing of UO would prevent subs also... (UO made trammel because of all these crybabies). True Fact: SWG was placed over the framework that was going to be UO2. This is why when SWG first came out there was corpse running and looting PvP kills. none of which lasted very long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iphonemilk Posted January 19, 2012 Author Share Posted January 19, 2012 I don't really understand how you are thinking. I mean, you can't really take away gear progression in this game. It is how this game is. It is the way to cater to the masses. If it caters to a minority then swtor will be the best game for that minority but it will not have a lot of subs. Gear progression will always be here. I don't like it but at the same time, I don't mind at all. SWTOR will always have gear progression. It is the best way to make a lot of money. We can all play rpg games, dota, league of legends, fps games where there are no gear progression. They are a lot of fun. But this game will always have gear progression. Nothing we can do about it. It has been proven that gear progression = more money. That's just a mentality you've created as a Coincidence to WOW doing well. WoW was a SOLID game.. THAT'S WHY IT DID WELL.. it didn't do so good JUST because it had gear progression. it's not that Black and White. there have been MMO's around that didn't use gear progression systems and were amazing. MMO's weren't exactly that POPULAR back then.. Remember a lot of players who Played WoW? were brought in by friends.. and a LARGE % of them have never even played MMO's before.. So thus the genre has just been growing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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