The worste thing for PvP in recent MMO's is PvP gear. Explained.

[Vlaid]

Any system that makes raiding gear better than pvp gear, for PVP, is completely -stupid-.

[Krylaancelo]

Yes. This is a good suggestion! However, why not go all the way and remove Expertise?

 

PvE:

+100 Aim

+100 Endurance

+80 Accuracy

+35 Crit

 

PvP:

+100 Aim

+100 Endurance

+65 Crit

+65 Surge

 

 

I know it seems difficult to imagine BioWare removing expertise. But let us aim high! The results might be better than if we aim low.

 

Again... If PvE gear is equal to or better than PvP gear for PvP, it really negates the entire point of PvP gear. It should always be the best gear for PvP, period.

 

You PvP to get PvP gear and to enjoy and excel at PvP. You PvE to get PvE gear and to enjoy and excel at PvE. If you enjoy both, guess what, you have to do both.

 

Just like if you enjoy Mercenary but go Powertech, you have to go re-level.

[chungkuo]

Good post. I've said similar things elsewhere and agree with you.

 

The problem lies with trying to cram the PvP peg into the PvE hole. It doesn't really work. It could be argued that the other direction works better, but there are still scaling issues in PvE.

 

One option nobody ever seems to mention is: why not just have abilities work differently if your target is a player? I believe this is the plan for GW2. This creates a development challenge but I don't think it would be harder than say, making a mob immune to interrupt. Let's just say it is doable.

 

You wouldn't need a stupid PvP stat and it wouldn't matter where the gear came from. When that Bounty Hunter spams tracer missile, it could hit a boss for 5K and only do 1K in a warzone.

 

Until I force pull him and stab a lightsaber in his face.

[Krylaancelo]

Any system that makes raiding gear better than pvp gear, for PVP, is completely -stupid-.

 

I'd go a step further and say better OR EQUAL.

 

And I agree with you x1000.

[ComeAndSee]

The best pvp experience I had in an MMO was vanilla WoW, I stopped PvPing after the PvP stat came out, don't even remember the name of it and I played through to Cataclysm haha.

 

Problem in Vanilla WoW was that PvE gear outscaled what was available to those who purely PvP'd. To sum it up, PvE gear was the best PvP gear which wasn't right.

 

With PvP stats it always makes PvP gear better than PvE, but its weird in SWTOR. You gain the same amount of damage done + taken reduction so two people with the same Expertise cancel each other other. I guess it helps keep things balanced in a 1:1 situation instead of certain classes favoring high amount of Expertise and others wearing more PvE.

Edited January 19, 2012 by ComeAndSee

[AssistSenn]

I didn't read your post but I completely agree with the title. Please go back to the old school DAoC style of PvP rewards. Item rewards are such a terrible idea for any PvP player. Why exactly does this game need Expertise anyways? Even if all I did was PvP(so far) I still would rather have stat/skill rewards rather than the gear rewards.

[Krylaancelo]

Good post. I've said similar things elsewhere and agree with you.

 

The problem lies with trying to cram the PvP peg into the PvE hole. It doesn't really work. It could be argued that the other direction works better, but there are still scaling issues in PvE.

 

One option nobody ever seems to mention is: why not just have abilities work differently if your target is a player? I believe this is the plan for GW2. This creates a development challenge but I don't think it would be harder than say, making a mob immune to interrupt. Let's just say it is doable.

 

You wouldn't need a stupid PvP stat and it wouldn't matter where the gear came from. When that Bounty Hunter spams tracer missile, it could hit a boss for 5K and only do 1K in a warzone.

 

Until I force pull him and stab a lightsaber in his face.

 

I sort of like this idea and supported it when people discussed it with WoW.

 

However, the issue then becomes that it is an ENTIRELY different game between PvP and PvE even to the point that all of your abilities work differently. This would make the learning curve for PvP steeper. I don't really have a problem with that but it would be a big disorienting switching between PvE and PvP if all of your abilities do different damage and/or cause different CC and status effects.

[BDutch]

The best pvp experience I had in an MMO was vanilla WoW, I stopped PvPing after the PvP stat came out, don't even remember the name of it and I played through to Cataclysm haha.

 

Same. Every once in a while I do a search to see if Blizz by some freak miracle has announced they plan to release a pre-BC server type. I realize this isn't going to happen, but such is my desperation.

 

I'd take any class, any level of gear to deal with in vanilla WoW. The big difference being you know there is an end to the otherwise endless treadmill. I can (and have, and will) deal with gearing up to compete, but doing it multiple times to do the same thing you did before on the same level you did before in PvP just strikes me as a complete waste of time.

[Krylaancelo]

I didn't read your post but I completely agree with the title. Please go back to the old school DAoC style of PvP rewards. Item rewards are such a terrible idea for any PvP player. Why exactly does this game need Expertise anyways? Even if all I did was PvP(so far) I still would rather have stat/skill rewards rather than the gear rewards.

 

You should probably read before commenting.

[Tritemius]

people are not zerging illum for fun, they are doing it because they are rewarded for it.

pvp gear / expertise is staying so here is how to make a better system of it

qfft.

[Krylaancelo]

Same. Every once in a while I do a search to see if Blizz by some freak miracle has announced they plan to release a pre-BC server type. I realize this isn't going to happen, but such is my desperation.

 

I'd take any class, any level of gear to deal with in vanilla WoW. The big difference being you know there is an end to the otherwise endless treadmill. I can (and have, and will) deal with gearing up to compete, but doing it multiple times to do the same thing you did before on the same level you did before in PvP just strikes me as a complete waste of time.

 

Part of the issue is too that we all have our rose-tinted glasses on when it comes to vanilla WoW. I loved it too but it is so often stated to have been the "golden time" for the game. Honestly, I don't think we would like it that much if we went back to it now. We just have such fond memories that it completely clouds our ability to objectively determine how great it would be now.

[GrandMike]

Why is it so hard to read these days? The OP said the gear would be balanced between PvP and PvE, thus, PvE gear would not have more stats than PvP gear. Instead it would have different set bonuses and a possible shift in stats from one to the other. Example:

 

PvE Gear might have

+100 Aim

+100 Endurance

+75 Accuracy

+25 Crit

+10 Expertise

 

And PvP Gear might have

+100 Aim

+100 Enduarnce

+50 Crit

+50 Surge

+30 Expertise

 

Oooh, no he said "put some expertise on PvE gear". Yes, hard to read. Because gear IS balanced atm.

 

PvP - expertise and lesser stats

PvE - no expertise and better stats (25% more to be precise)

 

Part of the issue is too that we all have our rose-tinted glasses on when it comes to vanilla WoW. I loved it too but it is so often stated to have been the "golden time" for the game. Honestly, I don't think we would like it that much if we went back to it now. We just have such fond memories that it completely clouds our ability to objectively determine how great it would be now.

 

Yah, going around in raid gear one shotting everyone was great. I guess they want that precious feeling back.

Edited January 19, 2012 by GrandMike

[Kryptorchid]

It is also important to realize why a PvP stat was added to WoW, and why any game that launches with a PvP stat is not well designed from a functionality standpoint.

 

WoW introduced PvP Gear because Raiders were using their loot and just ROFLpwning people left and right. Those players that only PvP'd had to have a way to compete, so Blizzard introduced PvP gear that rivaled PvE gear (no PvP-stat). A new problem arose because people were now gearing themselves up in PvP and going into Raids. This pissed off Raiders because they felt they had to PvP inorder to compete in Raids, since it was quicker to gear up in PvP.

 

In come Resilience, to differentiate PvP gear from PvE gear. With this stat PvP gear was no longer useful in Raids, so you had to Raid to get good PvE gear. Additionally, the Resilience stat became the most appealing PvP stat, so you had to PvP to get good PvP gear. All is wonderful, right? Wrong...

 

A new problem reared its head, and that was the problem of balance. Because this new PvP stat was so good, because this PvP was so varied, Blizzard created a system where new players to PvP were steamrolled by people who spent a lot of time in it. In order for a new player to become competitive in PvP, they needed to compete against the players who had the best gear. To give a PvE analogy, this would be like having a tiered Raiding system where, as new tiers open up, the gear from the previous ones are unavailable and you must fight that tier 5 boss in your max level greens.

 

So, in trying to solve the problem of a PvE to PvP gear gap, Blizzard introduced a new gear gap that hurt only people interested in participating in PvP. This gear gate has had adverse effects and is a result of any game that has an ever increasing PvP stat.

 

So now that we understand how the PvP stat came to be, let me briefly explain why any game launching with a PvP stat is poorly designed.

 

You see how the PvP stat came from a sequence of events where, basically, PvP and PvE gear was not equal for PvP and it was equal in PvE (thus pissign off both camps). To me, this clearly shows how gear needs to be the same in PvP, but different in PvE, thus screaming for a PvE stat that is the sole increasing stat between content tiers.

 

 

..But what do I know...?

[BDutch]

Part of the issue is too that we all have our rose-tinted glasses on when it comes to vanilla WoW. I loved it too but it is so often stated to have been the "golden time" for the game. Honestly, I don't think we would like it that much if we went back to it now. We just have such fond memories that it completely clouds our ability to objectively determine how great it would be now.

 

Ehhh I get what you're saying, but that's more how I remember UO and EQ1. I've had a lot of fun in MMOs before and since WoW, and I've went back to play the ones that stayed the same and were updated. Vanilla WoW to MMOs for me is like Counterstrike to FPS'. I like to try new things, but it's also fun to go back to a staple frozen in time.

[Gwal]

It is also important to realize why a PvP stat was added to WoW, and why any game that launches with a PvP stat is not well designed from a functionality standpoint.

 

WoW introduced PvP Gear because Raiders were using their loot and just ROFLpwning people left and right. Those players that only PvP'd had to have a way to compete, so Blizzard introduced PvP gear that rivaled PvE gear (no PvP-stat). A new problem arose because people were now gearing themselves up in PvP and going into Raids. This pissed off Raiders because they felt they had to PvP inorder to compete in Raids, since it was quicker to gear up in PvP.

 

In come Resilience, to differentiate PvP gear from PvE gear. With this stat PvP gear was no longer useful in Raids, so you had to Raid to get good PvE gear. Additionally, the Resilience stat became the most appealing PvP stat, so you had to PvP to get good PvP gear. All is wonderful, right? Wrong...

 

A new problem reared its head, and that was the problem of balance. Because this new PvP stat was so good, because this PvP was so varied, Blizzard created a system where new players to PvP were steamrolled by people who spent a lot of time in it. In order for a new player to become competitive in PvP, they needed to compete against the players who had the best gear. To give a PvE analogy, this would be like having a tiered Raiding system where, as new tiers open up, the gear from the previous ones are unavailable and you must fight that tier 5 boss in your max level greens.

 

So, in trying to solve the problem of a PvE to PvP gear gap, Blizzard introduced a new gear gap that hurt only people interested in participating in PvP. This gear gate has had adverse effects and is a result of any game that has an ever increasing PvP stat.

 

So now that we understand how the PvP stat came to be, let me briefly explain why any game launching with a PvP stat is poorly designed.

 

You see how the PvP stat came from a sequence of events where, basically, PvP and PvE gear was not equal for PvP and it was equal in PvE (thus pissign off both camps). To me, this clearly shows how gear needs to be the same in PvP, but different in PvE, thus screaming for a PvE stat that is the sole increasing stat between content tiers.

 

 

..But what do I know...?

 

Excellent post.

[TugGray]

Ok first off i like balance, don't get me wrong you want in a fair fight odds to be even then it becomes skill based.

 

I would like to see PVP split in to 4 parts.

 

Lv 10 to 49 bracket

basicly buffed players to match higher levels but gear dependent bonus and skill play will make the battle unbalanced dependent on players in each team

 

lv 50 Competative bracket

open pvp for lv 50s gear dependent bonuses and skilled players will decide the winning team

 

 

lv 50 ranked guild bracket

Premaid guild Vs guild battles that will also grant rewards to the guild aswell as players. (vanity items reward titles for the guild etc.) Guilds may also set times when the guild que is active and select other guilds to face or join ladders for Ranked rewards. (highly competative play)

 

Lv 50 Skill play

 

All WZs give players the same stat balanced gear bonuses reguardless of gear balance will be class/tallent based rather then gear and all players will be given no level bennifit to make a skill only match up.

[Ballroom]

Pardon me for being a Nubbie at MMO and PvP, but let me ask a single question:

 

Why the **** do you need to have special types of PvP and PvE gear? Especially if some of it is significantly better than some of the other stuff!?

 

What is the point? Sure, it adds a level of "questing for better gear" to the game, but at the same time it also just makes sure that people who are new to PvP will be slaughtered by the PvP veterans, due to their better gear. It screws up the fun for people who have not been a part of the "armsrace" from the beginning.

 

So again. Why the **** have special super gear for PVP and/or PvE? Why not just let peple use their normal gear PvE, and let the gameplay be the reason for people to play, rather than the quest for better gear.

[Cynan_Ski]

Wow had that cool thing that only 1 player per faction per server could get the best gear per week . i think it was given out by pvp rank.

[Gwal]

Pardon me for being a Nubbie at MMO and PvP, but let me ask a single question:

 

Why the **** do you need to have special types of PvP and PvE gear? Especially if some of it is significantly better than some of the other stuff!?

 

What is the point? Sure, it adds a level of "questing for better gear" to the game, but at the same time it also just makes sure that people who are new to PvP will be slaughtered by the PvP veterans, due to their better gear. It screws up the fun for people who have not been a part of the "armsrace" from the beginning.

 

So again. Why the **** have special super gear for PVP and/or PvE? Why not just let peple use their normal gear PvE, and let the gameplay be the reason for people to play, rather than the quest for better gear.

 

Your question is already answered in the thread. I will paraphrase though.

 

-WoW had PvE and PvP

 

-People that did PvE raids got gear that gave them a huge advantage in PvP

 

-Hardcore PvP'ers complained this was ruining the aspect of the game they enjoyed

 

-WoW introduced PvP stats so that they could balance PvE and PvP gear separately

 

-Having different gear for different things became an expected feature for WoW exWoW players in all MMO's from that point onwards.

 

-MMO's that tried to make this a standard feature rather than a fix all died one by one.

[Dominemesis]

I agree that PVP and PVE end game gear should be on point, I don't think the two should be so heavily segregated. There should just be end game gear. Hell make it the same gear, just obtained through different means and ditch a 'PVP stat". Then you are just dealing with folks who have gear, no matter how they played to get it, versus those who don't.

 

That was one thing that got real old in WoW was it wasn't one smooth game, it was several different games. You could PvP, or Raid, or Craft (sub par stuff), or Heroics.

 

This way a high end PVP'er could still do well if, god forbid, he ever set foot in an OP or FP, and vice versa for a PVE'er stepping into a WZ. And without a specific PVP stat, as folks start gearing up from anywhere, there won't be this inability to have even a remote chance in hell of competing against someone in high end gear. Don't get me wrong, high end gear should be an advantage, but as the failing lvl 50 bracket has shown, it doesn't work when its an insurmountable advantage as folks are finding it to be.

 

I was pleased to see the pvp system when I first logged in that enabled everyone from 10-50 to play in Warzones, I thought,"That's brilliant, what a good way to maximize your population at all levels and enable healthy queues and plenty of players" that has pretty much been ended by gear disparity and the bracketing at 50. But I digress and am getting off topic.

 

TL;DR: Make the high end gear from PVE and PVP basically all the same gear and stop segregating and treating those two playstyles like separate games unto themselves. Also remove the PVP stat, and even out the gearing and leveling scaling so that the advantage of end game gear is good but not insurmountable.

[Scrutment]

Going to go ahead and throw DAoC up in here. Anyone who didn't get a chance to experience PvP in DAoC missed out on a beautiful thing.

 

Gear in recent MMOs have severely ruined PvP. It's all about the gear. Hell, it's that way for every aspect of the game. It's like people have to have new things to put on themselves every month or so, or they won't feel like they are accomplishing anything.

 

Which brings me to one of the reasons DAoC had it right; player crafted gear being most of what you used. Sure you would go and round up a few things from a certain quest or dungeon, but the majority of what you would use would be player crafted. This went for armor, weapons, and all the enchants it will have on it. Which actually made crafting profitable, and worth something other than a single item you get in some tradeskill that is otherwise useless. Tradeskills, however, are another story.

 

No PvP stats. No edge over anyone else. The only edge anyone had over anyone was being a significantly higher rank (Which equaled to more realm skills. The only things you got for getting higher ranks). Even then a skilled player still at least stood a good chance. It was about the skill of the player. Not what awesome gear he had. You hit 50, you get your armor crafted and spellcrafted, and you go PvP. You keep that armor until the day in the far away future that it was unable to be repaired anymore. (Which took a long, long time)

 

No new gear sets every month. No new hurdles to make people jump just to be able to compete again. Just PvP. That's all anyone really wants. Instead we get Warzones/Battlegrounds/Scenarios/whatever you want to call them which doesn't promote world PvP at all, world PvP areas that don't work because of them and other various problems, and a never ending assortment of gear that has no choice but to continue to come out and be more powerful than the last because that's what the game is designed around.

 

Alas, we can all sit here and talk about how it should be. There are some great ideas out there, and some equally bad ones. Bioware will need to take a huge leap and break the terrible mold that WoW has set to really make a difference in the game's PvP. Unfortunately that is very, very rare for a company to do.

[Cynan_Ski]

And Warhammer online spawned into... Warhammer online wrath of heroes Maybe we can have SWTOR spawn into Starwars the New Empire online wrath of PvP i dunno abit of trolling but honestly all these suggestions and a few of mine earlier almost seems to wanna boot the "Hardcore" pvp'ers to thier own server.