Do you support an in game version of Recount. Please give reasons for your answer.

[alike]

I do support this, but i want it to be visible to the player alone and not shared with all other players. And i don't want to be able to post my results in the chat, simply because that would lead to "LFM to ... , you need to have 10k DPS and 6k GS"

 

Just give us Personal DPS-meter and some target dummies so we can test our DPS and rotations.

[Nexusissei]

I do support this, but i want it to be visible to the player alone and not shared with all other players. And i don't want to be able to post my results in the chat, simply because that would lead to "LFM to ... , you need to have 10k DPS and 6k GS"

 

Just give us Personal DPS-meter and some target dummies so we can test our DPS and rotations.

 

There's a good reason that groups in WoW advertise needing to have X DPS. That's because if the group doesn't meet that minimum, you will not beat the enrage timer.

[alike]

There's a good reason that groups in WoW advertise needing to have X DPS. That's because if the group doesn't meet that minimum, you will not beat the enrage timer.

 

I have to agree on this. but i still believe that the kind of attitude we see in wow should be avoided in this game, even if that means keeping DPS meters out of the game

[Nexusissei]

I have to agree on this. but i still believe that the kind of attitude we see in wow should be avoided in this game, even if that means keeping DPS meters out of the game

 

I think you're trying to tie together two completely unrelated things. Nobody likes dying over and over in a hopeless fight. Taking someone who is under-geared or doesn't play their class well can be like taking someone who's 35 to the Eternity Vault.

[well]

Hey,

 

The community is asking for mods. DPS, Healing, Threat, Bar Mods, ECT. If you don't want to use MODS you DON'T have to use them. People will know if you are bad or not without the help of a mod.

 

In your video Bioware you said that you are listening to the community. From what I've seen there is a ton of people on these forums asking & pleading for mods/macros. When you are fixing the UI in the upcoming patches please add the ability to use mods.

 

 

For the people who are against Mods/Macro's "YOU DO NOT HAVE TO USE THEM". Do not try and censor a game that everyone pays a monthly fee to play. If you don't support mods/macro's then it won't affect you either way if they implement them. Guilds/Groups will know if your not pulling your weight without having to use mods. So don't try and make those excuses.

 

A HUGE population of players are demanding for the support of mods! We are paying the monthly fee just like everyone else! If you support mods/macros please get all your friends/guilds and start posting on this thread. Bioware stated "It listens to the community" so community start posting over and over till we get what we want/deserve.

 

Wurth

 

Some people don't get that.It is hard for some to understand that it is a choice they can make.I won't use it but because someone else does why should it bother me.How you play your game is your business how I play is mine.As long as it is with in BW's guidelines that is all that counts.

[alike]

I think you're trying to tie together two completely unrelated things. Nobody likes dying over and over in a hopeless fight. Taking someone who is under-geared or doesn't play their class well can be like taking someone who's 35 to the Eternity Vault.

 

Yes, you are right about the "Nobody likes dying over and over in a hopeless fight", but what we see in wow is people leaving after one wipe because they don't believe that the party can do it. Sometimes this is because one in the party is under-geard. You know what i miss? I miss the days in vanilla where it took 100 wipes to down a boss. That really made the players with epic items proud

 

Edit: Do you like that attitude that i have marked in bold?

Edited January 21, 2012 by alike

[Nexusissei]

Yes, you are right about the "Nobody likes dying over and over in a hopeless fight", but what we see in wow is people leaving after one wipe because the don't believe that the party can do it. Sometimes this is because one in the party is under-geard. You know what i miss? I miss the days in vanilla where it took 100 wipes to down a boss. That really made the players with epic items proud

 

My first comment that you're trying to tie two things together that aren't exclusive to one another still stands. People don't leave after one wipe because of what they see in their meters. They quit because they do not feel that the group knows the mechanics of the fight, and they don't care to spend the money on a pug. Furthermore, this isn't a general "group" mentality, this is a pug mentality whereas a guild mentality tends to be the opposite. In a guild you put in the time on "progression nights" to learn the content with your guildmates. Pugs tend to be far behind what good guilds are doing.

Edited January 21, 2012 by Nexusissei

[alike]

My first comment that you're trying to tie two things together that aren't exclusive to one another still stands. People don't leave after one wipe because of what they see in their meters. They quit because they do not feel that the group knows the mechanics of the fight, and they don't care to spend the money on a pug. Furthermore, this isn't a general "group" mentality, this is a pug mentality whereas a guild mentality tends to be the opposite. In a guild you put in the time on "progression nights" to learn the content with your guildmates. Pugs tend to be far behind what good guilds are doing.

 

English isn't my native language, so i sometimes seem to struggle with expressing myself. Sorry about that

 

I see what you mean, but I'm afraid that mentality will follow with DPS meters. Why? Because the players have something to blame and have a better excuse to leave the group

[Nexusissei]

English isn't my native language, so i sometimes seem to struggle with expressing myself. Sorry about that

 

I see what you mean, but I'm afraid that mentality will follow with DPS meters. Why? Because the players have something to blame and have a better excuse to leave the group

 

No worries as long as you see what I'm saying now.

 

I understand that you're afraid that the mentality will come with DPS meters, but your fear doesn't follow logic. There's no reason that having a DPS meter will change the attitude of people.

[alike]

No worries as long as you see what I'm saying now.

 

I understand that you're afraid that the mentality will come with DPS meters, but your fear doesn't follow logic. There's no reason that having a DPS meter will change the attitude of people.

 

If the DPS meter act's like the one we had in vanilla, then its all fine

[wikimon]

English isn't my native language, so i sometimes seem to struggle with expressing myself. Sorry about that

 

I see what you mean, but I'm afraid that mentality will follow with DPS meters. Why? Because the players have something to blame and have a better excuse to leave the group

 

no one ever needs an excuse to leave a pick-up group. they just leave.

 

if people are going to leave after a wipe with a meter, they would have left after a wipe without one. the good thing with the meter is, after a wipe you can TELL if the problem is a fixable one, and get that done.

[Nexusissei]

If the DPS meter act's like the one we had in vanilla, then its all fine

 

I don't recall any difference between the DPS meters from vanilla and the ones we use now. That aside, there's still no logic connecting a person's attitude and a DPS meter.

[Almagnus]

no one ever needs an excuse to leave a pick-up group. they just leave.

 

if people are going to leave after a wipe with a meter, they would have left after a wipe without one. the good thing with the meter is, after a wipe you can TELL if the problem is a fixable one, and get that done.

 

Or you wind up with the exact opposite problem, like some of the stuff that happens in LotRO.

 

Say we have a PUG fellow of six (normal LotRO fellow size), a tank, a captain (well executed hybrid), a healer, two hunters, and a champ (melee AE blenderizer, also interrupts extremely well). A fairly well balanced group, but a PUG none-the-less.

 

Hunter A is posting the lowest DPS, but doing everything that's not DPS related right (such as curing effects, using de-threat skills etc, and some rooting as needed). Hunter B is DPS crazy hunter that completely ignores everything else the class does, and focuses only on DPS (whihc will also generate insane threat in the game).

 

Tank is meh, rest of the group know how to compensate for the tank, except....

 

Hunter B pulls agro on the boss and keeps firing. Healer and captain pull out the big healing guns to get the hunter, hunter dies, healer gets agro and folds (light armor FTL), captain goes next cause the class can't self heal to save itself. The tank goes down without healing support, and the rest of the group shortly thereafter.

 

In this scenario, Hunter B would **actually** wind up higher on the chart than Hunter A, but Hunter A would end up getting booted because they did the least amount of DPS of the 3 DPSers (captain aren't counted for DPS, but act like a force multiplier to the group, thus it's good to have one around), when B pulled agro and effectively caused the wipe.

 

What this situation illustrates is that Recount is only one part of the picture. Sure, you can measure skills, but if all someone is doing is spamming them, without any feedback on whether or not they are using them CORRECTLY (which can be a highly subjective thing), someone can be topping the charts in several areas, but not really contributing anything.

 

Meters and numbers are (generally) overrated. Competent players that know how to build their characters, how to gear, and how to play will almost always work well enough together that the "Did we kill it and get loot?" definition of winning will be good enough, and they will generally do just that, and enjoy having fun doing so =)

[Backbones]

Adding an additional tool (in the form of a DPS meter) will not cause people to become blind to other mistakes or failures in their group.

 

If the guy pulling higher DPS is causing the group too much stress (in the form of too much damage going to places that aren't the tank, mobs running free, whatever), the group is not going to miss that information just because they have a DPS meter to reference.

[Krazeh]

In this scenario, Hunter B would **actually** wind up higher on the chart than Hunter A, but Hunter A would end up getting booted because they did the least amount of DPS of the 3 DPSers (captain aren't counted for DPS, but act like a force multiplier to the group, thus it's good to have one around), when B pulled agro and effectively caused the wipe.

 

That might be the case if the only thing Recount did show was a DPS meter but thankfully it shows far more and you'd be able to use it to find out that Hunter B was far less valuable to the group than Hunter A.

[lucasomega]

meters are so you can find out who went AFK to watch judge judy during your raid and made 39 other people waste their day.

 

Oh man, I had a hearty laugh there! Well played, sir!

 

Voting yes for recount.

 

Some of the people afraid of it that say a combat log is enough might want to hold off until we see the actual combat log. Chances are it won't give overall statistics, or periodic results.

 

Maybe I'm wrong on this, but just having the combat log with no other addons in WoW didn't tell you much of anything. Of course, it was nice to know how crazy some crits were or what killed you seemingly out of nowhere... but was it good for anything other than that without any addons? Is the SWTOR personal combat log going to be anything other than this:

 

Your Rupture hits Droid for 145.

You gain 2 fury.

Droid's Mega-blast Shot hits you for 14000.

You die.

 

I guess only time will tell.

[Nexusissei]

Or you wind up with the exact opposite problem, like some of the stuff that happens in LotRO.

 

Say we have a PUG fellow of six (normal LotRO fellow size), a tank, a captain (well executed hybrid), a healer, two hunters, and a champ (melee AE blenderizer, also interrupts extremely well). A fairly well balanced group, but a PUG none-the-less.

 

Hunter A is posting the lowest DPS, but doing everything that's not DPS related right (such as curing effects, using de-threat skills etc, and some rooting as needed). Hunter B is DPS crazy hunter that completely ignores everything else the class does, and focuses only on DPS (whihc will also generate insane threat in the game).

 

Tank is meh, rest of the group know how to compensate for the tank, except....

 

Hunter B pulls agro on the boss and keeps firing. Healer and captain pull out the big healing guns to get the hunter, hunter dies, healer gets agro and folds (light armor FTL), captain goes next cause the class can't self heal to save itself. The tank goes down without healing support, and the rest of the group shortly thereafter.

 

In this scenario, Hunter B would **actually** wind up higher on the chart than Hunter A, but Hunter A would end up getting booted because they did the least amount of DPS of the 3 DPSers (captain aren't counted for DPS, but act like a force multiplier to the group, thus it's good to have one around), when B pulled agro and effectively caused the wipe.

 

What this situation illustrates is that Recount is only one part of the picture. Sure, you can measure skills, but if all someone is doing is spamming them, without any feedback on whether or not they are using them CORRECTLY (which can be a highly subjective thing), someone can be topping the charts in several areas, but not really contributing anything.

 

Meters and numbers are (generally) overrated. Competent players that know how to build their characters, how to gear, and how to play will almost always work well enough together that the "Did we kill it and get loot?" definition of winning will be good enough, and they will generally do just that, and enjoy having fun doing so =)

 

No one (a vast majority) uses parsers on LOTRO. At the very least they don't say anything about it if they do.

 

That aside, they will kick the hunter who did all the DPS, pulled aggro and wasn't cleansing poisons long before they kick the hunter who did the opposite of all of that.

 

Even in WoW, you're not going to keep around the paladin who's not cleansing when he needs to but doing awesome DPS.

[TheSkate]

There's a good reason that groups in WoW advertise needing to have X DPS. That's because if the group doesn't meet that minimum, you will not beat the enrage timer.

 

Actually DPS requirements by WoW pugs is usually 1.5 to 2 times that required to kill content. That is why so many don't want it in this game. If you don't have the perfect build, perfect rotation and out gear the content you cannot meet the ridiculous requirements of most pugs in WoW.

End game content is not meant to be face-rolled by everyone attempting it. Have all the people whining about not having meters attempted the content they can't beat for 2-3 weeks in a row. Hell no.

What they really want is to join the military. They want someone to tell them what cookie cutter build they need, what rotation they have to use, and someone to tell them that if they can't cut it (doing everything perfectly) to get the hell out.

[Anathar]

no. i do not agree with any addons what so ever.

 

especially the addons that sate the egos of those that want to keep track of idiotic things like dmg done...as long as something else dies before you do why does it matter otherwise?

 

the only purpose a dmg meter serves is for elitist jackholes to aggravate others they dont think are playing they way they think they should.

 

just play the game and let everything else go...

 

we have more pressing matters to attend to rather than feeding your egos with whether youre on top of a pointless score-counter or not.

[Nexusissei]

Actually DPS requirements by WoW pugs is usually 1.5 to 2 times that required to kill content.

 

This is because pugs suck at taking out content. People are going to screw up royally and die. The higher DPS requirement helps lessen the effects of those mistakes.

 

That is why so many don't want it in this game. If you don't have the perfect build, perfect rotation and out gear the content you cannot meet the ridiculous requirements of most pugs in WoW.

 

Asking that you know your class, have your character geared for the content and actually try are ridiculous requirements?

 

End game content is not meant to be face-rolled by everyone attempting it. Have all the people whining about not having meters attempted the content they can't beat for 2-3 weeks in a row. Hell no.

What they really want is to join the military. They want someone to tell them what cookie cutter build they need, what rotation they have to use, and someone to tell them that if they can't cut it (doing everything perfectly) to get the hell out.

 

There's efficient, then there's not efficient. No one cares what rotations you use or how you play your class as long as you meet minimum expectations. Of course, if you don't play your class efficiently, you're not going to be in progression and you'll need to out-gear the content you're attempting to make up for it.

 

All it is, bottom line, is what is possible, what's impossible and what's needed. It's a simple, cold equation that you and others attempt to put feelings into when it has nothing to do with emotion. It's whether or not you can perform as part of the group.

Edited January 21, 2012 by Nexusissei

[T-Hef]

I support this, why?

 

For starters I am not a person that will kick guild members for low dps, for an example. A recount will show members who excell and those who do not in their role. This can show who needs help? What others are doing differently than others and can be imporved apon.

 

However, this system can be abused to shun and treat people like crap. Games should be fun and involved with all guild members. I see guilds as a community to help others and not shut them out.

 

Get together, kick A, improve, improve, improve!

[Nexusissei]

However, this system can be abused to shun and treat people like crap. Games should be fun and involved with all guild members. I see guilds as a community to help others and not shut them out.

 

Get together, kick A, improve, improve, improve!

 

However, guilds are not there to help those who will not help themselves. At least not guilds who are interested in current end-game content.

[Nexusissei]

Just a quick observation: It seems a lot of the detractors in this thread base their opinions on a misplaced sense of entitlement.

[Manchuwook]

I hate having to personally weigh in on this one, but there are a few things to factor in when raiding. I don't want to get into an Op/Raid where we spend the next 4 hours wiping by half the party dying by standing in stuff, getting insta-killed with debuff/coup de grace mechanics, or hitting the rage timer.

 

Those three mechanics make it so there is situational awareness, buffbar monitoring, and maintaining steady or burst DPS. If BioWare chooses not to use those mechanics, then cool, we don't need a Recount-type AddOn.

 

If, however, BW does use those mechanics - do you really want to spend the first hour constantly hitting the enrage timer with the boss at half health and expect the team to come to some magical conclusion on how to help dps do more damage? The first person to get booted from the raid is going to be the person who has the most greens - which imo is completely unfair - but what other indicator are they going to point to for evidence?

 

How do you know who threw out what coup de grace debuff/attack combo to stick on the boss?

Do you really have time to be able to identify the animations for powers and see if your raiders are chaining the right animations as a raid leader?

 

Recount saves people from wiping for 4 hours, it reduces the learning time. It gives raid leaders and option to switch from constant /headdesk'ing against progression and justify moving on to non-progression bosses. Otherwise, those elitist snobs (the con- folks have been complaining about) have plenty of unsubstantiated reasons for kicking them. Regular folks have no recourse but to accept it and try another PuG before /1 gen gets spammed with "xxPlayerxx is terribad at raids, never invite them" - and can't relate their dps/hps/tps in their defense.

Edited January 21, 2012 by Manchuwook

[TheSkate]

Just a quick observation: It seems a lot of the detractors in this thread base their opinions on a misplaced sense of entitlement.

 

But those that are demanding meters... they don't feel a sense of entitlement?

They feel they are entitled as well. To me their sense of entitlement is misplaced. To them mine is.

I say they are trying to ruin the game for me and those that want to enjoy the game as a game. They say I want to ruin the game for them by not letting them maximize their DPS.

We are both right.

I like the idea put forth earlier about making separate "metered" servers where those are the only servers that meters work. That way I can play my game and they can play their numbers. Only problem with that is BioWare/EA would have to maintain two separate clients. There is no perfect solution as either way they go they will piss off many people.