Archaegeo Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 I have not tested it, but the +6 sec Weaken mind and +2 sec mind crush... Does that stretch out existing damage for more time, or make it tick for same damage longer? The tooltip updates to the longer duration (21 sec for Weaken) so i use the weaken one because its great for cap prevention and of course the accelrated throw spec. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pyradius Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 It will tick for the same damage longer. My tooltip showed an increase in total damage when I specced one point to extend Weaken Mind by 3 seconds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmalygris Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 I didn't consider this skill to be worth the points. I do use it to burn down elites during long fights, but I am not sure if it does as much as qyzen wielding a big old techblade and me healing him. mal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pyradius Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 (edited) I didn't consider this skill to be worth the points. I do use it to burn down elites during long fights, but I am not sure if it does as much as qyzen wielding a big old techblade and me healing him. mal It keeps the same DPS for longer, making it a more efficient use of your force, and freeing you up to do more things. As a Seer specced Sage this 1 point was definitely worth it for me. Because I also have the 20% snare on my Weaken Mind from the Seer tree, it also gives me some decent utility in PvP. Edited January 19, 2012 by pyradius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheandra Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 It keeps the same DPS for longer, making it a more efficient use of your force, and freeing you up to do more things. As a Seer specced Sage this 1 point was definitely worth it for me. Because I also have the 20% snare on my Weaken Mind from the Seer tree, it also gives me some decent utility in PvP. So does it do more damage for a full duration or is it the same over longer time ? By logic is should do more damage or its wasted points but hey... ea has a finger in this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onager Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 It keeps the same DPS for longer, making it a more efficient use of your force, and freeing you up to do more things. As a Seer specced Sage this 1 point was definitely worth it for me. Because I also have the 20% snare on my Weaken Mind from the Seer tree, it also gives me some decent utility in PvP. Additionally, adding one point to the talent that increases Weaken Mind's duration is enough to get it to sync up with Mind Crush's cooldown a little better, you can cast them together and weaken will squeeze that one tick out while you recast Mind Crush with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CedricDur Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 The answers here... A bit on the dumb side of things. And by a bit I do mean a lot. Putting points in the talents will increase the damage. Weaken Mind ticks every three seconds, so with two points it will tick two times more. Mind Crush ticks every seconds, so to two points will make it tick two times more. For the slow of wit that means two extra ticks of damage per cast. Breaking it down further if (random numbers) Mind Crush has five ticks at 100 damage per tick it will do 500 damage, then with two points it will tick seven times and do 700 damage. What you can do is see if there is a point in putting extra points in Weaken Mind or not. Since we use Force In Balance to increase DoT damage we will always cast in on CD, which is 15 seconds. Weaken Mind has a 15 second baseline duration. So when you cast FiB you have a 1.5 second GCD, that's 1.5 seconds where your Weaken Mind is not ticking. So by adding one point in the talent it will still be ticking by the time the GCD of FiB is over. But since it only ticks every 3 seconds it will make no difference damage wise, unless we use the 1.5 seconds left and fit in Mind Crush, which uses another 1.5 GCD. So, Force in Balance = 15 seconds. Weaken Mind with one point = 18 seconds. Mind Crush = 15 seconds Force In Balance = 15 seconds + 1.5 GCD = 16.5 + Mind Crush's 1.5 GCD = 18 seconds. Is there a point in putting a second point there? Sure. Weaken Mind gives us nice things when it crits, so you can DoT multiple target and fish for crits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corran Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 The answers here... A bit on the dumb side of things. And by a bit I do mean a lot. Putting points in the talents will increase the damage. Weaken Mind ticks every three seconds, so with two points it will tick two times more. Mind Crush ticks every seconds, so to two points will make it tick two times more. For the slow of wit that means two extra ticks of damage per cast. Breaking it down further if (random numbers) Mind Crush has five ticks at 100 damage per tick it will do 500 damage, then with two points it will tick seven times and do 700 damage. What you can do is see if there is a point in putting extra points in Weaken Mind or not. Since we use Force In Balance to increase DoT damage we will always cast in on CD, which is 15 seconds. Weaken Mind has a 15 second baseline duration. So when you cast FiB you have a 1.5 second GCD, that's 1.5 seconds where your Weaken Mind is not ticking. So by adding one point in the talent it will still be ticking by the time the GCD of FiB is over. But since it only ticks every 3 seconds it will make no difference damage wise, unless we use the 1.5 seconds left and fit in Mind Crush, which uses another 1.5 GCD. So, Force in Balance = 15 seconds. Weaken Mind with one point = 18 seconds. Mind Crush = 15 seconds Force In Balance = 15 seconds + 1.5 GCD = 16.5 + Mind Crush's 1.5 GCD = 18 seconds. Is there a point in putting a second point there? Sure. Weaken Mind gives us nice things when it crits, so you can DoT multiple target and fish for crits. does not work this way just now - weaken mind 796 dmg over 18 seconds add second point in thalent now says - 796 dmg over 21 seconds the dmg stays the same, lowing the amount per tick but making it last longer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CedricDur Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 /facepalm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranoroth Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 The real test of this is damage per tick. If Weaken Mind works like I think it does (under the hood), it doesn't necessarily do X damage over Y time, it does Z damage every 3 seconds for Q seconds. Z is increased by your force power and whatnot, and the tooltip is worded to make calculations and comparisons regarding total damage easier. The increased duration won't change Z, but will increase Q by 6 seconds, increasing total damage. However, the true test of this is going a build that doesn't include the increased duration and has one point left over, testing the damage per tick of weaken mind, then putting the last point (or two) into the extended duration, then checking the damage per tick. If the damage per tick is lower, then it really is a silly skill. If it's the same, it works as I thought above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corran Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 (edited) you dont know what you're tlaking about. you said For the slow of wit that means two extra ticks of damage per cast. Breaking it down further if (random numbers) Mind Crush has five ticks at 100 damage per tick it will do 500 damage, then with two points it will tick seven times and do 700 damage. . and i'm telling you that's not how it works at all. i just tested it right now. went out in the world with only one point in disturb mind. put the second point in and the dmg per tick dropped meaning the talents only make the dot last longer, they dont increase it's overall damage at all because the per tick damage drops to compensate for the longer duration. imo this is actually not how it should work. Edited January 21, 2012 by Corran Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Borobob Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 does not work this way just now - weaken mind 796 dmg over 18 seconds add second point in thalent now says - 796 dmg over 21 seconds the dmg stays the same, lowing the amount per tick but making it last longer /bug the tooltip then. The damage per tick stays the same and you gain a tick per point in the talent. I played around alot with the dots, unless something changed with 1.1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corran Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 /bug the tooltip then. The damage per tick stays the same and you gain a tick per point in the talent. I played around alot with the dots, unless something changed with 1.1 something must have changed then because my dmg per tick dropped about 20 pts or so Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Borobob Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 something must have changed then because my dmg per tick dropped about 20 pts or so Well that's bogus. I'd definitely bug it then. Won't get to test for myself for another week or so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onager Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 something must have changed then because my dmg per tick dropped about 20 pts or so You must have let your buff drop between tests. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corran Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 You must have let your buff drop between tests. actually i had to relog 3 times for it to take Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clyfred Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 (edited) Reading through this thread gave me the impression that I would eventually get to a accurate result when it came to this question. Speculations and variaty in testing doesn't give accurate results, repetition and calculations do. To "dumb it down" (as was used earlier) when something in your test takes an uncalculated turn, the test is invalid, therefore a second and third test should take place to verify the results. And I mean a second and a third instead of the invalid one. If you decide to conduct a test, you should always do more than one to take into account the variety of the matter in question. Seeing as it just turned into a cockfight (the illegal LITTERATE kind) I'll take the matter into my own hands and test this myself to ensure it's done with 100% accuracy and with no questionable results or speculations on any part. I'll get back to you on this, because this thread needs it. And next time, please remember that we are all here as the same class representatives, we have a community to uphold, it's on a too shaky ground already. We have a question here and I'm willing to bet that there are more than the people that posted here out there that wants this question answered. 1.1 is out, time to set this matter settled, agreed? --Cly PS: I mean no offense to any of the earlier posters in this thread, so you all know that fact. Edited January 22, 2012 by Clyfred Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clyfred Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 (edited) WEAKEN MIND - DURATION TEST - RESULTS CLARIFICATION: The test was completed on a 50 sage with Force Valor and Force Might, which was present during the entire testing phase. Buffs, gear, debuffs and skill setup do impact the damage of your abilites and what your tooltip states, the damage YOUR tooltip shows MAY differ from these numbers. To reach Disturb Mind I spent 2 points in Mental Longevity and 3 points in Inner Strength I left the rest of the points unused. I wore my equipment and didn't change anything during the testing session. THE NUMBERS: Disturb Mind 0/2 - 1413 over 15 seconds. | Test 1: 235 | 391 | 391 | 235 | 235 | Total damage done for Test 1: 1487 | | Test 2: 235 | 235 | 235 | 391 | 391 | Total damage done for Test 2: 1487 | | Test 3: 235 | 235 | 235 | 391 | 235 | Total damage done for Test 3: 1331 | | Test 4: 235 | 235 | 235 | 235 | 235 | Total damage done for Test 4: 1175 | | Test 5: 391 | 235 | 235 | 235 | 235 | Total damage done for Test 5: 1331 | | Test 6: 391 | 235 | 235 | 235 | 235 | Total damage done for Test 6: 1331 | | Test 7: 391 | 235 | 235 | 235 | 235 | Total damage done for Test 7: 1331 | Average damage per 3rd second: 287 Average total damage done: 1353 Disturb Mind 1/2 - 1413 over 18 seconds. | Test 1: 235 | 235 | 235 | 235 | 235 | 391 | Total damage done for Test 1: 1566 | | Test 2: 391 | 391 | 235 | 235 | 235 | 391 | Total damage done for Test 2: 1878 | | Test 3: 235 | 391 | 235 | 391 | 235 | 235 | Total damage done for Test 3: 1722 | | Test 4: 235 | 235 | 235 | 235 | 391 | 235 | Total damage done for Test 4: 1566 | | Test 5: 235 | 235 | 391 | 235 | 391 | 235 | Total damage done for Test 5: 1722 | | Test 6: 391 | 235 | 235 | 235 | 235 | 235 | Total damage done for Test 6: 1566 | | Test 7: 391 | 235 | 235 | 235 | 235 | 235 | Total damage done for Test 7: 1566 | Average damage per 3rd second: 291 Average total damage done: 1655 Disturb Mind 2/2 - 1413 over 21 seconds. | Test 1: 391 | 235 | 235 | 235 | 235 | 235 | 235 | Total damage done for Test 1: 1801 | | Test 2: 235 | 235 | 235 | 235 | 235 | 235 | 391 | Total damage done for Test 2: 1801 | | Test 3: 235 | 235 | 391 | 391 | 235 | 235 | 235 | Total damage done for Test 3: 1957 | | Test 4: 391 | 235 | 391 | 235 | 235 | 235 | 235 | Total damage done for Test 4: 1957 | | Test 5: 235 | 235 | 235 | 235 | 235 | 235 | 235 | Total damage done for Test 5: 1645 | | Test 6: 235 | 235 | 235 | 235 | 235 | 235 | 391 | Total damage done for Test 6: 1801 | | Test 7: 391 | 235 | 235 | 391 | 235 | 235 | 235 | Total damage done for Test 7: 1957 | Average damage per 3rd second: 281 Average total damage done: 1846 SUMMARY: The test was completed under the same conditions during the entire testing session. Nothing changed or impacted the way this test was preformed, no disconnect, delay or lag of any sort. I noted every single number and the test took a roughly estimated 10 minutes. 391 are crits, 235 are regular hits, I calculated the average damage per tic as a total and the total damage done, 2 calculations for each testing phase, the results of the calculations for each phase is stated below the designated phase. CONCLUSION: The conclusion being that the tooltip does not state the damage increase of the ability, only the length. For each point spent in Disturb Mind you get one extra tic, providing additional damage. The damage stated on the tooltip does NOT even out over the period, your damage per tic will NOT get lowered to fit the stated value on the tooltip. You do NOT lose any damage by placing points in this skill, you gain more damage over a longer period of time. I hope this was useful information and answered the question at hand. Until next time. --Cly Edited January 22, 2012 by Clyfred Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maniac Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Thank you for doing that Cly. Appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OolonColluphid Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 WEAKEN MIND - DURATION TEST - RESULTS CLARIFICATION: The test was completed on a 50 sage with Force Valor and Force Might, which was present during the entire testing phase. Buffs, gear, debuffs and skill setup do impact the damage of your abilites and what your tooltip states, the damage YOUR tooltip shows MAY differ from these numbers. To reach Disturb Mind I spent 2 points in Mental Longevity and 3 points in Inner Strength I left the rest of the points unused. I wore my equipment and didn't change anything during the testing session. THE NUMBERS: Disturb Mind 0/2 - 1413 over 15 seconds. | Test 1: 235 | 391 | 391 | 235 | 235 | Total damage done for Test 1: 1487 | | Test 2: 235 | 235 | 235 | 391 | 391 | Total damage done for Test 2: 1487 | | Test 3: 235 | 235 | 235 | 391 | 235 | Total damage done for Test 3: 1331 | | Test 4: 235 | 235 | 235 | 235 | 235 | Total damage done for Test 4: 1175 | | Test 5: 391 | 235 | 235 | 235 | 235 | Total damage done for Test 5: 1331 | | Test 6: 391 | 235 | 235 | 235 | 235 | Total damage done for Test 6: 1331 | | Test 7: 391 | 235 | 235 | 235 | 235 | Total damage done for Test 7: 1331 | Average damage per 3rd second: 287 Average total damage done: 1353 Disturb Mind 1/2 - 1413 over 18 seconds. | Test 1: 235 | 235 | 235 | 235 | 235 | 391 | Total damage done for Test 1: 1566 | | Test 2: 391 | 391 | 235 | 235 | 235 | 391 | Total damage done for Test 2: 1878 | | Test 3: 235 | 391 | 235 | 391 | 235 | 235 | Total damage done for Test 3: 1722 | | Test 4: 235 | 235 | 235 | 235 | 391 | 235 | Total damage done for Test 4: 1566 | | Test 5: 235 | 235 | 391 | 235 | 391 | 235 | Total damage done for Test 5: 1722 | | Test 6: 391 | 235 | 235 | 235 | 235 | 235 | Total damage done for Test 6: 1566 | | Test 7: 391 | 235 | 235 | 235 | 235 | 235 | Total damage done for Test 7: 1566 | Average damage per 3rd second: 291 Average total damage done: 1655 Disturb Mind 2/2 - 1413 over 21 seconds. | Test 1: 391 | 235 | 235 | 235 | 235 | 235 | 235 | Total damage done for Test 1: 1801 | | Test 2: 235 | 235 | 235 | 235 | 235 | 235 | 391 | Total damage done for Test 2: 1801 | | Test 3: 235 | 235 | 391 | 391 | 235 | 235 | 235 | Total damage done for Test 3: 1957 | | Test 4: 391 | 235 | 391 | 235 | 235 | 235 | 235 | Total damage done for Test 4: 1957 | | Test 5: 235 | 235 | 235 | 235 | 235 | 235 | 235 | Total damage done for Test 5: 1645 | | Test 6: 235 | 235 | 235 | 235 | 235 | 235 | 391 | Total damage done for Test 6: 1801 | | Test 7: 391 | 235 | 235 | 391 | 235 | 235 | 235 | Total damage done for Test 7: 1957 | Average damage per 3rd second: 281 Average total damage done: 1846 SUMMARY: The test was completed under the same conditions during the entire testing session. Nothing changed or impacted the way this test was preformed, no disconnect, delay or lag of any sort. I noted every single number and the test took a roughly estimated 10 minutes. 391 are crits, 235 are regular hits, I calculated the average damage per tic as a total and the total damage done, 2 calculations for each testing phase, the results of the calculations for each phase is stated below the designated phase. CONCLUSION: The conclusion being that the tooltip does not state the damage increase of the ability, only the length. For each point spent in Disturb Mind you get one extra tic, providing additional damage. The damage stated on the tooltip does NOT even out over the period, your damage per tic will NOT get lowered to fit the stated value on the tooltip. You do NOT lose any damage by placing points in this skill, you gain more damage over a longer period of time. I hope this was useful information and answered the question at hand. Until next time. --Cly And this, my friends, is how you theorycraft. Great work and thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWBinGA Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Fantastic work Clyfred! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archaegeo Posted January 23, 2012 Author Share Posted January 23, 2012 Fantastic numbers. Now if they could just tick faster. The problem with bal is the 18 sec of sever, 21 sec of mind, and 8 sec of crush seldom get to run their course before you are long dead. But thanks very much for doing the hard number run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cybrielle Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 And this, my friends, is how you theorycraft. Great work and thank you. Probably sounds nit-picky, but technically this wasn't theorycrafting. Theory crafting is working strictly with theoretical numbers. What this person did would be categorized as Live Testing. He went in-game and did live testing and recorded actual numbers and used those to calculate the results. Far more accurate than theory crafting. Thanks OP! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dyngrin Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Clyfred, thanks for the actual numbers showing how Disturb Mind works. A sanity check of the percent increase in time being roughly equal to the percent increase in damage confirms that the DPS remains the same no matter how many points you put in DM, but the total damage increases due to the extra time/tics (as expected but missing from the tooltip). --Master Dyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pyradius Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 It's fine to post actual numbers, but this question was answered pretty early into the thread. DPS stays the same, but it gets additional ticks so total damage is increased. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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